Lucky,
Go play a PA2XPRO for a few HOURS...preferably with Frank V. at Audiowerks as it sounds like your close to him?

After that I think you will want to buy one. IMHO.

Oh, I think the guitars are great..but I'm not ito distortion guitars...so I can't coment on those specifically.

Also, on the KorgPA web site there is a Korg PA80 video tutorial which is real nice.

Lee S.

Thanks guys (and Rikki) for the input here so far. I’m glad I decided to ask for help as I get zilch input from the salesmen in the music stores. But, at least I can FIND a local Korg a lot easier than I can a local Ketron SD5.

How I got turned on to the Korg sound is as follows: About a month ago I found a video cassette that Korg had sent me of this fellow Stephen Kay playing an i3 at a concert in Japan. He was doing it solo (also singing). He was so good that I could close my eyes and think he was working with a band. That impressed me considering the technology was 15 years old.
http://www.karma-lab.com/mg/ag-pd.html (the song is Glory Road, but it sounds much better on my tape as he sings and backs himself up)

Anyhow, I’m going to Sam Ash tomorrow to spend a few hours on the PA800. Unfortunately, the salesmen have already advised me they’re not conversant with it, so I’m hoping I can figure it out myself.

“Great style editing & creation functions”…yes that’s also important to me. My understanding is the Ketron is limited in that department.

Forums:
Korg user forum” scale 1-10= 10 another reason I’m partial towards Korg
Ketron user forum scale 1-10= 0

The Korg demo’s….yes, they sound a little TOO good. I’m wondering how many of them are actually MIDI files. Still the sounds are quite authentic sounding. Nice trumpets…..I love trumpets.

“But the available Korg style library was pale in comparison to the Yamaha's” Lucky: But someone said recently in another thread that although Korg doesn’t have that many styles out there, what they DO have kicks butt? What do you guys think?

Lee: I didn’t think the drums sounded thin, but then again I wasn’t really listening to them that closely, and particularly on good speakers. That’s one of the things I’m going to check out tomorrow at Sam Ash. In all fairness, I’m not crazy about the Ketron drums. My understanding is that only the Ketron Latin drum set was “recorded.” I don’t hear a lot of “punch” in them on big band. But I’m still thinking analog, as in my old Yamaha RX7 drum machine which I still have.

Diki hit the nail on the head: “I simply think that Korg have some of the most creative, 'hip' style programmers out there.”

THAT’S what’s making it sound so good. Really good styles and “rock” styles. Also I think they used top notch players to make some of those demos.

Zuki: nice comments…….very encouraging…you should be doing promotions for Korg!

I’m not downplaying the Ketron. At this point, I think they’re both good bang for the buck. But as I said, what Korg has going for it is 3 things: support, support, support….and a good deal of “visibility”…..and a FUTURE!

I’ve ruled out the Tyros, and Roland looks like it’s dropping out so I’d like to hear some more comments about your opinions on either the PA800 or the PA2x PRO if you don’t mind. This is going to be a $4,000 decision I have to make without the luxury of spending a lot of time on it in the store as they‘re not located near me. I don’t think I’m going to go with the Ketron, only because I’d feel like I’d be on an island with it here in the States.

[This message has been edited by Lucky2Bhere (edited 03-23-2009).]

Hi Steve,

I didn't know you played Korgs. I was so obsessed with the Ketron I guess I didn't hear anything else anyone said.

Yes, "big band, etc" is important to me. I do a lot of it. But my guess is that you won't see a lot of big band on any of the keyboards these days as the newer players have trouble recognizing a "waltz" even. So, I figured I'll have to do what you suggested...wing it.....work around it. (and maybe Rikki would grace me with those styles too?)

Steve....this is it for me. If I buy this Korg I'm going to spend a lot of time learning it's features...and revamp my left hand accompaniment to make use of the extra keys by playing left hand melody against the right hand. And if I DON'T go for it, maybe just an S900 or a Roland GW8.

Lucky

For $1500 or so MORE than a PA2Xpro, the Ketron's drums OUGHT to be much better than anything else out there.

And indeed, I think they are... but with a simple caveat. Most of you have heard only the 'Live Drums' demos. Recordings of real drummers playing real grooves (and apparently, putting real pickups in real Variations, which I'm not a fan of ) and fills and Intros and endings. They taped a drummer playing, essentially... It SHOULD sound great!

BUT.... forget ever using the drum playing as a source for your own edits. Forget being able to move a snare drum hit or a kick pattern around slightly to better suit another tune. Forget about being able to change the kit to a more or less aggressive sounding one with a simple PC#. Forget about turning up the toms in the fills (or down!), or tuning them to better suit the key of the song. Forget about using your own Intros and Endings, maybe copied from a MIDI file. And forget about extracting the hi-hat pattern to import to another style to give it a lift...

Oh, and forget about user created or third party styles using drummer loops (unless you are Turkish! ). Not exactly a huge selection available, out there...

You gain a lot with audio lops. But you lose a lot too. For me, at least, editability and flexibility trumps set in stone 'perfection'...

Hi Lucky,
when you check it out tomorrow, try & spot what operating system it is running.
Latest is os2.01, prior wa 1.51.
Anything earlier than that, & you're not hearing it at it's best. You also won't be hearing the new DNC voices if it's not running os2.
Operating system shows up when switching on.
Does take a minute or so till fully loaded, so don't be concerned.
Operating system & resources system
( styles & sounds ) are upgradeable (FREE download). I've done 3 to date in the last 18 months, just keeps getting better.

Korg has STS's, Yammie has OTS. Basically works the same. They both use songbooks, Korg is better. Both have pads. I again I prefer the korg system it has one additional "sync to "function that my psr 1500 doesn't.
There is an EC5 Pedal Board available, great for triggerring fills varitions etc.

Maybe worth downloading manual to get the basics? http://korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41825&sid=45d9240afd2bd45ff4c2 07ed15d02995


Ketron onboard style editing ,very basic. Sounds ,volumes stuff like that. No way of editing a wrong note. (Makes trying to edit a converted style all but impossible).
Only way of using a pc for style recording is to midi the pc to the keyboard & play the various parts ( variations, fills etc) across in realtime. Cumbersome. Trying to work out the correct midi settings, is not easy. I'm not a total idiot, but I had real problems trying to work out how to sync the two. Eventually got there.
Recording styles onboard is possible, but again hit a wrong note and you've got to rerecord the track.
It has a track copy function ( ie mix n match tracks from 2 or more styles to create a new one)only problem is, if the tracks aren't the same length ie one track is 2 bars the other is 4), it won't copy it.
Yammie & Korg both do.

Basically all the stuff my sd1 can't do as far as style editing/creating, my Korg can, and lots more.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s.
Happy to send you the styles if you decide on a korg.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:
[B]

“Great style editing & creation functions”…yes that’s also important to me. My understanding is the Ketron is limited in that department.

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-24-2009).]

A few more things since you asked:

1. I believe editing on the 800 is a snap. I love the drop down menus (think I'm on a Triton)
2. The toggle feature on the style buttons is very useful
3. The break button is incredible for live use
4. I like being able to link the harmonizer (2, 3-part with fx) to ots - oh, 2-part Everly Bros, etc - nice!
5. The 800 speakers are the very best on any 61 note keyboard
6. The pads follow in time, regardless on when engaged - forget the little imperfection on pads not ending (only a few and no big deal)
7. I love a touch screen, but that's me
8. Dual sequencer feature is pretty darn cool if ever needed & mp3 is a must
9. I thank Korg for intro/ending #2 - great to throw in your own chords
10. The styles and sounds are 2nd to none (IMO). BTW, I do many big band songs and there are plenty to choose from that work great

All said, some hate, some love - it's all up to your ears - good luck. Why don't you get on a plane and come to one of my shows

I'd better stop now before I get on a roll and offend anyone

Hi Zuki,
great to see you posting again.

I got your " hi " message the other day on Korg forum. I replied, but it's still sitting in the OutBox?? I don't seem to have a great deal of luck replying. My PM messages seem to get lost.

Anyway "Hi" back, haahaa, from one happy PA800 user to another.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zuki:
[B]

I'm back and exhausted. Let me reply to the new postings tomorrow, though I wish I had gotten to read Rikki's comments on the version of the OS.

I spent 4 hours on the PA800 and one hour on the M3. Most of the time was spent learning to navigate the 800 system (the salesman didn't know how to play it), but I have to admit I picked it up relatively easy. It functions no different than a computer...very logically. If you know MS Windows real well, you pretty much know how to get around the 800.

Unfortunately, I spent so much time "learning" how to play it, I was a little too tired to scrutinize it closely. I had just finished a gig at 3 pm. One really needs to spend a whole day going through it bit by bit.

One thing that really got me down was (after reading Lee's remark about the drums) the sound quality. I muted all the tracks and listened to the drums alone. There was no kick in the bass and no punch in the snare. I was impressed that the cymbals played themselves out to the end and didn't cut off as I heard the Ketron do. The Latin instruments sounded good, but then again they only need crispness (cowbells, timbales, etc).

The bass was strong but I didn't have the time to listen closely to see how well it emulated a real bass player.

Back to the overall sound. He ran the board through a big combo amp, but it was not a well-known name and consequently it sounded muffled. I asked for a Mackie 450 and they had a 450 V2 on the floor so we connected that. It sounded much better and still better when I EQ'd it. Yet.....it didn't sound good. To get the bass drum to sound fuller, I had to "color" the rest of the instruments.

The trumpets (remember I'm a trumpet afficionado) sounded excellent. Loved the "wash trumpet" ....did a great version of Clyde McCoy's Sugar Blues with it.

The piano sounded muffled. Some of the guitars sounded real good, some didn't. I thought the Flamenco guitar easily scored a 10.

There WAS a scarcity of "big band" styles, but then I got to a page (I forgot where) and there was another 4-5 bb's to work with. considering I only work with one in my present keyboard, that would have been a gift to me from the music Gods.

Enough of my review.

Thanks Zuki and Rikki for the additional comments. I understand what you guys are talking about more now that I’ve played on it. BTW…I’m wondering why only 3 breaks and not 4?

The PA800 didn't sound good to me. That doesn't mean it's not a good keyboard as the big 3 sell thousands of them around the world. It means, as I heard it, it didn't sound good. Then again, the Ketron didn’t sound good either, but it sounded excellent when Frankie played it and I listened from 10 feet away.

The demo's sounded good, but Donnie warned me about that.

So what's wrong here? What do you folks think? I DO know that all keyboards sound better when you're listening to them as compared to playing them. No different from a pianist. You never hear it as a listener does.

Are my being too critical? But of what use is all these bells and whistles if the basic sound (drums and bass) doesn’t drive me to play better?

I have a 4 piece EV system 300 here that I’m going to have to bring down to the store and try the 800 on it. Maybe that’s all I need….what I’m used to hearing.

The salesman made an interesting statement when I expressed my displeasure with the drums. He said they sounded fine to him. Reason being that the new generation (him being one of them) was raised on the digital, hip-hop, rap sound...thin drums....and my generation remembers thick analog drums. Consequently, we are subconsciously comparing them.

I’ll be the first to admit I’m more of a player/entertainer than I am a techie. You folks seem to know these keyboards inside out. Any comments on WHY I’m not hearing these things properly in close quarters in the store? I don’t remember having this much trouble buying a keyboard when I was doing it regularly up to about 10 years ago. Did keyboard sound technology change that much or is it simply unreal expectations on my part?

BTW…..just as I started thinking it was my hearing, I noticed a Korg M3 sitting there. I played that. The sound on it was incredible…lush strings, authentic horns, bells, guitars, etc. I understand that it’s a replacement for the Oaysis (which I was also fond of). So….it’s NOT my hearing. I mean that M3 really brought me back to life. To the point I have to consider, if I buy a new arranger, using the M3 as a 2nd keyboard for lead sounds. I played the first movement to Beethoven’s Fifth and Strauss’s Blue Danube on it using the “string orchestra.” I looked up and there was a small crowd around me…I think more to do with the M3 sound than me! That keyboard would be a killer on stage hooked up to a big P.A. system!

Zuki....you're invitation gave me an idea.

Is anyone playing a PA2x Pro in the New York Metropolitan area that I can explore the unit with?

Lucky