Hi Everybody

Just continuing a debate that my friends have been having about which arranger's best for live use from a midi's, styles ,ease of use on stage ,and sound point of view ??

I have a Tyros2 so.....I know the answer !! Ha Ha

KORG PA2x


BTW I own and PREFER the TYROS 3 for Style choice and polished overall sound as well as acoustic voices......But you asked for Live and I have to say having owned the Korg PA2X, it is my opinion it is a far far better live Keyboard than the Yamaha on many fronts.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-31-2009).]

technics KN6000!!!

t.

Has not been built Yet!

That's 3 votes for the PA2X / PA800 from my friends and fellow musicians although I feel the registration / User prg mem changing on stage is not as quick as the Yamaha's and the lack of effects......And it's damn heavy !!

For me and my needs it is the Yamaha PSR-S900.

Ian

For me and my needs it is the Yamaha
PSR-S900

dp

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-31-2009).]

I think the Yamaha's are going to win as they seem to have this side of things sewn up.

However my best friend has just come round and suggested his KN6500 is as good as it gets live. I haven't heard the technics so I will have to take his word for it.

If the KN6500 / 7000 has got the same big commanding sound that I remember from technics he could well be right !!

For me ..no comparison...

The G70 does everything and does it well..

Consensus says it does what it does the best..Vocal input with effects and a harmonizer that really works..Quality key feel and range, Great style and song tools, a great sequencer, great sounds, a great draw bar organ...the list goes on and on...If 46 pounds doesn't scare you...look at one..it is the perfect solution for me in any live situation...

Have your buddy post some songs & we'll so we can hear the "BEST" it's a simple solution to all these discussions talk is cheap.Just the word (((BEST))) in itself is fuel for the argumnet fireplace.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-31-2009).]

I must admit that the USR PRG way of working on the Roland E/G range is very easy to setup and use. I used to have an E-86 myself and had very many happy gigs.

Couple that with the great sounds and styles with effects on the Roland and this could be giving the technics and my tyros 2 a serious run for the money......although 46 pounds is very heavy and must surely lose points for live use !!

john

Funny I bought a 6500 years ago...& the next day I returned it. The Kn5000 was so much better for it's time.
But to return to the topic.....how YOU play is ALL that matters NOT the KB......but you knew that correct?

Any KB is merely an extension tool of your own talent.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-31-2009).]

I know I'm out of date but I just got tired of chasing technology so I've settled on staying with my Roland G1000's. I have three of them now. One for gigs, one to leave set up in the studio and one for the vacation house. I just use modified styles and I know it can do so much more.
Bill NJ

I should have explained , I meant best balance of features / sounds / ease of use etc for live work.

It's quite rhetorical and good natured.....
I just wanted someone to vote for the Tyros 2 really !!!!

When everyone I know has Technics / Korg

But nobody did ...... although I really like it and find it a doddle to use live, I just wish the drums and bass were a bit beefier...

What might be easy to use for you ...could very well be the worst for the next player...we are all different & do it all different....there is no right answer.....but what there is ..........
is the final product "WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE" period. There is no way around that.

Donny nailed it...

Best is a relative term...

For me a Tyros 2 is just an awesome fit...

For Jim (Zuki) right down the road, who works just as much (more) than i do, he didn't like it.



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Yep, that about sums it up, Bill...what works well for some will not be enough for others...thankfully there are lots of choices.

If it is any consolation, jazzyjohnnyb, my next choice would be a Tyros2.

Ian

to sound like a REAL band with a real drummer and sound live you cannot get better than KETRON SD5 or upcoming AUDYA

The answer is, quite simply, which ever one has the user interface you're most fluent with.

Technics KN7000, without a doubt.
KN6500 comes close but a couple of voices short & mine didn't have a hard drive so loading from floppies was too slow when gigging.

I cant believe people are still getting sucked into the Mine is better Then Yours "BEST" scenario its really humorous almost like "pull my finger" which never fails to get a laugh

It’s Deja vous all over again.
I think past discussions resulted in a tacit agreement that each arranger board has strengths and weaknesses.
I have no experience with the Roland G-70 … got as far as the G-600 and RA-800 and I have played the G-800. Roland has great sounds and styles. As for ease of navigation on a gig, the Yammies have it. For general all around sounds and styles plus the extra features like the songbook feature and the ability to have mixed media in playlists, among others - including the weight factor – Korg PA800. For live drums; Ketron with Roland not too far behind. And, never mentioned, but no slouch on a gig is the GEM Genesys series – good overall sounds and styles.
Ciao,
Jerry

S900

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-31-2009).]

Sorry I'm late to this 'discussion'. I was out drinking a few pints of beer so I would be well and truly ready for a good 'pissing contest'!

The 'best' arranger is what works best for YOU, jazzy. You don't play like me. You don't play what I play. You don't play where I play. How would my choice of 'best' live arranger have any relevance to you?

Donny is right. Without hearing about WHAT you play, WHERE you play it, and how well you play, no-one can give any advice worth a damn..! Provide a bit of REAL information about your actual needs, and the replies you get might be a bit more useful to YOU.

Rather than right now, all you are hearing about is a pissing contest.... Of course, I'm SURE you didn't mean to get one of those started, now did you? I mean, where's the fun in THAT?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Oops.... my bladder is busting! Here goes....

G70... G70.... G70....

Ahhhhhh........! Relief

But isn't EVERYONE giving THEIR OWN opinion, which is no doubt based on THEIR OWN needs?!?!? ......

t.

The question was asked...and we answered....

T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.
T3.T3.T3.

I can't believe I just read through 26 posts of this overdone subject. I'm gonna go play something.

But you gotta admit that it's funny how everybody gets fired up! lol

\

Why anyone would seriously consider trying to answer a question that the initial poster already answered for himself beats me, anyway...

The man's mind is made up. I doubt anyone is going to change it...

The BEST LIVE ARRANGER is whichever one floats YOUR boat. For me it's been and continues to be the Roland G70 - for the criteria you listed. If you add portability, I'd have to stop and think a bit.

I saw a great young band in Destin last week called Good Enough for Good Times. Two guys from Galactic (bass and guitar) and a drummer and keyboardist also from NOLA. Keyboard player played a chopped A100 into a Leslie 147, and a Rhodes Suitcase... period.

Portability is whatever you are comfortable with! A 45 lb. G70 seems a deal compared to that rig!

Ahhhhhhh ... the days of transporting the Rhodes ... AND we had to play gigs on the second floor with no elevator !!!
t.

That's what I always say to people who think the E-80 is too heavy to gig — it sure as hell doesn't seem like it after a few years with a Hammond B-200.

Has anybody any rec's on a hard case for the E80??

Sorry to hijack the post, but it's a pissing contest anyways! Let's make it helpful!

Do you need a hard case? I use Roland's own padded soft case, which affords enough protection for my purposes (in and out of the back of a car), without adding much weight. It's wheeled too, which is a boon. Highly recommended.

Seamaster,
I would like a nice LIGHT hard case, or a semi-hard plastic/nylon case. Where did you find that padded case?

At this snails pace,i'm holding out for the Tyros 100..

er..perhaps the Tyros 1000..

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 04-01-2009).]

You might need one of these also

I bought it direct from Roland.

LoL Donny,
C'mon now its not that bad! At least I am not scared to lift the E80 as I was with the PA800. Every time I lifted the Pa800, I was scarred it would brake in half!

I do agree however that there was really no need for the extraordinary weight of the E80.

Seamaster,

I can't find it on the Roland website. Do you have a model # of that bag?

Ian keeps telling us these things are supposed to be 'home' keyboards. Why would you need lightweight in a 'home' appliance..? What's next? 25 lb. refrigerators? 12 lb. sofas? Balsa wood pianos?

Hammond A100.... about 380 lbs.

Makes that E80 seem like a toy!

Me, I like enough weight in a keyboard so that when I smack it around, or do a big smear or gliss, it doesn't move at all. 25 lbs. and under, I have a lot of problem with key creep (it's like pedal creep, except harder to deal with ).

And before you all go 'adjust your touch', consider that I have spent a lifetime developing this touch. Why should I adjust? Just to accommodate a toy-built keyboard? I don't think so...

I feel a "Keyfeel" Pee Pee contest coming

I don't have any trouble with "key creep"...of course, I play with a different technique than you...a little gentler, I suppose...but because I use a proper stand, there is no bounce or movement if I play vigorously.

You'd have to banging on a 25 lb keyboard extremely hard to make it bounce or creep....25 lbs is not that light...that's about the same as a pro synth like a Yamaha DX7 or Roland D50.

You know, you really don't have to pound on them...that's why they have volume controls.

At one time we needed to play hard, as pianos were acoustic and rarely mic'd, but times have changed, my friend.

Oh well, to each his own...I'm very happy with my lightweight setup and so is my back.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-02-2009).]

Good point 'what's next'.. an 80 lb pound wife?

Sorry, I don't.

It's branded "www.rolandkeyboardclub.com", but I can't find it on that site either.

Yamaha DX-7 30 lb
Korg Triton 30 lb.
Fantom G6 32 lb.

Don't think 5-6 lbs. makes that much of difference? Put a 5 lb. bag of flour on your keyboard while you play!

Unfortunately, Ian, if it were as easy as turning up the volume and velocity sensitivity to get the same dynamics and attack as a hard hitting rock or funk player (most of the greats grew up without great amplification in loud bands - it's part of the 'style'), there wouldn't be an 88 wooden MIDI keyboard on the planet!

I'm sorry, but off the top of my head, I don't think I can think of ONE great star keyboard player that plays a PSR type action (other than the great players we have here ).

Heck, even Liszt use to have a spare PIANO on stage for the numerous times he broke piano strings playing his music. I suppose he should have just played lighter, too?

I think I would need to put a bag of flour on my keyboard if I was to let you play it...that way you wouldn't need to worry about it moving whilst you pound and smear away enthusiastically.


Why not two bags for aesthetic purposes?

Seriously, 5-6 lbs ain't gonna make any difference...don't be makin' excuses.

Thankfully, I'm not limited by any keyboard's size or weight...I just adjust, like many pros do...you're a pro...adjust.

There are no home arranger keyboards used on stage by "stars" as far as I know, PSR or otherwise and including the G70, although the same keyboard actions may be used in pro gear, such as the Tyros' FSX being used in the Motif...and I believe the G70's action is in an older Roland A-series controller as well(A-70?), but that's about as close as these instruments ever get to stardom.

If "pounding" so hard as to shift a 25-30 lb electronic keyboard on a stand can be considered a style, then I am glad it is not part of mine...I like saving wear and tear on joints and tendons and using the volume control...but some have to "suffer" for their art.

Personally I think pounding away on any modern well actioned electronic keyboard is more about theatrics than anything inherently musically useful....technology has moved on, son, and there is no need for it anymore...unless we be wanting the dubiously musical thunk from the key hitting the keybed rail as part of our sound?

The dynamics of my little S900 go from no sound at all when I press a key really slowly, to very loud when I strike harder/faster and every nuance in between is covered admirably...what more would I need than that?

Then again, action is a very personal and subjective issue, so what works for some, does not for others.

Lizt broke piano strings because they weren't as well made back then...or maintained either....metallurgy has advanced a lot since his time...if he had been playing a Yamaha piano, he would not have needed a spare instrument and/or strings.

Lizt had to play hard considering the actions on the early pianos/pianofortes, and pounding, or playing hard, was necessary in many cases, and, no doubt, encouraged so that his many fans could hear him...we have amplifiers/speakers nowadays to serve the latter.

Enjoy whatever you choose to play, and look after yourself, my friend...hopefully you won't be long catching up to the rest of us who have figured out that heavy gear is unnecessary in this day and age of vastly improved and responsive keyboard actions and lightweight materials, and, hopefully, you won't wind up with pain meds and/or back surgery as has happened to many who stubbornly refused to change.

Ian

The Yamaha DX-7 weighs 31.2 pounds...

For me..key feel is one of the important things....As Diki says...Your playing skills are developed, including touch..This development, at least for me, was on high quality keys..Even my accordions had the best action..I even had the action modified...

To compromise on key feel, especially for the sake of a lighter keyboard...is just wrong....It seems like some of you guys have been playing inferior keys so long...you don't know the difference...

One, Two, Cha, Cha, Cha,

Of course it is wrong Fran...that's why I use the Yamaha PSR-S900...there is no compromise...it has great key feel/response and it is wonderfully lightweight and portable.

Plus, it sounds awesome.

Conversely, maybe it is you that is doing the compromising...you need to have a heavy, bulky, and awkward to move keyboard to get the key feel that you feel works best for your needs.

So, it all depends on one's perspective, doesn't it?

Have a good day buddy, and don't forget to keep your stick on the ice, and remember...if women don't find you handsome, at least let them find you handy.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-02-2009).]

So why isn't an NP-30 what you use for piano, Ian (or at least a non-weighted 88)... I mean, if a volume control is all you need, why lug around a full 88 weighted action when a toy 88 would do the job JUST as well?

Your own purchasing decisions contradict your position here... but then again, I suppose you could say that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds (like me an' Fran )...

Try putting that premise to any top PRO player lugging an RD700 around, or MotifXS8 or Nord Stage 88 (or the weighted 76). Tell them they are wasting their time using a fully weighted (or even half-weighted) action, when a non-weighted PSR keyboard does the job JUST as well. In fact, tell the customers at the piano stores you go to that 'fact'.

Watch them laugh their asses off...

The lighter and faster the action the better for me. I'm not a piano player. Never was. I'm an instrument emulator, and I feel that's the primary function of arranger keyboards. Many things simply cannot be done on fully-weighted heavy action keys, at least by me.
I generally make it a policy to never let piano players play my keyboards. I prefer to break them myself. It's the old mentality that "if I pound it harder, it will go louder".
In the words of one of my heroes, Waylan Jennings: "WRONG".
BTW, go ahead an Google Waylan and Wrong. It's a funny song.
DonM

Diki,

The reason I don't use an NP-30 for piano is that I prefer weighted hammer action.

Also, it only has 76 keys, and like your G70, it feels nothing like a real piano, although it does have it's purpose for those wanting a beginner piano that's light in weight and has graded soft touch velocity sensitive keys.

That's why for solo piano, I use a Yamaha P85 which has a lovely smooth 88 note graded hammer keyboard that is a delight to play.

I don't want to compromise my chops.

I don't mind using two keyboards if it means I don't have to compromise keyboard feel for each style of play...piano is just another sound on my arranger, and a weighted or semi-weighted keyboard is unnecessary...synth action works perfectly, and keeps the arranger light and transportable.

I don't play my arranger as a piano...I don't play my piano as an arranger...I have the best of both worlds and it works fine for me.

Taken together, and in their soft gig bags, they weigh less than a G70 in it's road-case, and considering I have the luxury of carrying them one at a time, they are very easy to transport.

In some cases, I can even leave one of them at home, depending on the type of gig.

I certainly wouldn't recommend a PSR (or a G70, for that matter) to a player who expects his instrument to actually feel like a piano...but I would definitely recommend the P85 as a terrific graded hammer action lightweight stage piano, and the PSR-S900 as an incredibly efficient and compact arranger.

If the setup/tear-down time is a little longer, it doesn't matter...I plan for it, and it is well worth it.

So, in conclusion, you may love the convenience(?)) of having it all in one, albeit, quite heavy, instrument, but for me, this setup is the bee's knees.





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-03-2009).]

What I find amusing is someone pounding away on an electronic instrument....back in the day with acoustic pianos, the player had to play hard to be heard over the guitar players, but now instruments have amplification and a very handy volume control.

Pounding on an electronic keyboard is akin to pressing harder on the TV remote buttons when the batteries are getting weak.

I looked up Waylon's tune...he's a favorite of mine...great song and too funny...love the bit at the end.

The steel drums are a neat touch.

Ian

Are you trying to tell me that DOESN'T work ?!?!?


t.

I gave it up after two weeks and bought new batteries

Try playing something softly, or at least with your light touch. Turn up the volume, turn up the velocity sensitivity. Play a rocker on the piano, or a funky riff on a Rhodes. Record it.

Now turn down the volume, turn down the velocity sensitivity and curve. Play the same part, and play hard... Record it.

Compare the two. Odds are, they will sound VERY different, rhythmically, emotionally and sonically. Look at the two files in a MIDI sequencer (record them as MIDI first). Look at how different the velocity levels are. Even if you get them both in the same ballpark about average level, the ranges will be totally different.

Now play them to a non-musician. Ask them which version they prefer. 9 out of 10 times, they'll pick the more muscular performance. Rock, funk, and so many other musical styles are all about energy and attitude. You can't tickle your way through them

Of course you can't my friend, but whacking a 25 lb keyboard so hard that it moves on the stand is a tad much...hence the volume control, and, of course, a decent stand.

I can play the 25 lb P85 (or the S900) very aggressively, and I've got big hands, and it doesn't move on the stand...and I'm getting those nice barky sounds out of the Rhodes patches on the piano or the S900 when MIDI'd...

You must be leaping in the air and coming down pretty hard to make an instrument of this kind of weight bounce or slide.

Thankfully your G70 can take the banging but it can't be all that good for the keystrip, and smears and slides are very hard on key mechanisms(of any brand)...just ask any repair guy or techie.

PSR's don't like being glissed or having smears played on them because of the type of contacts used (they don't use a strip like the Tyros or G70) so I tend to treat them a little gentler...of course, restaurant music doesn't lend itself to that technique much in the first place.

I'm very impressed with the action on the Yamaha P85...for an inexpensive digital piano, it is pretty well as nice as you'd want...and, it's not heavy....that part I really love.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-03-2009).]

Well, the G1000 took about ten years of my abuse (if you want to paint it so) without the slightest problem with the action. So far, nothing wrong with my G70's action, either. Maybe PSR keyboards don't like certain smear techniques or glisses... Me, I prefer a keyboard that doesn't dictate to ME what I should and shouldn't play!

Let's be clear, here... I don't smack anything around hard enough to make it bounce around all over the place (unless the stand is the culprit), but after growing up playing grand pianos, Hammond's, Rhodes' and CP70's, I have kind of got used to a keyboard that doesn't move a millimeter, no matter WHAT you do to it.

Touch response on electric keyboards only remains consistent if the keybed isn't moving when you hit it. Otherwise, that motion adds or subtracts from the force that you apply. After carefully honing that touch over years, I don't want anything to alter it.

Go play a grand piano standing up wearing rollerskates... Try to stay in one place..! You are imparting force on the keyboard whether you realize it or not.

BTW, what's the difference in touch between the P series, and the CP series Yamaha pianos? That graded action on the CP's seems to bump the weight up to about 40 lbs.+. Is it heavier to the touch?

Of course you don't my friend...we can't have that now, can we?

In my case, I know I chose the right tools for the job...PSR-S900 does the arranger work admirably and my back thanks me at every setup....and for piano, you know that an 88 weighted hammer is the only way to go...no wimpy synth or semi-weighted action for me, and no compromise with the P85...and, I can do all the glissandos I want on it...the occasional gliss won't do any damage to the PSR, but ripping up and down on the keys with abandon every night won't do it any favors either, as it would with any light action instrument....they are not pianos and aren't meant to be played like one.

The CP-300 has a different action, GHE is a teensy bit heavier key feel as opposed to the GHS in the P-85...I had a CP-300 here for a few months, excellent sound and feel but a bear to move at 71 lbs, I really liked it, but luckily I liked the P-85's slightly lighter action better and I'm certainly glad of that as it is so much lighter in weight(25.9 lbs).

It also has half pedalling like the CP-300.

I wish I could adapt to the semi-weighted actions for piano, but they really feel all wrong to me.

Ian

Are we really going to have this same discussion again ????

Ahhhh grasshopper...very often the answer we seek is in our question.

Makes you wonder why there is a piano sample in there, then...

And a very nice one it is...fits in the mix absolutely perfectly.

The G70 has a keyboard, yet it has a Sax sound in it...why?

Because there is nothing about the G70 keyboard that prevents you playing it...

Yep, it's the same way for the S900...keyboard has just the right touch for the Super Articulated Saxophone which is...er...super!

But apparently, from your own mouth (sure haven't heard you admit this before), the PSR keybed doesn't hold up well to glisses and smears, both integral performance techniques for E. Piano, A. Piano and Organ patches, some of the most used (at least by keyboard players!) patches we have...

Given how Yamaha can produce a WS with a FAR superior action for the same price as the S900, surely it's time for them to include it on their arranger line. After all, a $1700 arranger hardly qualifies as a 'home' toy for the kids. It is way past time for similar construction values to be used in similar priced keyboards from the same manufacturer...

And don't worry... the FSX action is STILL light enough for you to handle, Ian

PSR (and other manufacturer's) instruments that use single contacts, and not the long continuous strip, employ keys whose shape and travel, make glissandos and especially palm smears, a bit harder to do smoothly, at least for me with my large hands, and sometimes, with an especially enthusiastic palm slide, I'm concerned that a key will snag and end up pulled out of place, or even worse, broken.

Someone with smaller hands might fare better than I, but generally I tend to be a bit more cautious with all lighter synth type actions.

Think about it, there really no arrangers that make doing palm smears (and glisses) as well as dedicated organ keyboards such as XK3c or XK1 or Nord.

The Tyros and G70 are no better at allowing such technique, anymore than they are at feeling like acoustic pianos, Rhodes and Wurlies.

That's why I express more than a passing interest in a dedicated Hammond clone with real waterfall type keys.

Perhaps we'll see such a keyboard on an arranger someday, although I think the chances would be rather slim.

My dream "live" arranger would be a double manual instrument that weighs the same as the Nord C1, but has lower 76 note with the same action as a P85 and a 61, or even 49 note, waterfall keyboard above, with the same feel as the Nord or Hammond XK...considering the 88 note P85 is so light, I think an instrument would be entirely possible.

It could have attachable speakers a la Tyros for the home crowd, and perhaps even a dedicated (optional) stand to satisfy them even further.

Yamaha makes a dual manual arranger type instrument called the D-Deck, but the lower manual is not weighted, and it has 61 keys.

Roland's Atelier is a nice idea too, but far too heavy.

Who knows what the future will bring...maybe we'll see my dream instrument someday,...they might even put a chord sequencer in it...wouldn't that be cool?

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-04-2009).]