I've always been of the opinion that music is supposed to be mutually enjoyed by musicians playing together.

Also, I don't have much respect for the ability of most club managers and booking agents to differentiate between good and bad players/musicians.

Who's opinion maters most to you? Is it the public? The management of venues? With me, it's the opinion of peers....musicians I respect.

What about you? Please remember, there are no right answers. It's all about what "floats your boat". I suspect that entertainers will value the opinions of the public much more than other musicians. The reverse is probably true of most musicians.

We all must get satisfaction/approval somewhere. Where do you get yours?


Russ

Audiences....without a doubt.

Opinions about what, though, Russ?

Often times, I'll take the agent's opinions or audience reaction over peer approval when it comes to whether an act is commercially popular or not. Whether it is any good 'musically', yep, peer musicians are our best bet. Mind you, as this forum shows, you can expect just about any answer to any question here! Little consensus about anything, IMO...

mine, mostly!...
but then again, i am not so much after any real-life advantages, like paid gigs or selling cds and so on. still, i apreciate an honest oppinion of any qualified person, as long as it is constructive (not necesarily positive, but helpful) and it was meant to really help for future improvement, not otherwise.
this is how i feel, what i do and also what i recommend to everyone.

I guess after decades of playing it really no longer makes much difference to me what anyone else thinks about what I play or how i play it except for the audience I perform for now. I no longer play clubs or dances and my only clients these days are folks in retirement homes or assisted living centers. It matters a lot to me what these folks think as I perform for them. They are always gracious and appreciative and I work probably harder to please them than I did when playing all the best spots in our area. I could write a book about all the really neat things I have experienced since taking on these clients. Anyway, that is what "floats my boat" these days.

Hammer

It really depends...

If its a song selection thing for my band, I trust myself...

When it comes to ballroom dance-ability, I trust myself a lot but will ask my sax player his thoughts often...

Our PA sound in the front of the house, I trust my bass player to tell me how it sounds out front...

Other than that, I trust my own judgement on most things...

I can't remember the last time the dance floor wasn't filled when we were playing...


Technically, I find Gary D and Don M to be terrific resources of info. (Also dirty jokes!)



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Bill in Dayton

People who buy the tickets and sign the checks.......Period.

Peer acceptance means little to nothing regarding ticket sales, venue owners, show producers, clients, CD sales and ultimately the bank account....unless one is at thwe Grammy or Oscar level, In that case peer aceptance matters to the bottomline.

And Bill in Dayton....the reason you rely on your sax player, bass player and your own judgment is because you are assessing what the audience hears and you can judge how you are doing by seeing their response.

So ... it all boils down to AUDIENCE.

I have gotten and lost jobs because of pleasing or displeasing a club owner who places his/her opinion above that of his/her patrons. But it has been rare. And, in most of those cases the patrons move on if they are not pleased.

Eddie

Sorry Eddie, I disagree...

My band gets hired to play at dances, usually ballroom, for the 50 and up crowd.

Like I said, we play...they dance...

I used to ask them how did it sound? Are we too loud? Etc...They always said it sounded great-don't change a thing, so...IMO, they're not really objective.

My bass player can tell me my keys are a tad too loud, or the highs on the sax need to be cut...My audience never gives me that kind of info.

My sax player gives me good count-offs on some ballroom I'm not real familiar with and it works...I trust him...

What's also not been mentioned is the trust level the audience has in me/the band. The musicianship of the 4 of us is good enough that even if we try a new tune that the audience has never heard from us before, they're out there dancing...



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Bill in Dayton

I always listen to the person that is writing the check.

Tom

“From Wikipedia
An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence, but which cannot be proved with that evidence. An opinion is neither right nor wrong. It is normally a subjective statement and may be the result of an emotion or an interpretation of facts; people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts.”

If I have the time, I love to listen to other people’s opinions, on a subject I am interested in, then with my
limited 76years of living, I make up my own mind.
Fred Wren

Without a doubt, the audience. Although, I do enjoy the nods I get from other musicians. If the audience likes you, you will get the work. I've heard it so many times, we hired you because you are their favorite.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

This is easy!!!!

My opinion counts..first..

If I am pleased with what I do..the audience will also be pleased....if the audience is pleased...the owner will be pleased.$$$.....As for pleasing other musicians..who cares?..Why aren't they working?..

The opinion of my fellow members here at SZ is what is MOST important to me...

Or, at least, it SHOULD be, given how badly I get flamed whenever we happen to disagree!

From what I seem to get, it appears that, all posting here to the contrary, only their own opinion is all that matters to SOME people

Interesting. I wasn't looking for a concensus. I was looking for what's important to individuals. There is no right answer. All I know is, for me, when I got an old school sax player here named Duke Madison (think guys like Cannonball) to smile and let me solo when I was around 12, I was in heaven.

To me, approval of my peers is paramount. If I were an entertainer, it would be different. I'm not.

Thing is, involvement in music is so rewarding on so many levels.


What a GREAT busines to be in.


Russ

(P.S.) Thanks for ALL the responses. They showed thought and individuality. And, we were all civil, which I REALLY appreciate.




[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 04-22-2009).]

I think three opinions combine to influence me - my own opinion of my music, the audience (& here I would also include any fellow performers) and the client - probably in that order.

At the risk of catching Diki's wrath, I'll follow Russ's statement that all opinions are valid on this post. So, yes, my own opinion is most valuable because I feel I am the best judge of my abilities and choices. I am very self critical and if I feel I've done extremely good or bad, I'll be the first to acknowledge that. Also, I believe I have a good feel for what the audience wants/should hear, and I'm usually right.

The audience (and fellow performers) also influence me. If they are not reacting positively to my music, then I need to change that. If I'm calling the songs, then maybe I need to share the input for a while.

Lastly, the client's opinion obviously matters a great deal, but it's not the final word (unless he's threatening to fire me on the spot). The client is usually not a super knowledgeable music person. He/she is paying for you to entertain an audience he/she is hosting. How many times have I (you) been hired to play a certain genre of music, but quickly find out that the guests want no part of that music. That's where the audience and my opinion step in.

I would certainly like to think that peer opinion is of the utmost, but as we all know some people are constantly negative, some always positive and some just plain ol' insincere. I don't want a friend to tell me that 'that was great' when my experienced mind tells me 'it sucked'.

OTOH, cassp, we have all seen musicians who beat themselves up constantly for not matching their OWN lofty goals, while all around them others tell them how good they really are!

Personally, I really think that ALL opinions are important, but it remains down to each one of us how we weight them, and act upon them... After seeing an audience throw adulation upon someone with virtually no talent at all, but a good stage presence and nice looks, is that REALLY how you want to judge yourself? Or watching musicians heap praise upon a 'player' who leaves just about any audience cold and uninterested, again, is that how you rank yourself? Or listen to other musicians, who obviously rate ONLY their own inflated opinion of themselves, no matter HOW dreadful they really are...?

Somewhere between the three, there's a consensus... whether we want to admit it is another thing!

BTW, fear not the 'Wrath of Diki'! Even if incurred, I won't at least stoop as low as some here, and insult you personally..

When I said I wasn't looking for a concensus, I meant that I wasn't looking for all of us to agree on which was the most important or significant source of evaluations of musicianship/entertainment ability. I simply wanted everyone to get a chance to share what opinions/evaluations matter to them.

Most of us have Done that.


Thanks,


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 04-24-2009).]

Sorry, Russ... I wasn't implying a forum consensus, merely a consensus in our OWN minds about how to weight the different sources of opinion. Sorry if I got confused...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-24-2009).]

Diki, from your prospective, what you say certainly makes sense.


Russ

LOL

Believe it or not, that's my problem.

In other words I trust myself (and my Wife in the Vocals Department) only.

Having said that, "myself" is made up of many things.
My experiences & memories of what should and shouldn't happen in a performance. My recollections of some of the best (and worst) performers of the Genre(s) I'm performing. My own reaction to watching my performances on Video, etc etc etc.

I am my own worst and harshest critic, and that judgement is tempered by many, many things "Music 'n Showbiz wise" if you get me, and that's good enough (and harsh enough lol) for me.

Harsh self-criticism isn't necessarily a BAD thing, but only if you use it as a goad to practice, practice, practice, and to improve those areas that need it. But if you let it get systematic and pervasive, and don't feel you CAN improve any further, it is just a poison for your soul...

Opinions are a kind of electoral process. You don't get much positive out of only relying on ONE opinion (usually, your own!). But if you allow opinions from ALL walks of life to at least have SOME importance, you might be able to at least balance your own self-negativity (or overconfidence!)...

So if you hate your own playing, but nearly EVERYBODY else compliments you, or you think you are great, but no-one claps at the end of a song, you might at least ADD their opinions to your general impression of yourself. Then, maybe add in the opinion of musicians in your area you respect (if you can get them to talk candidly about what they think), and you might finally get some kind of consensus you can rely on...

But beating yourself up can only be a negative thing unless it inspires you to try harder and improve yourself... and sooner or later, you have to STOP doing it! If you want to play as well as Oscar Peterson, be realistic...! Be content to just get close Most of the greats were great at a VERY young age. Just be content to be the best you can be...

I think Diki has it summed up this time ( at last, some might say).
If I cannot please me, I would not want anyone else to hear it.
I am a severe critic of most things I do, which only drives me to do it better, and I will not rest until I can play as well as Oscar,HAHA!Alright, nearly will do in this case.
I recorded two CD's which I have given to friends whom I believe would appreciate the kind of music I play. The responses have been very encouraging, and I have been asked to do another with a few requested songs.
But I still know my weaknesses and I will be trying to improve to please my limited audience,but if I don't like it, they won't hear it.
Ray

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Ray The Saint