My Bose L1 Compact arrived and after about 6 hours of playing I posted a report at the link below for those interested.
http://www.psrtutorial.com/ForumMain.html

hammer

It's on the Accessory Hardware forum, if you are having trouble finding it...

Very interesting; keep us posted, hammer. I'm not there yet, but when I am I will certainly want to check this unit out and A/B it with the L1.

Mine will arrive this afternoon. Looking forward to trying it. SemiLive now owns my extra L1 system.
DonM

Don,
I bet you will like it once you get your keyboard EQd for it. I found another great use for it. I have been listening to CDs and my Satalite radio played through it and it will make one hell of a home system too. Neat thing about that is it is so small and light I would be inclined to actually use it for a home system as well. You don't have to setup the tower to use it and that is a neat feature. I also like the mic input system on it - very simple to use and very clear. On my L1 Classic I always got complaints that when I used the mic to speak it was hard for the older folks to understand. I bet that won't be a problem with the Compact.

Let me know what you think when you get time to play with yours.

Hammer

WHOA!!! ... the BOSE is a 'HOME USE SYSTEM' ?!?!? ... no way any self-respecting 'PRO' would use a 'HOME SYSTEM' on a gig/job ... no siree ... NO WAY !!!
t

BTW ... just TEASIN' guys ...
t.

I'm thinking about getting four of them and having quadrophonic sound!!
DonM

They sound awesome in stereo...best investment I ever made...with the kind of quality in these systems, they will last me a long, long time.

Mono works okay (barely) until you play them in stereo...then you won't go back.

Ian

My only comment is please those of you who live in Rhode Island (hear that Tony ) or nearby Mass. please don't but the Bose. L1, II or the newest compact model. I don't need the competition. Tony the Podium's sound good.

... I'm actually considering the 10's ....
t.

If I didn't own the Bose I would be too, looks like a great choice. Good luck keep us posted when you do.

OT looks like now that I start a 4 day work week in the next couple of weeks a field trip to visit Frankieve is in order.Probably late this month or early June. Mikey's gonna jump on board too!! I'll be in touch.

Well, today I put in another 5 hours with the new Bose Compact and one thing is clear - the little thing is a beast! I have read a lot of posts about piano and drum sounds on the T3 and really never paid a lot of attention to the posts because my system always seemed ok to me. Well, today I noticed how great the drums really are on this keyboard and the piano seems a lot better too. I wonder if the people passing judgement on things are using really good speaker systems?

Another rather interesting note - with the Compact set at 50% I have been running my keyboard vol only at 9 O'clock - 10 O'clock max. I cranked the Bose up to about 75% and did not notice any distortion but I can't imagine anyone playing at that vol very long.

It will go out on it's first gig tomorrow - I will know more then but so far the sounds are really good and it seems to bring the life out of my T3. In all fairness to my standard L1 I really haven't explored all the presets with amy of my keyboards. I found one I liked and just stuck with it.

Hammer

Deane, that shouldn't be. I had nothing but the opposite when speaking through the L1. Do you have all FX (reverb) off when speaking?

Glenn

Glenn,
I am not sure about the reverb on the L1. I ran my mic through my keyboard rather than directly into the L1. All I know is the senior folks had a really hard time understanding me when I used the mic.

Glenn, I haven't spent much time "exploring" the L1 - I was to busy playing and once I found a really nice preset that i liked I quit experimenting with it.

Hammer

Hammer,
As I recall from Shreveport last year, you don't sing....so you could create a special setting for mic in your 3K and Tyros that beefs up your voice without reverb or any fx.

Another need tool in the Yammie arsenal.
Eddie

I've been playing with a friend who has an L1 system (the original). He has one Bass Module. Overall, for the use it is good at (even coverage at moderate levels) it is pretty good (albeit it still a little lacking in low-mid 'presence').

But I feel, for a $2000+ sound system, that no reverb, no auxiliary ins and outs (no RCA's to connect a recorder or break music device to) and rudimentary controls are definitely bullsh*t. Heck, little $300 mixers got multi-FX, RCA's etc...

I did receive the Compact yesterday. Hooked it up to an MP3 and it sounds really good. Haven't had time to try the kb through it yet, but it looks like a winner to me so far.
DonM

Well I just got back from my first gig with the Bose L1 Compact. I have mixed feelings about the outcome but will not rush to make a judgement here. First, for some reason the system seemed very "muddy" to me. Strange, because at home it was extremely bright and clear. I don't know how it sounded out front - only with it sitting right next to me. The room was about 50 X 50 with a ceiling of about 40 feet. Second, the sound of the Compact is different from the Standard L1 enough to be noticed by players owning both. The difference is not bad - just different.

Seems like this system really likes to be behind the player. I had it right next to me and had a hard time hearing it at times. Never experienced that with the Standard L1.

What I liked - Every single piece of electronic gear fit inside my car rather than the trunk. - Important in 100 degree weather.
Really easy setup and tear down. I could tell a big difference pushing my cart - much lighter. Very easy mic control - mic sounded very clear. Overall the gig went on without any problems and I would have to
judge the gig a success.

I play again on Sunday and will post results again.

Hammer[/b]

I put it just slightly off axis behind me about 10 ft., if space permits...

Everything seems to sounds more clear...the most consistent comment I get other than what a great sound that is...

Try it behind you several feet, it'll make a difference.

Good luck

------------------
Bill in Dayton

So I would assume judging by comments no one is using monitors & keeping the Bose in front of house.

Donny,
That is the whole idea - Bose says to put it slightly behind you and it solves the monitor problem. Not only that, but you now hear exactly what your audience is hearing. It works very well. I have setup that way often with my standard L1.

Hammer

OK Dean,

I used to keep my L1 next 6 feet right of me at directly aligned with my ears...worked well that way. Glad to hear you enjoying you new unit.I hear Don M has one also.

I called Bose today and asked about using a keyboard with two outputs into the single input on the Bose Compact L1. Here is what the tech told me.

First, on the standard L1s there are two chans so using two cables - one into each input makes sense. On the compact with only one single input he recommended using only the Main L/R output from the keyboard and runing only one cable into the Bose.

I asked about the various "splitters" and effects cables used to combine two outputs into one input and he indicated that should not be necessary with this product. In fact, he indicated it could cause a phase problem. So, I will give it a try with only one cable for part of my gig on Sunday and with two cables the other half and see if it makes any difference.

About gain staging the unit. He said always make sure the source (my keyboard) is set hotter than the bose. For example, keyboard at say 50 percent - Bose at 25 percent. I will also give that a try Sunday. I was doing just the opposite.

He also said with the compact it is very important to position the unit to the rear of the performer - especially with the extentions in place because the sound would be well above the performer if placed right next to him. That actually makes sense and might have been the problem I experience yesterday with hearing it - even though it was only 18 inches to my left.

All this begs the question - What exactly is the real difference between the two main outputs on our keyboards? Is the Main L/R truly a combination of the R and L sounds? Or do you really need the L output to fill in the sound on a single input amp?

I know many of you out there know all of this but for those like me who have very limited experience with amps perhaps it will help.

Hammer

Dean ....good news......cant wait to hear your opinion when you push the Yammy a bit sound wise thru the compact Bose..

Personally, I don't think anyone has ever bothered to try to quantify the mythic 'mono out isn't as good as summing L&R externally'.

It's fairly easy to test if you have a DAW. Same Piano MIDI file (why not use the Purgatory Creek one? ), first few bars. Make one recording stereo, make another recording mono, out the 'Mono Out' jack. Convert the stereo recording to Mono in your DAW, then 'normalize' both files (this is important, to make sure they are EXACTLY the same volume).

Now compare first by listening, and also if you can line them up to play simultaneously (line the peaks up to be sample accurate with each other) flip the phase (Invert phase) of one of the recordings, and then play. If they are IDENTICAL, one will cancel out the other, and you should hear basically nothing at all.

If you can hear a difference, it should show up on the null test, too. But unless there is something seriously out of whack with the summing electronics in the arranger, you should hear very little.

Personally, I would be surprised if there WAS much of a difference. Summing two signals to mono is not exactly difficult, electronically. But gain staging TWO outputs (L&R) into two channels panned mono, and ONE mono output into one channel so they are at EXACTLY the same level is quite hard. And the ear perceives even the slightest change in volume as a 'difference' in tone. Hence the 'anecdotal' reports of a possibly flawed Mono out.

Me, I think the problem is MUCH more about certain stereo piano sample sets (to my ears, Yamaha are particularly bad in this regard) being somewhat out of phase (to exaggerate the apparent width) or poorly recorded, so that there are really noticeable changes in timbre when collapsed to mono, no matter HOW you achieve that...

Making your manufacturer aware of your displeasure at how poorly the stereo sounds collapse to mono will do FAR more than worrying too much about going mono 'inside the box' or outside. They either take it into consideration when they make the NEXT arranger, or it will never improve, no matter WHAT the do to the Mono jack...

)BTW, I have done simple tests on my G70, and have noticed NO difference between going mono inside the box or externally)

The Bose is sub par with any of the Yamaha stereo sounds.

I can't speak for a G70 or Korg, but I can tell you without hesitation, there is a considerable loss in quality when a Yamaha arranger is used in the mono Bose(one system).

Believe me, I wouldn't have sprung for two systems if one would have done the job...and one system doesn't do the job well enough to my ears.

Biggest loss is the stereo pianos, like Live!Grand Piano, Cool!ElectricPiano and several of the SA and Mega guitars that are processed with stereo delay and chorus. The Leslie effect on the organs is drastically affected as well.

I think any instrument that uses stereo DSP of any kind would sound less than it should when played in mono in the Bose.

I first noticed the deficiency on a buddy's PSR-3000 being played through a Bose L1. He didn't mind so much, because all he was using it for was to play SMF, most of which he made himself, with just basically a style and very little, if any, right hand parts.

If all you do is use SMF, it might do the trick, but if you do a lot of instrumental tunes (I do all instrumental) with a Yamaha arranger(including the T3 and CVP) then there will be a difference.

Some can live with it....I couldn't. Hence, the two systems. Mind you, I don't regret buying them, because, believe me, they sound incredible and make both the T3 and S900 sound monstrous and super clean.

The way Yamaha chooses to stereoize it's pianos is not necessarily "bad"...it is just the way they want to use them in a home arranger, which will be played in stereo, either through the factory speakers, or through a home stereo.

The CP-300 provides a mono piano because it is meant to use through a mono PA, and because it is a professional stage piano.

I'm sure other arrangers may provide mono samples for this purpose. Yamaha does not. No big deal, until you use a mono system.

I tried the T3 and PSR-S900 in mono through a Yamaha Stagepas 500, and it affected them exactly the way the Bose did, so obviously, they are meant to sound their best in stereo.

So hear what you like, but I hear the Bose crippling the Yamaha sound in mono...whose fault is it? No one's, as far as I can see, as the Yamaha arrangers were never meant to be played in mono, and even though there is a L+R Mono output jack, it doesn't quite sum things down to mono...at least to my ears.

Bottom line, at least for me, the Bose sounds crappy in mono with Yamaha arrangers....or, vice versa, if you will.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-09-2009).]

I'm pretty much with you there, Ian, except for the blanket stereo statement... There ARE some arrangers that their piano, although VERY good in stereo, collapse to mono without nearly as much phasing issues as the Yamaha's do. And there are some WS's that provide mono piano samples based on exactly the same piano samples as the stereo ones.

I simply feel that this isn't a universal problem, just one that Yamaha in particular could pay more attention to, vis a vis their piano samples. After all, they ARE a piano company...

Surely their piano sample sets should be BETTER than the rest, not worse (at this particular function - we won't go into tastes, again )?

BTW, I am sure that stereo L1 system (you got the MkII?) is wonderful, but jeez! $5000+US for a stereo PA? You got a gold mine under your shack in the Klondike, Ian?

Oh, and how about trying the DAW tests on your Yamaha I outlined above...?

Isn't it about time somebody answered this question once and for all? IS there any difference between summing a Yamaha internally or externally that is quantifiable, rather than just an 'impression', as subject to variables as that is?

I'm not going to make excuses for Yamaha, Diki...they obviously have their reasons for the way the stereo is done in their arrangers...perhaps it's because they want people to use stereo amps, I don't know.

A PA is a one time investment...I'll never need another....better than getting something every few years...I rather buy a new arranger every few years than a PA.

It's only money, and many people squander it on lesser things.

Ian

Well, great discussion here. I have two L1s so I guess I could run both and see for myself how much it "improves" the sound. Suppose the "classic" and the "Compact" will make a decent test?

Hammer

Without two of the same, although it will give you the 'impression' of stereo, you'll lose a bit of the detailed stereo imaging because of the different responses of each speaker....

Stereo has always been about two identical speakers. Anything less is a compromise, although two different Bose may make less of a compromise than say a Mackie350v2 and a Podium 802 due to frequency response differences.

Oh, and few update their PA's as often as their arrangers, Ian Most of us, no matter WHAT we buy, or how much or little we pay, tend to stick with it for a LONG time...

Ian,
I am curious. What type of music do you most often play at your gigs? I can't imagine getting much better sound for an audience than what I have been getting from my Classic L1 and Tyros 3 combo. If we are debating for the sake of a debate mono vs stereo that is one thing - but for practical use I just don't see the advantage of stereo for audience appeal or satisfaction.

We've had this conversation ad nauseam before, hammer.

However, most of the world listens to music in stereo, whether in their car, on their iPod, on their computer speakers, on their home stereo, or when listening to real live music (if the guitarist is on the left, that's where you hear him play, violins on the left, cellos on the right at the symphony, no matter WHERE you sit in the room).

And, as you have just been reading, several quite important aspects of modern arrangers' sounds suffer when collapsed to mono. Quite easy to hear, I believe (you REALLY haven't noticed it?). So, staying in stereo, the way the instrument is designed (not to mention how most of the world experiences music) seems pretty reasonable. What ISN'T, IMO, is how much a stereo Bose system costs you, compared to most conventional systems of similar output capacity...

Put it this way... I'd rather make a 'one time' investment of $3000 in a quality stereo PA, than a $5500 one

Diki,
All good points and true. The reason I probably have not noticed is when I started playing arragers about 3 years ago I was using a pair of M-Audio BX5a speakers. Ok for what I was doing but not the world best by any criteria. I changed from them to a single Bose L1. I often use headphones at the house but most of the time I am not playing for my own personal enjoyment but to work out styles or tunes for a gig.

I'll have to setup both Bose systems and see how they sound - even though I would never take both to a gig because I am trying to lighten my load not ad to it.

Hammer

Not most of us, Diki...I seem to see many on this forum change arrangers every few years (3-5), if not more often...you (and Fran, maybe) might be the exception, my friend.

I like to stay current with the new technology, and it advances every so many years...the excellent SA voices of the S900 lured me in pretty easily, and it will smoke many a TOTL arranger of only a few years ago.

Add up the difference from the PSR-3000 I sold and the cost of an S900 and it's not much money, especially if you think of it over a year or so...a small price to pay for having the latest and best sounding technology.

The same goes for any company, I guess, but, since Yamaha has the the sound I like to hear coming out of my speakers(in stereo, no less) that's going to be my choice.

The last PA I bought was over 15 years ago (my two Yamaha MS-60S, which still work perfectly)...I'm pretty sure the Bose, with the quality that it has, will last me at least that long...certainly till I retire.

Ian






[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-09-2009).]

Hammer,

I play a large variety of music, from old country and western, to Latin, to Jazz, R&B, Pop music, Movie themes, even some classical and jazz solo piano....it depends on who's hiring, I guess.

I don't do vocals, but I have several singers I can call, and then I usually sing backup harmony, and maybe a few tunes myself.

Primarily my music is instrumental.

A single Bose covers very well, but the fact that it's in mono does not do my instrument's stereo effects and sounds any justice.

I hear the difference immediately when using two Bose systems...the sound is almost three dimensional, and with the marvellous coverage, it makes my S900 sound awesome. The T3 is even more awesome-er.

As they say, the devil is in the details, and I'm not going to spend long hours setting up effects and registrations, only to have them sound one dimensional in mono.

The Bose in stereo is glorious, and room filling, and perfect for concerts and any gigs you want to have lots of coverage and the sound equally distributed.

I don't need honkin' bonkin' drums, so the Yamaha percussion is perfect for the music I play...the sound of the fills panning from side to side is impressive with the Bose in stereo, and the drums actually sound more "live"....I know I'm very pleased with them.

To really get the perfect stereo with the Bose, it's important to use identical systems, although using the two you have, might do okay, you get the best results with the same on each side.

It's the best money I've ever spent...no regrets.

You know, when it comes right down to it, we are actually "playing the speakers", they are the last link in the chain, and to use a TOTL, or MOTL arranger through a budget system is a cryin' shame, in my opinion.

Ian

Ian... Given the dispersion of sound that the L1's provide, can you explain how seperation of stereo is achieved?

If you have L1's to either side of you, I can understand your appreciation of the stereo effect. But, are you sure that is how your audience and the rest of the room hears it?

Eddie

Eddie,

I put a Bose on either side, about 8-10 ft behind me, and it sounds excellent.

It's weird, but because the way the Bose covers the room, the stereo effect seems to be more equidistant than a conventional sound system...it really does sound almost three dimensional.

It sounds the same up close as it does 100-200 ft away....I really can't explain it because I'm no expert on acoustics, but I do know what I hear.

I play one of my MIDI files and walk around the room, and it sounds really, really good everywhere.

I also don't do any extreme hard panning of sounds either, and that may be helping as well.

The biggest draw for the Bose, especially for concerts, is that everyone hears basically the same thing at the same volume, no matter where they are sitting.

I think a single Bose is perfect for a guitar player/singer, but for our stereo arrangers, you really should be using two...and, sure it's expensive, but so is a decent arranger, and judging by the number of people looking to buy the Audya, and the bunch that bought T2's and T3's, people don't mind spending money to have what they feel is the best.

To play a great instrument through a pair of cheap, questionable quality speakers is a crime....they should be the best we can afford.

Ian

Ian,
Thanks for your post - now I understand what you are trying to achieve. Sounds like we play about the same type of music and have the same requirements.

I might just give it a try with mine.

Hammer

BTW, Ian, my last post was about the fact that most of us keep our PA's for far longer than our arrangers. There is certainly far more discussion about new arrangers, and more people post about new one's they have bought.

You are not the only one that buys a PA for the long haul... Though you may be right that Fran and I are the only ones here that one arranger is capable of satisfying for any length of time...

Yes, my friend, but you and Fran are more easily satisfied than the rest of us, and are more content to stick with what you have, although I must admit, the old G70 still sounds pretty good.

Of course, since Roland has not graced us with anything new, it may be more of a case of you guys having to stay with the status quo, rather than wanting to.

As much as I like my S900, and as much as I know it inside out, if Yamaha's next S-series has some things that I really like, I will most certainly get one. If it doesn't ring any bells, then, like you and Fran, I'm quite content with what I have... but, at least I will have been given a choice.

Nothin' wrong with that now, is there?

Ian

Well, I don't know about Fran, but I need more than just a new bell or whistle to jump ship. As you remember, I skipped the entire V/VA series while I had my G1000, simply waiting for something RADICALLY different, not just an incremental improvement.

If Roland's NEXT G-series is merely as gradual a creep forward as Yamaha's model improvements usually are (to be honest, it seems that even they are only willing to make a great leap forward every ten years or so... Mega Voices, SA, etc.) I will probably be skipping it.

In the meantime, there are LOTS of people happily playing T2's, PSR 3k's, PA1Xpro, etc., not to mention T1's and earlier, so I feel in good company with those that don't feel an urgent pressure to jump ship every new model comes out.

It ain't just me and Fran, you know!

Bringing the post back to it's topic - I just returned from another gig with my Compact and it really performed well. This time I was able to setup with the Bose about 2 feet behind me and it made all the difference in the world. The room was about 40 by 100 with a low ceiling.

I tried using just one cable from my L/R output into the Bose - did't sound good at all. Changed over to two cables into a combo gadget going into the Bose. Made a worlds difference in both sound quality and sound level. So much for that issue.

I am seriously considering picking up a second Compact on Monday from the local GC and trying the stereo approach. These systems are so light it would be very doable for me.

Anyway, I don't play again until Tuesday and I will post results.

Hammer

Have you been running an SMF and taking a walk out into the room while the Bose plays, Hammer? Is there any noticeable difference in coverage or depth of sound compared to the full L1 system?

I generally don't find CD's as good a way of testing this, as evenly EQ'd and compressed as they tend to be. Only the sound of YOUR arranger, playing YOUR music gives you the real skinny, IMO...

Hammer,

I haven't tried the Compact, but given how good my S900 (and the T3) sound through through the two L1's, I know you're going to love the results.

It takes me about 10 minutes extra, overall, to set up two systems....but it's worth it....and they aren't heavy....a big plus for me.

I am always amazed at both the clarity and spread of the sound, and the way the two systems seem to open up the stereo sound of the arranger...a buddy of mine has a Roland G-1000 and the two systems have the same effect on it....he's buying another L1 to match his first one, now that he's heard the substantial improvement.

Ian

The problem with this is that, to judge sound quality, you HAVE to compare at identical volume levels (you know about the 'perceived EQ/Vol curve' thing your ears do, don't you?). If the sound LEVEL changed a 'world of difference' when you went to the two cords and a mixer approach, you aren't REALLY comparing apples to apples...

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there ISN'T a difference between mono out and external summing to mono, but without eliminating this variable you can't be sure...

The other thing that puzzles me about the whole thing is, if this problem DOES exist (and is not simply a result of the volume jump two cords and a mixer will give you), why are Yamaha owners not INCENSED about this issue, and demanding a fix? The electronics to make a true mono signal from a stereo one costs a few pennies, hardly something an expensive arranger can't afford to have on it... And this 'mono out' issue seems to have been out there for at least the PSR3k era onwards.

It seems something that the Yamaha engineers would not ignore, if it WERE true... This is why, rather than endless 'anecdotal' reports of the phenomenon, surely just ONE person knuckling down and actually doing the DAW test would put it to rest once and for all. Either the flaw exists, in which case you have every right to INSIST that, even if they can't fix YOUR arranger, they make sure it never happens on any future model of Yamaha arranger, or it doesn't exist, and is merely a product of everyone's imagination after hearing the sound through a different mixer chain... (and mass psychology in action )

It will only take ONE person to put this to rest. Permanently. Surely SOMEONE gives a damn?

Diki,

Today I did get an opportunity to play Midi files and walk the room. I used some commercial Midi files and also some of my own midi files. I walked every corner of the room from front to back and the coverage seemed to me to be the same as I get with my Classic L1. It always amazes me that the sound levels do not change as I walk around and listen. I sounded good enough to me that I will probably sell my Classic L1 and use just the Compact. Please keep in mind I am not playing ear splitting heart thumping current dance or trance music - only the old standards. Hell, how much sound or bass do you need for Misty or Tenderly? Ha Ha.

So far it truly does look like a real winner for me and what I need for my gigs.

Hammer

Happy for you, Hammer. Interesting to hear that a $1000 system is capable of performing as well as a $2500+ one, at least at this volume level. It will be fascinating to hear what stereo sounds like with this rig... Imagine! A stereo Bose system for less than the price of a mono L1mkII

I wish that more of us would be as honest as you when it comes to describing our usual volume levels. I think there would be far less rancor on this and many other issues if we simply 'fessed up to what level we are playing at, what type of music we primarily perform, what age range we perform for... All those 'variables' that make considerable difference in what we need to play, and what we need to play THROUGH, and what we need to play ON.

This is a pretty braod spectrum forum, and there's far too much assuming that whatever works for 'ME' should work for everybody else, too...

Does the the COmpact L1 works without the Tone match? can it be hooked to a mixer?

Thanks

Yes, the Compact works great without the tonematch and yes it can be hooked up to a mixer.

Hammer

Yes, it works with or without the T1 and can be used with a mixer.

I have a Compact and the T1 ToneMatch coming in this week. Hope to report on it by next weekend.

Glenn

Thanks Guys

Well, I'm getting old and I'm looking for something very light for my solo playing, I usually sing with soundtracks but I use an arranger from time to time, altough I don't have an arranger rigth now[sold the S700].

By the way I'm still looking for an S900 used, I got a few bucks saved so if anybody has a used one shoot me an e-mail or let me know here.

Thanks

Thanks

Hummm........so if I run the keyboard to a mixer in stereo and then from the mixer to the Compact L1, would I be OK, as far as the stereo sound its concerned?

The comments I read here are that the Yammie arrangers don't work well in Mono, so............

Vilo your stereo feed from your mixer will be summed into a Mono signal thru the Bose. You would need two Bose units top have true stereo, .. There also could be some phase cancelation issues also. If you do a search here you can read posts on this problem.
Good Luck

Make sure you get the PS for the Tone Match. The Compact does NOT have th standard T1 Input.

Today I hooked up both my Compact L1 speakers and tried them out together. The pictures show how I had them located. The room is very small - about 10 by 12 - a dinning room actually.

I played several Tiajana Brass MP3s converted to WAV files from my keyboard and the stereo effect was pretty awesome. I then played several midi files both commercial and some of my own and the stereo effect was noticably less. Then I played for about 2 hours - just stuff I normally play at gigs.

I played with just one L1 connected to the L/R output, just one L1 connected to the L only output, and finally one L1 connected to both L/R and R outputs using a combo gadget going into the L1. Well, let me tell you, the difference between two of them each connected to it's own output and only one of them connected to two outputs using a combo gadget is remarkable. The sound with two really fills out and is better than I expected it to be. I can't wait to try them both at my gig tomorrow.

I'll know more tomorrow after my gig - then again Friday I play 2 gigs so I should have a good feeling if it is worth the extra money. Right now I am guessing I am big trouble with the wife - two Compacts really rock.

Hammer

The Bose Compact concept sounds intriguing. At one point I thought I needed stereo, but I found that it’s no longer important for me. I made the rounds over the years – Toa, Peavey, Mackie, Genz-Benz, JBL, et al. For my money, the Bose L1 with a B1 produces the best sound. Portability may be a different story. For small venues, I went back to a couple of Barbetta Sona 31’s with a Barbetta SE 32 for back up. Actually I’ve been able to use just one Sona 31 for my restaurant gigs – that’s portability. I would really be interested in hearing how Donny or someone that performs boards and vocals feels about the compact Bose.
Ciao,
Jerry

I had a good feeling you would be impressed with the sound, Hammer...I have a friend who is very interested in getting two Compacts and he'll be glad to hear your findings.

Ian

Add me to that arranger list ... been playing my kn6000 since they first came out ... and I - and my audience - LOVE it ... ...
t.
PS ... of course some people might say I just don't like change - same wife for almost 46 years, worked for the same company for 40 years, played with the same band for 26 years .... ...

Just completed another gig with the Compact L1. This time I used two of them. The room is rather crowded and I am forced into a corner without enough room to get the L1s behind me. There are pictures over at the PSRTutorial(in the accessory hardware section) site that show my setup and the room. It is a lunch time gig with about 45 people present.

One thing I noticed again today. If the Compact is not behind you it really sounds muffled at the keyboard. In the back of the room it was clear as a bell - strange. I play 2 gigs tomorrow and in both places I will have enough room to get the L1s behind me.

I really think todays venue was not a very good test of the 2-L1 setup so I will wait until tomorrow to pass judgment. Transport and setup though is a snap.

hammer

Dean nice pictures...good luck.

Ian,
When you run your 2 L1s in stereo how far apart do you place them?

Hammer

Hammer,

Depending on how much room is on the stage or where I'm set up, I usually have them 6' to 8' apart and slightly behind me.

Ian

With as wide a coverage that the Bose's are supposed to have, if you can't get a stick behind you, can you place it far to one side and face it at 45º? That way you and your audience ought to be inside it's 'cone of coverage'... and in stereo, doing this to both ought STILL to cover the room well

Ok, only got to play one gig today. At my 2nd gig I was the first of three performers to show up expecting to play. I will get paid for the 2 hours. Now, about the first gig. I was able to setup my 2 Bose Compact L1s and get them about 2 feet behind me and about 3 feet to each side - they were about 7 feet apart. The room is an L shape, with tile floor and high ceilings. About 50 people were eventually there. I took some pictures to show the room and the setup which are posted at the PSRTutorial site under accessory hardware.

I still am not blown away by any "stereo" effect while playing preset keyboard sytles with the two L1s - but the overall sound is noticeabley fuller. I ran my keyboard about 12 O'clock to 1 O'clock and the two L1s at 10 O'Oclock and had plenty of sound even though at the keyboard it did not sound loud enough at times. The people in the rear said it was just fine. Another thiing to get accustom to with the Compacts - with the extentions in place and the speakers placed near the performer the sound goes right over your head making it a bit harder to get a feel for the sound level being produced. I think on my next gig I will try not using the extentions and placing the speakers on a table or chair at head level and see if that makes any difference at the keyboard.

What I have not done is compare the Compact directly with my Standard L1 which I will do tomorrow. Thats it for this time folks.

Hammer

Try using only one if the extensions. That should place the sound in line with you. I spoke with Bose tech support this morning and they could give me no reason not to use only one extension, even tho the manual states to use only both or none.

Glenn

Hi Glenn,
Great post - I had ruled out using only one extention because of the warning in the manual about using both. I think I will also give Bose a call tonight and see what kind of an answer I get. I will post what they tell me too.

By the way, I got your call - FYI - my wife and I are really tied up with helping my daughter with her new triplets. We take the midnight to 9AM shift, feeding every 3 hours, then my wife goes to work and we start all over again the next day. I have not even had time to practice or expand my gig stuff. I will get back to you though.
Hammer

Ok, I called Bose and asked about using one extention. The tech guy said he could not recommend doing that because the manual states otherwise - on the other hand he did not know why it could not be done. He advised posting on the Bose forum and waiting for one of the engineers there to reply - which I have done. When I get an answer i will post it.

Hammer

Ought to be fairly easy to explain...

Use half the stick, you have to hit it with twice the power to get the same volume. Twice the power, twice the distortion, twice the chance of blowing something up (the built in limiters will be calibrated to a full stick) and half the ability to throw out a linear sound wave (it's all those speakers stacked on top of each other that determines the wave shape) so half the coverage.

That make sense?

OOPS...! My bad...

Strike all the above, then...

Hey, but I did notice one thing... finally, some RCA ins and outs. Guess they need to bring out an L1MkIII with those on, now they understand the need for them.

For those of you that have stereo outs on your keyboards, why not use these ins for it instead of the mono 1/4" in, with the Tone Match preset already applied (does that mean that it is pre-EQ'd for a guitar?). That way, you don't need to bring an external mixer JUST to sum your stereo outs to mono if you are not confident about how well the arranger does it internally?

Diki,
The only thing I can think of is that possibly with both estentions in place the impedance is matched to the speaker array. I can't see any other reason to use both if you don't need to have the speakers up high. The Tech at Bose was not about to stick his neck out and say it was ok to use just one.

Hammer

Diki, the 1/4-inch input is switchable between TRS line input and guitar input. If switched to guitar, then a Tonematch preset for acoustic guitar is working.
The mic input has a built-in mic preset also, plus e.q.
The RCA and 1/8-inch inputs, plus the guitar/line 1/4-inch input are all controlled by the same volume knob, so if you are using more than one set of inputs, you must control the volumes individually from their sources.
Or, do as I do and use a mixer.
Hammer, there was discussion earlier on the Bose forum about using just one extension and it was reported than it did no harm.
I tried it and it seemed to work fine.
I suppose there could be some sort of resistance factor built in though.
It will be interesting to see if they answer officially.
DonM

Don,
I have used the Compact on about 4 or 5 gigs now and one thing I have noticed that is different from my Standard L1 is the Compact seems to be super sensitive to acoustics of the room. I'am not sure what to make of that until I use it more. I figure about 20 gigs should give me a good feel for it. I also have not noticed the extreme stereo effect that Ian talks about when I used two of them. Perhaps I am just doing something wrong. But as you would expect, the sound is fuller with two. I'll try using only one extention and see what happens.

Hammer

Hammer,

I'm not sure if it is because I am using two L1's rather than Compacts, but the stereo effect is not what I would say "extreme", but more like the "sweet spot" is very much more pronounced than if I was using conventional speakers, rather than Bose.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-16-2009).]

Are you playing an S900, too, Hammer?

I've got a nasty feeling that the 'sum to mono' problem that so many describe for the S900 (but no-one seems willing to quantify) may not be as big a problem for other arrangers. Kingfrog reports the T3 sums to mono internally acceptably, my G70 does, no-one has reported this on the Ketron's or Korg's...

Yamaha may simply have cut corners here, I don't know (but I SURE wish some S900 owner cared enough about the issue to test it properly)...

Donny,
I have used only my Tyros 3 with the new compacts so far. I am going to try the PSR3000 sometime this week too and I will have a report on how that combo performs.

Hammer

I find the Tyros2/3 also sum to mono less than satisfactory...actually, no different than the S900.

I believe the PSR-3000 will have the same issue.

When we used the Roland G-1000 through one Bose, it didn't sound a lot thinner like the Yamaha did...but, it did sound quite a bit better with two Bose...my buddy and I both noticed the difference, altough it wasn't as dramatic a change going from mono to stereo as with the Yamaha.

I have heard about the poor summed to mono from several other Yamaha users that use one amp/speaker...so, they are obviously designed for use in stereo.

If one Bose system will do the job for your keyboard, and you are very satisfied, then you certainly don't need two of them.

Ian

Whether they have cut corners or not is debatable, it may have been inherent in the design all along...I simply think 99% of the users play them through stereo speakers and don't notice it.

We must remember that most of the users are home players, and any extra speakers they use will more than likely be a home stereo or something similar.

I seem to remember the PSR-8000 I took over a buddy's place one time, and played through his Traynor KB-100 combo keyboard amp, which was mono, sounding a bit less than the way it did at my home through my stereo setup.

Another thing I've noticed in recent years, is that keyboard amplifiers are going stereo...the mono Traynor KB-100. for instance, was replaced by the stereo K4, the Roland KC-350/550 offer stereo expansion, and the KC-880 is stereo, so they must be doing this for a reason...someone is noticing that a lot of keyboards sound better in stereo...hence the demand for these amps.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-17-2009).]

Well, today I got up early and decided to put all three of my Bose L1s to the test so I set them up and played them with almost every imaginable configuration and this is what I think based on my own research and playing with the Tyros 3.

First of all - using just a single Compact and my Standard Classic L1 - there is no way in hell a single compact compares favorably to a standard L1. The Classic's sound quality is much fuller and seems to bring out more of the details of the styles. I played both the units with just one chan being input and than using both chans and I think I got a pretty good idea of what each will do. By the way - I played for over 3 hours for the tests using all kinds of styles and midi files.

Then I went on and paired up the units - using the Classic and a Compact together and then just two Compacts. Well, again, the Classic and Compact combo sounded pretty darn good.

When I ran my two Compacts together I noticed a hugh difference right away and that got me to thinking so I compared using two Comnpacts to just my single Classic and now there was not near as much difference. Close enough to call it a draw to everyone but the most criticle listener.

My conclusion it that if you want the very best of sound - use a standard L1 system. If on the other hand you are concerned about the weight issue and transportation(like I am) than go for TWO of the Compacts. Yes, there was a difference in sound but not that much to make a difference to most of the audiences I play for.

I can't imagine how good Ian's Two standard L1s sound together. Ian, we are not comparing apples to apples here.

Well, that is it for now. I posted pictures on the PSRTutorial website of my test setup if anyone is interested - under the accessory hardware section. Please notice my office space is really small about 11 by 11 - don't know how that effects the tests.

Hammer

Ditto here

.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-24-2009).]

Look guys... doesn't ANYONE have a simple audio recorder external to the S900 or Tyros?

Put up a short MIDI file. Preferably a piano piece, using the stereo piano. Stereo drums, some kind of sound with chorusing on it too (maybe a nice pad?).

Record it once in stereo, record it once in mono using the mono out jack.

Send the .wav files (NOT MP3 conversions) to me (use Yousendit if bigger than 10-15MB email attachments) and I will do the work comparing properly collapsed mono derived from the stereo with the mono out jack. I will post the results of the comparison.

DON'T play on the MIDI files. I want both recordings exactly the same.

Let's put this issue to bed once and for all...

Did some math.
Bose L1 Mod 2 - total weight of all pieces is 84.6 pounds
Bose L1 Mod 1 - total weight of all pieces is 91.1 pounds.

TWO Bose Compact L1 systems - total weight of all pieces is 58.4 poiunds.

Hammer

Believe me... big difference.

Glenn

And from what Ive been told so far BIG difference in sound also.

This is the reply from Bose.

"hammer,
We made the decision to be specific in the manual by stating that both extensions must be used when the system is used in its extended position. It is our belief that this provides the best sound quality for the majority of extended use applications.

Using only one extension will not harm your system but is not generally recommended.

Thanks Neil"

hammer

Hey Hammer! Do yo have any gigs in Dallas, TX?

I would like to listen to your Compacts.

Thanks

Yes I play in the general Dallas area. I play Thursday and Friday this week. Email me which day and I will give you the details.

Hammer

I'm thinking Thursday will be the best day for me.

Thanks

ViLo,

You got mail.
Hammer

Bose simply assume (and all their pics seem to show it) that the Compact is for a standing acoustic guitarist, at ground level. Surely getting rid of ONE of the extensions for a raised, sitting keyboard player would put the array at roughly the same position? With respect to not only the public's, but also the performer's ears...

I have to admit, also, that Bose would be unlikely to cut their own throats by bringing out a competing product to the L1 line that was close to indistinguishable, but well over HALF the price. My take is, if you can't hear a big difference, you aren't cranking them up far enough! And play music with virtually no bottom end already

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 05-19-2009).]

Got it..thanks

Diki,
good point - but for what I play it is perfectly fine. I actually do have a lot of stuff that would test the bottom end and volumn comparisons. I might try that tomorrow just for grins.

You know, just like keyboards, amplification systems are a personal preference and must perform well under the condiontions the performer expects to encounter. It's rather silly to randomly jump out and claim any system to be the "best" without first declaring firm criteria for the test.

I have pretty much determined that for my needs running 2 Compacts will do exactly what I need them to do plus lighten my load considerably.

Later,
Hammer