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#262637 - 05/09/09 12:20 PM
Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14220
Loc: NW Florida
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Personally, I don't think anyone has ever bothered to try to quantify the mythic 'mono out isn't as good as summing L&R externally'. It's fairly easy to test if you have a DAW. Same Piano MIDI file (why not use the Purgatory Creek one? ![](http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif) ), first few bars. Make one recording stereo, make another recording mono, out the 'Mono Out' jack. Convert the stereo recording to Mono in your DAW, then 'normalize' both files (this is important, to make sure they are EXACTLY the same volume). Now compare first by listening, and also if you can line them up to play simultaneously (line the peaks up to be sample accurate with each other) flip the phase (Invert phase) of one of the recordings, and then play. If they are IDENTICAL, one will cancel out the other, and you should hear basically nothing at all. If you can hear a difference, it should show up on the null test, too. But unless there is something seriously out of whack with the summing electronics in the arranger, you should hear very little. Personally, I would be surprised if there WAS much of a difference. Summing two signals to mono is not exactly difficult, electronically. But gain staging TWO outputs (L&R) into two channels panned mono, and ONE mono output into one channel so they are at EXACTLY the same level is quite hard. And the ear perceives even the slightest change in volume as a 'difference' in tone. Hence the 'anecdotal' reports of a possibly flawed Mono out. Me, I think the problem is MUCH more about certain stereo piano sample sets (to my ears, Yamaha are particularly bad in this regard) being somewhat out of phase (to exaggerate the apparent width) or poorly recorded, so that there are really noticeable changes in timbre when collapsed to mono, no matter HOW you achieve that... Making your manufacturer aware of your displeasure at how poorly the stereo sounds collapse to mono will do FAR more than worrying too much about going mono 'inside the box' or outside. They either take it into consideration when they make the NEXT arranger, or it will never improve, no matter WHAT the do to the Mono jack... )BTW, I have done simple tests on my G70, and have noticed NO difference between going mono inside the box or externally)
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#262638 - 05/09/09 01:54 PM
Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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The Bose is sub par with any of the Yamaha stereo sounds.
I can't speak for a G70 or Korg, but I can tell you without hesitation, there is a considerable loss in quality when a Yamaha arranger is used in the mono Bose(one system).
Believe me, I wouldn't have sprung for two systems if one would have done the job...and one system doesn't do the job well enough to my ears.
Biggest loss is the stereo pianos, like Live!Grand Piano, Cool!ElectricPiano and several of the SA and Mega guitars that are processed with stereo delay and chorus. The Leslie effect on the organs is drastically affected as well.
I think any instrument that uses stereo DSP of any kind would sound less than it should when played in mono in the Bose.
I first noticed the deficiency on a buddy's PSR-3000 being played through a Bose L1. He didn't mind so much, because all he was using it for was to play SMF, most of which he made himself, with just basically a style and very little, if any, right hand parts.
If all you do is use SMF, it might do the trick, but if you do a lot of instrumental tunes (I do all instrumental) with a Yamaha arranger(including the T3 and CVP) then there will be a difference.
Some can live with it....I couldn't. Hence, the two systems. Mind you, I don't regret buying them, because, believe me, they sound incredible and make both the T3 and S900 sound monstrous and super clean.
The way Yamaha chooses to stereoize it's pianos is not necessarily "bad"...it is just the way they want to use them in a home arranger, which will be played in stereo, either through the factory speakers, or through a home stereo.
The CP-300 provides a mono piano because it is meant to use through a mono PA, and because it is a professional stage piano.
I'm sure other arrangers may provide mono samples for this purpose. Yamaha does not. No big deal, until you use a mono system.
I tried the T3 and PSR-S900 in mono through a Yamaha Stagepas 500, and it affected them exactly the way the Bose did, so obviously, they are meant to sound their best in stereo.
So hear what you like, but I hear the Bose crippling the Yamaha sound in mono...whose fault is it? No one's, as far as I can see, as the Yamaha arrangers were never meant to be played in mono, and even though there is a L+R Mono output jack, it doesn't quite sum things down to mono...at least to my ears.
Bottom line, at least for me, the Bose sounds crappy in mono with Yamaha arrangers....or, vice versa, if you will.
Ian
[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-09-2009).]
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#262639 - 05/09/09 02:14 PM
Re: First Report on My New Bose L1 Compact
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14220
Loc: NW Florida
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I'm pretty much with you there, Ian, except for the blanket stereo statement... There ARE some arrangers that their piano, although VERY good in stereo, collapse to mono without nearly as much phasing issues as the Yamaha's do. And there are some WS's that provide mono piano samples based on exactly the same piano samples as the stereo ones. I simply feel that this isn't a universal problem, just one that Yamaha in particular could pay more attention to, vis a vis their piano samples. After all, they ARE a piano company... Surely their piano sample sets should be BETTER than the rest, not worse (at this particular function - we won't go into tastes, again ![](http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/tongue.gif) )? BTW, I am sure that stereo L1 system (you got the MkII?) is wonderful, but jeez! $5000+US for a stereo PA? ![](http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/eek.gif) You got a gold mine under your shack in the Klondike, Ian? ![](http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/tongue.gif)
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