Do you guys think Yamaha's price hikes are helping or hurting them? I'm curious to know why Yamaha jacked their prices to begin with too. I would assume Yammie played a business game to boost sales PRIOR to the price hike.., which would makes sense as to why it was so HEAVILY announced. Scare eveyone into buying the gear before the prices go up..., and I'm sure that worked for them to some degree

However.., I've been noticing something lately. I'm going to use one of Yamaha's budget workstations as an example. For a while you could get a Yamaha MO6 and a Roland Juno G for the same price. I'm not going to argue sound quality as that's so subjective and I don't think we can beat that old horse to death anymore than we already have. However.., in terms of features the Juno G is clearly a mile or two ahead of the MO in this area (not sure if you guys know but the Juno G is s sampling workstation now with the latest software update). Yamaha hasn't added ANYTHING to the MO line that compares to the Juno's software updates yet. It's just that I've noticed some places have increased the cost of the MO6 up to $1,099 (although you can still find it for $999 in some places).., but with Roland's deals you still get a more feature packed Juno G for less).

Not long ago they were both essentially the same price..., the Juno did a few more things.., but they went for the same price. When Yamaha did the price jack it then put the lesser featured packed MO6 at $100 more than the Juno G. Now Roland has a special that puts the Juno G $200 under the MO6. I could be wrong.., as I can't remember for sure if the MO line was or was not part of Yammie's price increase.., but I have noticed some online retialers have increased the MO's by at least $100. Perhaps they're getting a bit greedy too

Anyone else think Yamaha's maybe going in the wrong direction? They jack prices of gear that's been out for a while. Companies like Korg was dropping prices. Roland did a price jack on the Fantom.., but that was while ago too.

What do you guys think? Does it make sense for Yamaha to be jacking prices of gear that's been out for a while? I wonder if they're going to use the price jacks to set a bar for their next releases to be priced even higher. Kinda softening the blow to the consumer. Get everyone used to the jacked prices where they are now and when the new gear is released the price increase on that may not look as large since they increased price on current lines.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

To keep the playing ground level, it would also make very good sense to follow with the question:

Why has Roland not raised their prices?

Both topics can only invite speculation, unless one were to have inside knowledge of Roland and Yamaha marketing departments.

If someone does have this relevant information, I'm sure they'll be only too glad to disclose it on to a public forum.

Ian

Roland DID raise prices. The Fantom G line had a price increase a while back. Korg is reducing prices.., Roland raised the Fantom G's..., but is using the Juno G price drops trying to get a good hold on the budget workstation market. Roland continues to release very notable updates for the Juno-G and most recently turned the Juno-G into a sample workstation. Yamaha has done very little for MO owners at this point..., Korg has left a lot of room for the M50 line for updates too.

What bothers me is Yamaha jacked prices on gear AFTER it had been out for a while. Are they going to drop them back down eventually or take advantage of keeping those prices hiked so they can get even more money on the price increase with the new models by getting everyone used to the price hike first. If they keep prices where they are now with the jacks take into consideration how much that price increase will be on the new gear if they go on these current price jacks. There's only a $200 price difference between a PSR-S900 and a Korg M3 at the moment. Yamaha's price jack was on quite a few products. Just because Roland didn't jack all their prices doesn't mean somethings wrong on their end. Info I got was that Roland's Fantom G's prices before the increase was for introductory prices. Yamaha's price increase on the Motif XS line (at the time of the increase) was well past introductory.

I can understand Roland's price hike..., there's quite a bit the G does above all the others in terms of navigation.., Yamaha had to follow up to that. Yamaha waited a long time before jacking the Motif line's price.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Im sure these corporations well paid marketing & research teams know what they are doing in regards to pricing. Plus in the end you have the choice to buy or not.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-15-2009).]

It's funny how we so often just assume "they must know what they're doing". Yeah.., we got the option to buy or not.., but we consumers at least have the right to question these corps who "know what they're doing"

I think it's a very fair question to ask that if company way down the line jacks their prices on gear that's been out for a while..., if they'll be using that price jack as a basis for the next models. When the new models come out..., take the price jack away of the current line and then do the math to see what the real cost increase was.

My faux pas, Squeak, I was just going on the topic's title...I did not realize that Roland had increased prices on some products as well.

The question(s)really cannot be directly answered and can only bring speculation, unless, as I said earlier, someone has inside access to Roland, Yamaha and Korg marketing departments.

If all you are after is hypothetical replies, and musings, then the topic is fine.

Hard answers, however, will be difficult or impossible to obtain.

Ian

I'm just curious on what members thoughts are really. Not a pissing contest with brand A and brand B. Taking into consideration the economy.., it's just something that has me puzzled that's all.

Yamaha makes great sounding gear. They've clearly set the standard in some areas. I'm just curious why they would raise prices in this mannor considering they've already established themselves quite well over the years. I guess it would be different if Yamaha hadn't raised their prices so far into the line too.

Watching the news this morning I just see so much going down the tubes with the economy and have been curious if Yamaha plans on bringing those prices back down to what they were prior to releasing the new models. Otherwise the true price increase between these current models and the next may not look too bad BEFORE you take into consideration what the price was before Yamaha increased them so far into the game.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

well, I can't say for sure but I remember yamaha's s900 when up $100 in march and I can only think that maybe cost of manufacturing went up, parts, etc who knows. But as Donny stated before. you have a choice, don't buy it. This is a never ending arguement. I know for sure the $1799 for the s900 is a steal with all its sounds, styles and features. I think if your going to spend $1699, another $100 is well worth it.

Also If your comparing arrangers vs workstations, I think that they are two different animals.

It may be as simple as adjusting the price according to the value of the US dollar.
DonM

Doesn't it at all scare some of the PSR owners here that IF Yamaha bases the next PSR-S900 replacemnt on the CURRENT increased cost..., that the new model may be selling for close to two grand!!!!!!!

MC you'd be surprised that when you strip it down the many similarities there are between the two types of keyboards and even Yamaha is moving forward into helping that line fade. Too many arranger owners seem to forget that you're already using something that's on workstations. All those great guitar licks and riffs you're hearing on your arrangers are ARPS with chord recognition. Yamaha has blessed Motif XS owners with arps that "in some ways" give the player the feel of an arranger style play (finally someone did it). What you guys calls styles on arrangers are called patterns and arps on workstations. Just as much work goes into creating those too. Even Phil Clendenin at Yamaha will tell you how much work goes into making those great acoustic style arps on the Yamaha's that you find on BOTH arrangers and workstations. You guys have them in your PSR S series.., but use them a little differently. If you record say a guitar lick to a multipad on your PSR.., set it to loop and use it in your style.., you've just created a basic arp.

I for one would be happy to pay 2k or more for the next Yamaha S series arranger for sure...it's well worth every penny.

Fender raised their prices bigtime as well.

Not a bad thing for dealers because the margins between retail and MAP were increase a lot as well. The margins on some of the most popular gear were too thin. We took on few another guitar lines with good margins like ESP. Ibanez has good margins. So what do sales guys push? They push MARGINS. Why spend 20 minutes "selling" the Fender story when only 5 minutes is spent on an ESP with the same profit in real dollars to the store?

I had this discussion with Vox and Marshall reps. They tell us how to "sell" their products. If I have to spend a half hour convincing a kid to buy a Marshall with Internet margins vs 10 minutes on a higher margin same priced item, guess what will get the sale 5-1 equally priced Marshall amps. The $400 ESPs vs the $400 (now $650) Mexican Strats generate more profit so we have a larger selection of them than Fenders. Since Fender raised their prices, stores can now make more profit on the Std Strat so sales guys are inclined to push them unlike before. Now the same percentage margin on a $650 Fender generates far more income.

Yamaha raised their prices because they CAN. The Motif is the best selling workstation, the Arrangers are the best selling in their class. Korg lowered their prices to sell more. Roland has the most loyal fan base so they have to be really careful.
These guys know what they are doing.

This economy is bad for a lot of businesses. Music sales, although down, don;t seem to be suffering as much as clothing,toys, and many other retail outfits. Accessories and sheet music are the bread and butter during down turns.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-15-2009).]

Regarding the new S-series, $2000 for a keyboard that does essentially the same things (for my needs) as a much more expensive Tyros3, is still an incredible bargain.

MOTL arrangers, in all brands, not just Yamaha, have come a long way in the past number of years, and offer a very viable, and much less expensive, alternative to TOTL arrangers.

Ian

That's great Donny.., but what would you say to the home player? A semi-pro arranger built for the home market selling at nearly two grand is a huge chunk to swallow. Let's face it.., Yamaha's clearly not building em any better in terms of constuction.., but damn that price is going up real fast.

Cost of electronics is going down..., yet they're still pawning off repackaged hardware and asking more for it? I'll tell you this..., if Yamaha released an S-900 replacement and built it to the quality of say a Motif XS or at least close.., then it'd be much easier to take. However..., if Yamaha keeps the same home build and that cost hits nearly two grand..., I don't know man.., pretty iffy there.

For me I just think it shows Yamaha wearing their greed out on their sleeves. The old no shame in our game mentallity. Just as KingFrog said.., they raised them just because they CAN. They raised these prices well into production..., no new features or anything. Other makers are offering nice software updates with major new features for less or at the same price.

Yamaha plays catch up in some areas to Roland with the XS updates then jacks the prices well into production.

The big three aren't as safe as some of us like to think with the economy the way it is now.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Squeak,

You make it seem like the S-900 series is built so badly, it is going to fall apart within a few days of ownership.

We both know that isn't true.

Used as intended (home keyboard) they are incredibly reliable, and there has been relatively few issues. When the model was first released, there were a few issues, but Yamaha looked after all those problems, and has a very satisfied customer base.

It also has a two year warranty on parts and labour here in Canada, so it's covered in any event.

The S900 is not made to chuck in out of a van every night like a pro workstation, but there are many OMB players who treat them with a bit of care and respect that get more than their money's worth out of the instrument.

Ian

I know it's not built to fall apart in your hands Ian. I know it's designed for the home user. The S-900 is a good sounding arranger.., I'll agree to that. When looking at the bigger picture it's price sure as hell does not match it's "physical build quality".

I think the PSR S series are some nice sounding arrangers.., but I don't think it's asking too much that if Yamaha's going to tack on that price tag to build it a little better for you guys.

I HAVE played the S-900 myself. I was surprised to find out how many are actually in my area (was pleased to see this too). I was blown away by the sound quality of the S-900. Yamaha did a damn fine job too at fine tuning the S-900's sound to those internal speakers (that I give them an A++ on). IMO it just felt kinda cheap "physically".

Squeak 2k is NOT alot of money in todays age for sure. If someone cannot afford new there are many alternative purchases for used gear at a much lower price.

Donny.., if Roland can sell a Juno-G packed as full as it is with features for under $1,000 (which by the way although budget..., at least has a metal upper casing) then 2 grand is a lot for a plastic home keyboard.

Don't look at this an arranger vs workstation thing. Step outside of the box and look at bigger picture. Look at FEATURES and then cost.

Even the budget Juno-G offers some serious fetures over the S-900 (when looking at features to cost).., and Roland packed all that in for under $1,000.

The S-900 sounds great for sure.., but even the the low end Juno G is built better than the S-900.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Squeak we obviously have to different perceptions of what these units & features are worth to teh owner. Like I said for me I invest in gear I play it a few gigs that week, make more then I paid for it, the if I throw it in the garbage, sell it or whatever I lose nothing....if I keep going with it for a while it's all gravy after that....simple business 101.

People have an issue with plastic....The benefits far out weigh the negatives.
Plastic is LIGHT..which means its LESS apt to get bumped or dropped. A heavy metal keyboard dropping on itself can transmit far more shock to its innards then a more flexible giving plastic case which will absorb afar more of the initial brunt of the force.
I cannot think of any advantage of a heavy Metal board except for stability on a stand.
Both cases will take a thrown beer bottle LOL. The bottle with be less likely to break against the plastic case as well....LOL

I would have paid the same for my XS8 if it were made from the Tyros case....In fact I paid more for the all plastic Tyros!!


Heavy Metal cases are overrated and someday won't become a selling point.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-15-2009).]

In your position Donny.., I completey understand that yes it's a drop in the bucket because you see a fast return. However.., on both sides of the fence the home player outnumbers the performer by a huge difference.

Every so often I go into local stores to do demos for their keyboards.., and boy you guys have no idea how many younger players want an arranger.., but when they see what they can get on the other side for less.., well it's a lost game right there. Did a demo not too long ago and had a guy I knew who uses an S-900 in his church let me use his when I did a demo. I had 20 somethings wowing over the sound of the S-900..., but how many of those 20 something's do you think went for the semi and pro workstations after they saw what the price was for a plastic home keyboard.....

KingFrog.., Let Yamaha start putting plastic cases on their top end synths and watch how fast people start complaining about how easily it is to damage them on the road. Sure.., plastic does have a great benefit.., and that's a decrease in weight.., but put a platic shell on a synth that costs over $3,000 and consumers will go nuts. I don't see metal pro keyboards trading for plastic anytime soon. Maybe if the plastic was Kev. inforced

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Squeak...its called ambition
20 somthing??????? let them go get a job and earn the money for what they want...its called the American way. Plus its a good lesson in responsibility and life. !

Two grand for an arranger with the features such as the S900 possesses is not much money, considering, there are those paying nearly three times that for a TOTL arranger that does not do a whole lot more.

Donny has the right idea...for pros, $2000 is a small investment, considering how much that arbitrage will return in a few weeks or months of gigging.

Trying to compare a cheap Roland workstation to a MOTL arranger is like comparing hamburger to steak.

Home arranger players are a different breed than those that tinker around with inexpensive workstaions...the former want to sit down and make music right away, not spend hours assembling a piece of music like the latter.

Two different customers.

Don't judge by age Donny. I've seen plenty of 20 somethings that play the same styles of music here that would put members on this forum out of a job. Not all 20 somethings are into the rap, hippity hop, and modern stuff

Saw a guy not too long ago (kid was 22 years old) loved jazz, blues, big band, all the traditional.., and that kid was smokin! He played a PSR-S700 (SMOKING!!!!)



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Ian.., don't look it it as a arranger vs workstation. Look at FEATURES compared to cost. TAKE IT ALL INTO CONSIDERATION. Some budget workstations offer just as much if not MORE than semi-pro arrangers.

Ian if you think that workstation users are spending hours to create their music you're dead wrong. Workstation users are just as quick to pop out a tune. It doesn't take long to create multiple versions of patterns on a workstation and chain those together. You make song creation on a workstation sound like it takes forever to get something done when that's just the opposite

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Donny and Ian.., just on a side note. I tried to get that 22 year old to upgrade his S-700 to an S-900. Kids chops and vocals were hot! His solo work was amazing.., and I just couldn't help but think how much stronger his solos would have been if he had SA voices. His sax solos on the S-700 were quite good..., but man an S-900 in this kids hands would have been bliss.

Kid was a strong jazz player. Good jazz singer too. He even took modern music and turned those into jazz versions!



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

I can readily see this is not a thread for home users however I think our perspective should contribute as well.
Surely the manufacturers of these keyboards must have a need of home user support. How many semi or pro buyers can there be compared to the home user that is the one who supports these products.
I am no longer a pro user for several years now. Oh sure I do a gig once in awhile but I don’t count that. That random gig doesn’t even buy Donnie’s used Keyboards.
So how much are us home users willing to pay for a have it all arranger, now that 639,000 of us a week are loosing our jobs, our houses, our cars, and our reputations?
Who will buy the home arranger if the choice is between insuring your family under an exorbitant priced Cobra Policy and a new have it all, do it all arranger keyboard?
Maybe the pro buyers have to pay more now in order to replace the home buyer who is no longer buying.
I used to pay 10 to 20 thousand for an organ and 5000 for an arranger in the piano stores and be glad to do it and get it.
What am I willing to pay now? What will formulate my decision?
Depreciation and available cash will be big part of that decision. What does the newest and greatest have to offer the home player that we probably already have in our current keyboard? Not a lot probably. New styles? We can download them all over the internet. We can also make them.
How often does the home player play his home arranger that he needs all the latest bells and whistles. I play mine about 4 hours a week now days.
Depreciation?
I play a tyros 2 that list at about 4000.00. I just had a quote from Musician 123 or whatever they name is that buys your gear or takes trade. Their offer for my mint Ty 2 with max hard drive and Ram installed was about 600 for cash and about 800 for a trade in.
Do you think this excites me to buy the latest and greatest at ah exorbitant price if there is no return on it?
I also play a Roland E 80 that had a list price of 5000. I See these Roland jerks are now pedaling them off for 2000 a pop.
Do you think this would excite me to go buy another Yamaha or Roland.
I still have a PSR9000 in here that I have never sold because of the depreciated value. There are 8 more keyboards in here that I have never sold. I also have a complete recording studio in here that I have never sold. I have never sold these because I have been unable to come to terms with the depreciated values. Like Donnie sez use them, write them off and pedal them. How do us home users do that Donnie?
There are nearly 7 million people out of work in the us today. They are trying to live on unemployment checks that max out in California at 450 a week. This barely buys food here and not keyboards.
I may soon just take up playing the phonograph
That is the perspective of this home player regarding price increases for a new over priced keyboard.
Best to all,
OLD RETIRED BEBOP
PS: I forgot to add that half the keyboards in here are Work Stations. They go back to the pro working days. One is a dedicated sampler. They don't have much value either

[This message has been edited by BEBOP (edited 05-15-2009).]

What budget workstations do not offer is the instant gratification of an arranger.

With the arranger, you immediately have a full band backing you in real time, with fancy intros and endings (some like them), real time fills, on bass chord recognition, and in the case of the S900, powerful and expressive SA and mega voices that are superior to most workstations, even some that cost far more.

Arranger players want to play now , workstation users, not all, mind you, tend to construct music.

That's why it's called a "work" station...they could have called arrangers "play" stations but I think that term has been copyright by Sony.

I still contend they have different users with different needs...though there will be exceptions.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-15-2009).]

BEBOP..., THANK YOU! Exactly..., too often the home users voice gets burried on these issues. For every performer on the Zone there's probably 10 that play at home. These prices can and DO hurt the home
player.

People on the forum seem to think I hate Yamaha..., but the truth is I WOULD own a PSR-S900 right now if it was built better and had better quality keys. S-900 tickled my pickle man! I'm not just into modern music.., as I do like traditional styles. The S-900 actually fits my needs for traditional music.., but I ain't payin that amount of money for that build quality. Sorry.., but I can't.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Ian you cant speak for the instant gratification of the workstation player. How do you know that workstation players don't get instant gratification out of the box. A style isn't always instant gratification as that has many forms. Instant gratification for a workstation player can be wetting your pants after auditioning the arp section on a Motif XS for example. Hell for Motif owners instant gratification can be just by simply turning the beast on and seeing that NEW SCREEN

Different forms of instant gratification...it just drives home the point that they are for different kinds of users.

I demo workstations and use them a lot in the studio, but they are different beasts than the arrangers, and consequently, require different masters.

Again, there are exceptions...I am one of them, as I use both, depending on my musical needs at the the time.

Ian

Is there an arranger made by another company, roughly in the same price range as the S900, and with as many features, that has the quality you want, Squeak?

Ian

Nope.., but I still ain't payin that price for a plastic home keyboard S-900 sounds great.. Love the SA voices.., not too fond of the drum kits.., but acceptable. Love the orchestral voices.., good styles, blah blah blah.., but it ain't built like a $1,700 keyboard. Sorry Ian.., I just dont' see how Yamaha can charge that price and build it that way. I'm not saying it'll fall apart in my hands.., but it's not built well enough for my tastes.

Not too fond of the key action, but it's passable. Still.., a little under 2 grand for a plastic home keyboard.., nope ain't buyin it. I still say if Roland can feature pack the Juno-G as they have and build that pupply with solid button contacts and give it a metal panel for less than a grand.., well Yamaha can up their build quality too.

Ian I've had a Juno G and S-900 side by side. The G may have plastic end caps, but the overal feel to the buttons is better IMO.., and the panel is at least metal. Not even comparing sounds either. Just overall build quality.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

Bill I understand your position & thank you for your thoughts on this topic.Home players are making themselves happy playing music......& that is priceless. We have short times on the earth, how we choose to take life's journey is up to each of us & we all do it different. I'll bet you can still make great music on anyone of those arrangers you have in your home due to your talent not the unit itself. You cannot change the way the market conducts business & to make a profit to exist is a fact of life although we might not like it as in depreciation....a car for example being one of the worst investments ever & a cancerous cash cow at best. Technology is in its infancy for sure now....imagine whats in the horizon in the years to come .....in a few short years what we have now will surly be atiquiquated..........money, money, money, rules the world but dont let it rule yoruself.

Good luck my friend.

Squeak......
plastics will be the norm very soon on most keyboards & so many other products....new lightweight compound materials are being produced that are stronger and more durable then metal every day. And I'm glad for sure......

Donny YOU the consumer have more power than you think. You want prices to drop.., then don't buy the next upgrade. All the makers bank on you UPGRADING your entire keyboard. You can drive the cost down FORCE their hand.., just by NOT buying their next biggest and greatest thing.

The keyboard makers always remind me of that movie ANT'S. At some point all those little ants realized they outnumbered those grasshoppers like 200 to 1. When they realized it the tables turned. It's like the keyboard makers are grasshoppers who are smaller in numbers.., and the consumers are the wee little ants in this. The consumer can drive cost down. Give into their greed.. and they'll just get more greedy.

I don't see the makers switching over to plastic bodies on the high end models anytime soon Donny. Sorry.., but I can't see this happening (at least not for a long while).

I can't wait to see any of the top three release a TOTL workstation made from plastic and see how consumers take that. Plastic seems to more acceptable in the arranger market for people who want feather light keyboards. Weight isn't as much an issue with workstation owners as you hear it brought up so much more in the arranger community.

People here bitched about the weight of a G-70 but as Diki and Fran can tell you that weight is for a reason... Clearly better quality DOES translate into increased weight. You want a featherweight then hey.., enjoy the plastic.., but there's a huge number of us who have no problem with a few pounds if it means it's built better.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 05-15-2009).]

I thought the Korg PA-800 was plastic, and I know the Tyros3 is plastic, and yet they seem to hold up remarkably well.

So, an S900 is going to do the same.

I doubt very much if metal will continue.

Plastic composites, and even carbon fiber, are slowly taking their place and giving strength and lightness...and they are much more renewable and environmentally friendly

Buying a G-70 for portability is like downloading porn to savor the cinematography.

Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Ian

If the last six months has taught us ANYTHING at all, it is that 'they' haven't got a CLUE what 'they' are doing

They are going for fast profits at any cost whatsoever

Squeak, you and Diki go after the grasshoppers...you guys could use the big old G70 as a battering ram.

Meanwhile, us other ants will go on with the business of making both music and money.

Ian

I'm not sure, but I think you want a Honda Accord for the price of a Hyundai Accent. What do you think the s900 should be sold at than $1200, $900, $500. So within the mid-range arranger keyboards there is nothing that satisfies your needs vs. the price that you feel it’s worth. Korg PA500, Ketron XD9, Roland E50/60. You’re complaining about keyboards being expensive for home users. There are other options, s700, s500, pa50, even the entry line of Yamaha or a used upper level arranger.

The S900 is an extraordinarily good arranger, in an extraordinarily bad case. There is little to compare it to. Most other good arrangers come in good cases, and bad ones in bad cases.

The car comparison, if you want one, would be Honda making a shoddily constructed car with decent performance, but then charging almost as much for it as a similar performing car of theirs that WAS constructed well... but no cupholders

So, if you want cupholders, you HAVE to buy the shoddy built car. You would feel ripped off as much as I would...

Well said Diki. The S-900 IS an an extraordinarily good arranger, in an extraordinarily bad case.

I don't believe so, but we are all entitled to our opinions. I don't see the quality anyless than PA500, Xd9 or Roland e50/60.

You are entitled to you opinion, Diki, even though it is clearly wrong to those of us who actually use an S900.

You are right in part...the S900 is in a league of it's own, and I'm sure Roland would love to have had half the success with the E-50 as Yamaha has with their little gem.

The case is made of plastic...so what...it's very strong, and very light, and probably less expensive to manufacture, so the instrument has a lower price....more affordable....ch ching!

Ya think that Roland would catch on to this concept.but, no, they haven't, and it shows in their sales.

I remember when the E-20 came out...plastic body...lightweight keys around $2500 Cdn...but it smoked everyone else because of it's incredibly warm LA sound and very well done styles....I bought one, and so did a lot of others, and for several years, Roland was on top...no one cared if it was plastic...it could have been made out of pie dough for all anyone cared...Roland's arrangers had raised the bar.

Then Yamaha made the PSR-910/1700/2700 and finally caught up, and with their PSR-8000, they were easily the equal, if not superior to Roland.

The S900 is one of those products that sets another standard, not quite the same way the E-20 did, but it sure is giving everyone else fits when it comes to "bang for the buck".

Plastic schmastic...who cares...the instrument is clearly a winner.

Ian

As opposed to it's owners.

What you consistently fail to acknowledge is that, while Yamaha are making the PSR, they are also making the MoXS6, very little more expensive, HUGELY more capable and voiced, basic chord following for arps and loops that are radio ready, not nursing home ready...

Now. either the MoXS is wrong, they should make it like the S900, or the S900 is wrong, and should be built like the XS6. But it can't be neither. The S900 is a scaled down T2, sure... but the XS6 is the TOTL Yamaha. Only difference to the XS8 are the keys. In other words, Yamaha sell their XS6 for little more than the S900, but $1500 LESS than a T3. And it is easily comparable to the latter, NOT the S900.

Yamaha's MOTL WS is the MO6, at around $1000. and as such, should be compared to the S900, not the XS6. Construction IS poorer on the MO6, but still not quite down to the S900's level, and it is $600 LESS.

So.... Yamaha are entitled to make a profit, but only from arranger players?

Diki,

Smileys don't change words.

Nastiness is still nasty, even if followed by a grin.

Now, to answer your question; yes, they can have it both ways.

It's clearly their prerogative, and it seems to be working very, very well, according to sales and owner satisfaction of both lines.

Ian

I agree and I said I yearn for the day when Metal is not a selling point. I don;t see any advantage to iron cases. I am sure shock transmission is not absorbed as well as with a plastic case. So the whole "protection" thing escapes me. Now if they want to claim less noise due to better grounding....I might buy that. The PSR900 is way over priced as far as I am concerned because if nothing else it's key bed is horrific (and this from a self taught player) In that regard Yamaha is failing their customers, But the keyboard operation and sonic quality easily overcomes the limitations of the keybed....

I have never had a customer complain about not having a heavy metal case though.....In fact quite the opposite. they are pleasantly surprised at how light the board is.!!!

Strange, but I've never had a PSR-S900 customer complain about the keybed...not one.

Seems they expected the action to be light and fast, and different than the Tyros2/3, and the same as the previous PSR-3000.

The original Tyros' weakness was it's keybed, which I felt was substandard for the price, and the FSX keybed on the T2/3 was a nice and needed improvement.

The only complaint I've ever received about the S900 was it's screen angle...and, come to think of it, there was one guy who thought the DSP/Var buttons should be on the left instead of the right...I use a foot-switch, so it doesn't matter to me, but I could see his point.

These are only small details, and there were no complaints about the S900 (or Tyros) being made of plastic...as Froggy says, they were pleased it was so light.

Ian

If you feel that the Tyros keybed was substandard for it's price, how come you don't feel the same way when WS's at close to equivalent prices by the same manufacturer are noticeably better...?

And don't spin me, Ian. You are 'losers' for having 'lost' the inclusion of a decent quality keyboard for the price you paid. No need to find insult, old chum. Ever lost your keys? Did it make you a 'loser'? English is such a slippery language. You can read anything into it you want, if you try hard enough, I guess...

Just tell me, plain and simple, no dodging... would you COMPLAIN if Yamaha upped the build quality to the equivalent of it's WS line? Of course not... or that would make you a 'whiner', too

(BTW, do I really have to start riding you for hardly veiled insults like that one you dished out too, or can we just cut each other a little slack? )

As far as the insults go Diki...you were the first to toss down the glove...you don't need to cut me any slack, but it would be in your best interest to cut out the guff.

Regarding your question...I'm quite happy with the S900's keybed as it is...I like the action a lot...I have said this many times in the past.

If they changed it to the workstation keybed, which I like very much as well, I'm sure I would get used to it.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-16-2009).]

Would calling what I post 'guff' qualify as an insult, Ian..?

Look, we spread these things over several threads at times. Who's keeping score about the first snarky thing that is said? Without a doubt, I can find at least as insulting a reference on your part on another thread. So, don't act all wounded on one thread while you are dishing out the same 'guff' on others...

Oops! there I go again...

For instance, it's curious how you find it impossible to discuss Yamaha, without tossing in some pretty overt Roland bashing. You know, I KNOW that Roland could improve considerably. But not their build quality. And I am perfectly happy to discuss what could be improved. However, you have a problem sticking to the issue of Yamaha's build quality. Whatever they make is good enough for you, good bad or indifferent. Time to bash the competition, rather than civilly discussing the issue. Start a Roland thread if that's what you REALLY want to talk about. It's pretty obvious you bring in the Roland zingers when you haven't actually got anything constructive to say other than 'whatever they do is fine by me'...

And that, my friend, is called 'obfuscation' and 'misdirection', NOT 'discussion'.

Diki the Whiner

AMEN!

OK. I guess you must be the "question fairy"...you know, sort of the converse of the "tooth fairy" - leave a couple of easy to understand statements on a post somewhere, and, whoops, a question from the "fairy" suddenly appears.

Now, if I could only find the "Porsche fairy" ....

I see you have an assistant...at first I thought there was an echo after your posts...it turns out to be just a little squeak.

Of course, the above is stated with tongue firmly in cheek...mmmm....just where are those tongue-in-cheek smileys when you need 'em?

Seriously, it is also quite curious how you find it impossible to discuss Roland, without tossing in some pretty overt Yamaha bashing...read some of your old posts sometime...very enlightening.

You know, my friend, it's not too difficult for you to see my faults when you possess the same...that's precisely why it is so easy for you to recognize them.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-16-2009).]

Aww man, i was having such a good entertaining time LOLI(out loud inwardly)reading the last few posts i thought i'd gone & wet my pants..turns out my pants were the ones getting pissed on..yet again!
:0
Synthzone rocks!how people get turned off by the deameanor of this forum & leave like the world shall now pay for their disgruntled absence does not at all interest this lil 'sqweak'.Even during slow times minds are sharp here.Just about every forum i lurk around has the same vibe:
'say it nice and tread nicly now'.
Gets old..I wantta be young cough cough weez weez..fall'n can't..get..up.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 05-17-2009).]

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 05-17-2009).]

Amen to both the above posts... wet myself reading the last one

Sorry, Ian, you're right.. we both swim in the same sea and get up to the same shenanigans. With you, in particular and with several others, I must confess to receiving and dishing the same stuff, I just don't get as worked up about it. But about the only thing getting my goat lately here are just unveiled, unsubtle and absolutely unfunny personal flames, without the slightest attempt to make them arranger orientated... (or even toss in a smilie or two )

You never fall into that, and I appreciate that. Occasionally, both of us rub each other the wrong way, but it never gets personal (or at least I know it isn't intended that way) in the mean way that some others do...

However, perhaps one thing that you and I have differently... My criticisms of the Yamaha's are done with a wish to actually OWN one... IF they had 76's, IF they were better built without the huge cost penalty that the T3 imposes, IF the MIDI implementation was more flexible, etc., etc., I'd actually own one, and integrate it with my G70. I have a nasty feeling most of what you criticize the Roland's for isn't with a view to making it acceptable enough to own...

I have a feeling most of your Roland jibes are done simply to exult in Yamaha's 'perceived' superiority . Which, for many aspects, it has. But don't think for one minute that, IF I owned an S900, I wouldn't be finding as much wrong with it as my G70 has! That's just me.

I often come here to basically voice how and why I think things could be much better with arrangers than they are right now. And this, as anyone should know, includes my own arranger as much as anyone else's. I think this is our difference. I simply want things to be better, whether with your arranger or mine..

And you seldom appear to want ANYTHING better...

I'm glad you see the humor, and not anything nasty, because those were not my intentions...you know I enjoy your posts, and you do really know what you're talking about 99% of the time ...that's important, considering there are a few here who merely blather away just to get attention, or post bigoted and mean comments that are only intended to hurt...we know who they are.

I don't know if your above statement is correct, Diki...I had a PSR-3000 that met my needs quite nicely....great sounds, mega voices, great styles, nice lightweight cabinet...I even bought a spare...dead reliable as well.

I would have kept them, but Yamaha slipped me an S900 mickey, and because I am always looking for ways to improve my sound, I succumbed...the SA Sax and Guitars had me hooked.

The S900 is very similar to the 3k, and I like it for the same reasons as the latter, but I got it because I wanted "something better" ...even if it was only incrementally better, because the more I enjoy playing, the more that feeling gets passed on to the listener

Consider my recent investment of two Bose L1 systems... I wanted a system for doing concerts, and one that would provide coverage...I could have used one L1 system, but I wasn't satisfied with the sound in mono, so I bought two. Waste of money? Maybe, to some, but it was worth it to me. It wasn't an impulse purchase...I tried them out extensively, and only when I was thoroughly satisfied they sounded that much better, did I make the investment.

Would every listener notice? Maybe not, but I get lots of compliments on the sound (no hot spots) and because I enjoy the experience of being in stereo, the feeling gets passed on to the audience...it's infectious...if you look like you're having a great time playing, the listeners pick up on it....and vice versa.

I remember you making a statement, "the devil is in the details" , and it makes a lot of sense. I try to work on the details (reworked styles, proper panning and EQ'ing, appropriate music, proper volume), because they will make the difference between a great performance and one that is merely adequate.

I know you do the same, and it shows in the tunes that you have shared with me.

So, yes, my friend, I do want and care about having things better.

Ian

Emphasis should be on people learning "how to play better " FIRST & Foremost.....the new technology will come in due time one way or another but that wont change your playing skill.What we already have today is more then adequate.... That will leave you to choose what units you'd like to purchase.
If you have the money you buy it ....if you don't try other options ....used, demo models, financing etc, etc, ... or wait a few years till the prices drop drasticly.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-17-2009).]

Originally posted by squeak_D:
Donny YOU the consumer have more power than you think. You want prices to drop.., then don't buy the next upgrade. All the makers bank on you UPGRADING your entire keyboard. You can drive the cost down FORCE their hand.., just by NOT buying their next biggest and greatest thing

Getting back onto the pricing discussion, don’t you need to consider the
companies accountants; as I was lead to believe happened with the Technics Company.

Fred Wren

We are pretty similar, Ian in many ways, but here illustrates the difference, I think... While you had the 3k, you WERE looking to improve your sound. While you have the S900, you ARE looking to improve your sound. It's an ongoing process. And I share it, too. But WHILE I'm looking for a better sound, I like to talk about what it IS that I would like to see...

You seem to be more content to just use what you have without any speculation (or 'customer feedback' ) about what MIGHT be improved. But you'll be happy to use whatever improvements come out, when they do Me, I like to speculate on those improvements, get some kind of discussion going, perhaps help the company lurkers (we both know they come here) realize what the 'thinkers' in the customer base would like to see. I know it is uinlikely, but who knows? Eventually, you might see a suggestion that you make become reality.

Roland actually DID take a couple of my suggestions through back channels when the G70 was first getting upgraded (sadly, not all!), so perhaps I have a different perspective on the effectiveness of this speculation... I simply feel that, what can it hurt? If there's something that COULD be better, lets talk about it. I am not here to 'bash' Yamaha, but simply to discuss why I don't already have one. Quite a lot of people that don't use Yamaha's have an admiration, grudging or not , of many aspects of it. But the reasons we don't have one are legitimate, too... just as yours of Roland are, too.

But it IS frustrating, from time to time, knowing that you DO want to sound better, play better, operate the arranger better, to have you so forcibly deny that ANYTHING ever needs changing. Until it does, and then it's the same thing all over again. If the 3k didn't need improvement, you would still be using it... And whatever you get after the S900 will prove the same.

Let's have a little fun, and talk about what those changes might be, BEFORE the S900's successor comes out, rather than after...

I can tell you what I would like to see on the next S-series.

1. Same screen as Tyros3, but no tilt.

2. Another wheel and another pedal input.

3. The organ module and extra effects block from the T3.

4. Improved music rack.

5. No glitch when changing patches.

6. New vocal harmony

7.Relocate USB/Flashdrive port.

8.More registrations per bank...16 would be nice.

9.Larger User Style bank.

10. Guitar voicing in Style Creator.

11. More One Touch Settings (OTS)...8 instead of the current 4.

12. More SA voices.

The S900's OS is very efficient as is...only one update since it was introduced (Firmware v1.23), to fix a problem with DHCP client for Internet Direct Connection on early production models.


Ian

I'll add to that list...

BIGGER Tilt color Display

MFD that saves ALL registration info including transpose

on deck...separate simultaneous playing modes for styles, smf, mp3

larger capacity Flash Ram

slightly bigger speakers with a bit more power

make it BLACK

nuetric DUAL mic inputs w/seperate vol.

I'd say all you suggestions are possible Donny, except for the tilt screen and Neutrik DUAL mic inputs w/seperate volume...you may see a panel volume control like the Tyros.

The newer MOTL arrangers always have had a feature that weren't on the previos Tyros...the 3k had USB to Flashdrive (T1 didn't have it), the S900 allows digital audio recording without a HD(T2 needs an optional HD).

An MP3 player could be a possibilty...the S900 already has a Wav. player.

Black cabinet may be in the next gen, but I doubt if they'll offer both black and silver...it will be one or the other.

Ian

Ian.....maybe not a full flip tilt but at least an inch or so fixed would be nessassary also.

the VH & MFD really needs an overhaul. The rest is just more fluff..

otherwise I can live with it as is for now no prob....

Donny,

If they use the TFT screen from the T3, you probably won't need tilt.

New Vocal Harmonizer would be very nice...but who knows...it wasn't changed on the T3, so I'm not sure a next generation MOTL would have it...would be more likely on the next Tyros.

MFD may be changed, but again, I think it will be for next Tyros if they do it at all.

Ian

See...? That didn't hurt so bad after all, did it?

Your priorities and mine might be different, but just like the Roland's, there IS room for improvement (and I like your suggestions, too)

See what happens when we all just back off a little, and take things a bit calmer...?

Diki the Mellow One

Oh I agree. Old habits are hard to break. But I believe the real reason a Tyros costs more than a Motif XS is because they sell far less of them and they are sold mostly to older people who appreciate the lighter weight.

One thing I have learned about Yamaha..they KNOW their markets...

And exploit them ruthlessly...

One has to be open to exploitation to be exploited.....

Would I have purchased a Tyros if I could not get it 10% less than wholesale cost.....A resounding HELL NO....I would have kept the PA2X and bought the XS sooner.

Unfortunately, most TOTL arranger buyers are not like you.
Most of them pretty much say “exploit me exploit me!!”
Just read the comments on the first page of this post.

When a product is priced ridiculously high and the buyers of that product are saying that they agree with the product being ridiculously high, then there is no incentive for the manufacturer to make the price lower.

Yes, I agree, and it seems to be the status quo for Wersi and Ketron clients, and potential customers.

They just keep uttering, "Exploit us!" "Exploit us!"

We hear their justifications echo in the hallowed halls of Synth Zone nearly every day.

Hay you forgot to say users of Yamaha, Korg and Roland. I.E PSR s900, Tyros, G70, PAx pro 1 and 2. I will forgive for your mistake.

Nope, I did not "forget"...I knew you'd reply with your opinion about who else should be on the list.

I was wondering what took you so long.

yamaha is deliberately taking advantage of their well positioned lineup in the workstation and arranger market, sad to admitted, seems pretty obvious others (roland and korg) are not doing that well, M3 which now packs a lot for its price(M3 XPanded for free) this is the first time ever seen such dramatic improvement for free in last years. Roland was still selling X series(early 2009) I found an X6 for $1100(brand new, they have GW-8, which is great for latin market ($749), Juno G(keeps improving every time) and now Juno Stage 76(a bit expensive but price will drop off eventually). Remind me of toyota cars in my country 10 years ago when they have luxury prices (2.5x times)what it cost here for comparable models. they used to say right in your face "you want it, you pay for it"

Not that it in any way justifies Yamaha's prices, but Ketron seems to be doing the same thing...you want it, you buy it.

Unfortunately, they are are selling a product that isn't quite finished.

Perhaps Roland arrangers will benefit from these actions, Lord knows they need it.

Come to think of it, neither Roland and Korg have anything new on offer, the E-series is apparently still intact and supported, and PA2xPro/PA-800 are upgraded as far as they'll go, so these companies should be reducing their prices accordingly.

Certainly a different strategy for a company to raise prices during an economic downturn...maybe they know something the others do not.

To me that's a company "exploiting" the economic crisis. It's not just Yamaha or in music instruments. It's an old business trick. You want to increase volume in sales.., just make it well known to the public that you'e raising your prices.., so if you've been putting off buying that new lemon fresh synth or arranger.., you better get em now before the price goes up. It works too...

The real kicker is.., when the economy gets better and the currency gets stronger.., DO THOSE PRICES GO BACK DOWN?

It works until the day the price actually goes up...what happens after then?

Ian

Worked for me..I bought the XS8 becasue I wanted to get it before the wholesale price increase to keep as much of the resale value as possible. Working for a dealer I buy for 10% under dealer cost and agree not to sellt sell for a year ....However with both the Tyros and the Motif I plan to sell them just before the new models are released which will be past the year mark and buy the new Models for 10% under.....I will keep this up as long as I am working for a dealer. Wash Rinse repeat...Its too good a deal not to take advantage of. Korg is only 5% under wholesale for dealer employees. Still not bad. Yamaha is smart to do this because I can be an expert on their gear actually owning it and they are right because I am the only one ion the store who has sold Tyros' and Motifs. Everybody calls me over to demo the stuff.....because I own it at much lesser financial peril on the used market down the line.

Win Win.

PS Anyone who owns a US or Mexican Strat just had their used values increase 20% as well. People paid $999 for a new American months ago that are now priced at $1250 MAP.

As I've said many times, I am in no rush for a new Roland. Mine is working fine, makes me money, and there is nothing available that is better across the board, at any price.

Sure other arrangers got stuff the Roland doesn't have. And the Roland has a lot of VERY important stuff (to me, at least!) that they still have yet to develop. No point making a change if it is a push...

Whatever OS problems are left I can work around, and nobody on any other arranger wants me to come over to their camp, buy a Yamaha or Korg or Ketron and start talking about all the things that are wrong with THEIR arranger! If they want to keep the shortcomings secret, fine by me

I have so many translations and third party stuff to tweak, new styles will not be a problem for years! (It'll take almost that long to audition them all ). In the meantime, there isn't THAT much coming out new for any other arranger that I consider up to their ROM standards, so it's still a push, for me.

I ALMOST find myself in Ian's shoes... happy enough with what I have got, for now. Mind you, that still doesn't preclude me TALKING about what I would like to see, IF Roland get off their fat arses...

If the next S-series is not what I want, I'd be more than content to stay with the S900.

I've got over 3000 styles on my HD, a lot of stuff to play around with, and I already am very pleased with the overall instrument.

If, on the next S-series, they upgraded the drawbar organ to T3 specs, that would be the only thing to make me really want to change...otherwise I can live with the rest very easily.

Ian

You wouldn't like the new guitar NTT's? Maybe some new SA2 voices? Those new drums?

How about a Chord Sequencer...?

Come on, Ian.... dream a little!

None of those things are that important, Diki, I've become accustomed to working around the lack of a chord sequencer, and I doubt very much if we'll see one in the near future...and, if we do, it might be on a Korg or perhaps a Yamaha (who never had it) as Roland seems to have dropped it for good.

The guitar NTT are okay as is, and since I do 99% of my style making by swapping parts around, I don't feel it would be that important.

I'd like more SA1...the SA2 do not decay when you hold down sustain pedal...I like to use the sus pedal as a volume fade....I like how Yamaha's panel voices respond to the sustain...the GM/XG voices do not have this characteristic.

I would appreciate a patch hold so there would no glitch when changing, although I have a very good workaround that involves swapping voice 1 and 2 locations for the right hand sounds.

So I'm pretty content, and willing to wait and see.

I put in my contributions to Yamaha Japan, but I'm just a little spoke in a very big wheel, so I really can't say how influential my input would be.

Ian

We are ALL pretty small spokes (except for a certain amphibian, that thinks it's the whole wheel )... but if you don't mind sending your suggestions to Yamaha, what harm is there in discussing it here, either?

The thing is, whatever Yamaha DO put into the next PSR, you will probably find it worth upgrading to. Surely you too aren't in the 'Yamaha's model increases are too incremental' camp too?

Indeed I am the whole wheel....When I want to go somewhere I hire spokes....


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-18-2009).]

Considering my position, and the fact I signed an NDA, I tend to be a bit guarded with putting information on a public forum, as I'm sure you will understand.

In other words, my innocent "guess" or "wish" could be actually something in the works, and there would "problems" if it was seen on a public site.

As far as the "incremental" changes with Yamaha...they have been doing this sort of thing for years...every so often a big change, and then "enhancements" on the basic platform...Roland used to do it as well, but not so much lately.

I feel Yamaha believe they are on the right path, and who am I to argue?

Mr.Small Spoke, ESQ....remember?

Also, my reasons for buying gear would be a bit different than a home user, and even a pro user...plus I pay less for my stuff.

I also still have some "connections" with Roland, as I used to work for them quite some time ago, and I have sent a request for the "chord sequencer" to several people, good friends, actually, I still stay in touch with....it certainly can't hurt.

Ian

Blessed is he who talks in circles, for he shall become a big wheel....

Amen.

Sometimes one is a "spoke" for another's benefit, sometimes one hires "spokes" for their own, the wisdom comes with knowing the difference.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-18-2009).]

Every little helps.

I'm putting together a little jazz act for fun, and it's frustrating to HAVE to use SMF's so I can blow my trombone, when on the G1000, all I had to do was use the Chord Sequencer and stay in style Mode...

What's that about the squeaky wheel getting the grease, anyway?

Didn't realize about the NDA, that explains a lot... mind you, you MIGHT bring it up more often than the basic 'everything's all right, Jack' that you often use

Me, I'd like to see a 76 on the S900's successor (as an option!). That NP30 action ought to work within Yamaha's budget... Oh, and better MIDI implementation. They would sell a LOT more to people trying to integrate them with other arrangers and workstations if that was possible.

Well my friend, generally when everything is "alright", I tend to focus more on what I have, than what I don't have, or wish I had...I tend to live in the "now" a lot...doesn't work for everybody, but it's what I need to keep a balance in my life.

I imagine NP-30 keybed would be okay on an S900, although I'm not sure if I'd like having a graded touch when I'm mainly using the instrument for accompaniment and RH melody...it would be okay for piano stuff.

I suppose one could get used to it.

One would also wonder if it would be easier to make a DGX instrument with the S900 type accompaniment...it would seem to make sense for those instruments to advance to four variations per style from the two they have now.

They come in several flavors already...88 weighted GH, and 88 and 76 unweighted GH, and the 76'er is pretty portable.

Possibly it would be far more advantageous economically, to see technology that's already paid for itself in the S900 , filter down (or across) to other products.

Of course, this is all completely hypothetical, and just my active imagination bouncing out of the "now" for a few moments.

Ian