I have noticed for many years, the need to use different tools as crutches...when making music..Some crutches can be over com-ed, others can not..

I see as an example here...Cass stated that he relies on his playing as a back up for his vocals, and suffers in his playing skills to "play" his best...Hopefully I didn't misunderstand you Cass..

If this is true, I know of many, that are the same...There are "strong" singers, that need the vocals as a crutch for their playing skills...

There are others that rely on their playing skills to make the best of their vocals..

There are many that rely on the written music to play..this can also be a crutch..

I think the "arranger" keyboard has become a crutch for so many...causing them to lose skills that they may have had before...and others do need the arranger to aid them because of lacking skills..

All of these scenarios are fine, but maybe we need to look at our own positions, and see if the "crutches " are holding us back , or causing us to deteriorate as players..

If you want to test yourself..turn off the arranger stuff, and turn off the mic....and play...see if you can hold your own..

Piece of cake...and again, I takes dis toime ta tank me mudder for dem lessen on da pie-anna.

The 'cardeen lessens helped too.

I need and will use any crutches that I can get a hold of ... life's too short.
Ciao,
Jerry

Plus one..."Skills" are for pit musicians and studio players.


Sequencers, loops, transpose buttons.....all of it negates a skill set and yet allows more people to express themselves musically and in the end, THAT'S the most important thing......The only bad "crutch" is the one you cannot use to get somewhere you want to go.......

My instrument is Arranger, not Piano. It isn't a crutch, it's a tool. It's my band, in which I control all the parts. Don't need to turn anything off and don't want to, and don't feel any need to justify playing Arranger.
It's what I do. Does this make sense?
If I don't remember the words to a song, I look at them. I get requests for songs I have done 10 years ago and need to look at the chords and lyrics sometimes. They are not crutches, but tools.
My next step MAY be to get one of those laptop antenna things so I can connect to the internet from anywhere at any time. If I get a request that I want to try but don't know or have the words and/or chords, I can Google it, download it, play it and pocket the LARGE TIP. If I can't play it, I could even download an MP3 and play it on break for them. Whatever tools are necessary!
I only started singing because I didn't want to pay a singer, but I'm slowly getting tolerable at it. Just another tool.
DonM

Don, you may be interested to know it IS worth getting a tool (whatever that may be) to do what you described above.

I used an App on my iPhone called MIDOMI - Kind of like the Shazam app you see in the ads (the one where they hold the iPhone up to the speaker and it tells you what song it is) except Midomi is a lot more flexible. You can type in the name of the song, hold it up to the speaker, or just HUM the melody (yeah, it actually works) and the app will tell you the song, alternate versions of the song, Discography of the Band(s) who did the song, an option to buy the song, or just to stream it from Youtube.

So, Midomi REALLY helps me.
Before that app (and the iPhone) I would never be able to play almost ANY song for somebody. Just last week an elderly guy came up to me at a gig and asked me for a song I'd never heard of, but meant a lot to him. I got him to sing the song into the iPhone, and sure enough, it came up with it! We couldn't play it for him live, but I just streamed the song from youtube, plugged the phone into our PA system, and the guy got up with his wife of 40 years and danced around the room with a big ol' smile on his face! (It even sounded pretty good!!)

That's priceless - it makes you the ULTIMATE DJ - there's (practically) nothing you can't get for someone, new OR old, live - at a gig!

Btw, all that streaming cost me nothing as I was leeching some Wi-fi from the Venue, because I used a great Wifi finding app that cost me just $2.

Life is good.......

I've stated a while back that I am glad I got rid of my arrangers (at least temporarily anyway) and bought a true workstation because it made me focus on my playing skills more, instead of using the auto-accompaniment features of arrangers. I started playing arrangers from the get go and by switching to a workstation it has opened up new ways to concentrate solely on my playing skills and of using proper fingering methods plus more in depth music theory development and research.

OTOH, I would like to get another arranger fairly soon to use in conjunction with my Fantom G7. In a two tier situation that is.

All the best,
Mike

I think all forms of keyboards can be a crutch (if we let it get to that point). Those of us who also have workstations can get to the point of the synth becoming a crutch. I've said several times in the past that it wouldn't hurt to turn off the auto accomp as often as you can and just PLAY.

It's the same thing with workstations. You get so used to using the preset patterns and arps to simplify things and you run into the same issue.

I always suggest that a player every so often do a complete LINEAR recording with their keyboard. No quantize.., no looping, no copy/paste, no styles, NOTHING. Just pick a track and record. Pecking out an entire drum track will do wonders for your timing. Putting it all together track after track on a strick linear format IMO can be a very good practice tool.

Squeak

Good post Fran. Piano was always my instrument I always played solo. Once I bought my first arranger ( a clavinova cvp 107) I about dropped playing piano solo. That was a bit of a mistake, since then my chops have really diminished. It gets frustrating playing a piece that I once had a pretty good command of with all the dynamics that should go along with a good piano solo. I play a number of piano solo cocktail hours, when playing a NH gig there's usually a pretty decent grand piano in the rooms I play. I usually wind up playing a 10 minute segment of solos. I have recently cracked open the Hanon series to get some of the left hand strength back, can't let those skills disappear completely. Not only that I find there's no arranger that allows me to play as expressively as I can with acoustic piano.

Bottom line no matter what it's the arranger that brings lots of entertainment to the table. It's a tool not a crutch. Now my vocals are a different story I need all the crutches available.

Don M's post is SPOT ON!

I'm with DonM. He very well articulated my feelings about my approach to gigging. I could, and probably should, work on my skills, but my first aim is to pay my bills - I love music and entertaining and these tools allow me to make a living with what I want to do. The quality of the sound and the features of these arranger-boards-modules, along with a decent sound system allows me to compete with the swarming DJ's and Karaoke what-ever-you call-'ums.
Ciao,
Jerry

The intended question, and the existing problem...Do the tools we rely on become crutches?

And from what I see here...they do..

A crutch, is something that we come to rely on..to a point ..we can't do without...at least in our minds...And it does cause us to lose some skills that should be addressed..

I am not or was I knocking our tools..I use them all my self...but we should be aware that they could become too dependent..

As an example ..I always used fake book, and sheet music on my gigs...I didn't need them as much as they were there for confidence....that is a crutch..

About 20 years ago, I forgot all my music/fakebooks, on a gig with my young lady singer..Forced to "just do it"...we had no problems...relaxed and I think the freedom of "no" crutch made the performance better...That was 1990, and I still leave the books home...

I use/need lyrics for any vocals I do...this too I am sure has been a crutch for me.....but unlike reading charts, I cannot remember more than a dozen lyrics to songs I do.....So it will remain a crutch for me..

I more often than not prefer to play left hand bass..and cancel the arranger parts..It doesn't mean I do not like or use the "arranger"..because I do...but I believe, if we do not turn off the auto stuff once in a while...we will lose a skill or two..

I also know that the transpose button is a super feature..I use it too...but if we use it to change the tunes key to our comfort key...guess what, you will soon find you lost or do not have the playing skill you should have to play in all keys...even Db and B...

Great post Fran but sadly DJ's/Karaoke artists/One finger players/Mp3's/Smf's/Loop based creations/backing tracks/& playing in C via transpose/laptops out-rank the difficulty in today's world of learning how to play for real without the "crutches" & its ALL GOOD if it SOUNDS GOOD!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-22-2009).]

That's fine Donny, but there are plenty of us, that should heed Fran's reminder, if nothing more than memorizing music, looking ahead at the lyrics, so as to make I contact, and wean yourself from over embellished acc to allow your left hand to come through.

Bernie reality is reality out there in the gigging world as a full time pro...to survive you need to pull out all the stops & use all the tools and as to what is needed to survive & make a living.....if someone is a weekend warrior only that's a different story. The technology is out there embrace it and prosper....people hand you a check with a smile after a gig is the bottom line.

have a great holiday weekend

I agree with the notion that we can become crutch dependent. Whether its equipment, effects, sheet music, whatever...Almost anything can be defined as a crutch. Mostly, I think its a matter of degree. Too much of almost anything can take away from a performance. If it doesn't get in the way, then its probably not an issue.

I use a Music Pad Pro...I do not memorize anything. Not once did anyone come up and say, "(Damn Bill, you're pretty good but if just got rid of the MPP, then you'd be really great.")

My main group of clients are Retirement Communities. I'm usually entertaining an older audience. My job isn't to give a concert but to stimulate the attendees. I've found a very effective way to really reach them is to provide some contrast within my program. Performing a few upbeat tunes with varying beats then dialing it down, dropping the auto accmp. and playing a nice old love song or a hymn is a great switch. Then coming out of that going into to something with a bigger sound is effective. Variety, even within the context of a single musical style, is almost always good for the performing musician.

On the other hand, the idea that you have to pull out all the stops to survive I think is hyperbole. Can you? Sure....Do you have to utilize everything that available? IMO, No, you do not.

There are members of this forum who can really interact with a smf and sound terrific. There are also plenty of guys who don't touch smf's (yours truly, to name one) and are none the worse for not using them.

I think as time passes, I will have to get more cozy with midi files. The audiences in RC's are getting younger and there's more & more of a demand for songs from the 70's and 80's. Given the construction of the pop music of that era, alot of tunes don't fit a traditional chordal structure. Tunes that use a lot of "lines" if you will just don't transfer well to an arranger as we know them today. That leaves us few choices.

Its going to be a challenge for us arranger based entertainers to keep churning out new stuff as the tastes in music follow the progressions of the 80's...

I think all performers should always be looking for ways to add creativity to their music. Some crutches tend to transport us right to our comfort zone, while others just don't matter...


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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 05-22-2009).]

My main keyboard was and is the organ. Keyboards, synths and arrangers are adjuncts of that skill set, but they are not organs. I've picked up the piano for myself and now enjoy playing it as much as an organ, but I can't do things on the piano that I can do on the organ.

When I said that my keyboard skills support my vocals, I meant that I am no longer just an instrumentalist and not even called upon to be a soloist. I am, most of the time, an accompanist - for myself, a congregation, a choir or another singer. Because of this, my keyboard style is not flashy or full of interesting (cute) fills or arpeggios. I am certainly not a jazz master, although I am good at improvisation.

I feel many of the 'players' here have a style that is more in tune with solo playing. i play just fine, just not fancy and that is why a made the "I'm out" statement that I think Fran was originally referring to. Have I been clear on this? I hope so... it sure got long.

When was the last time any of you got in a band and played much?

Here is something that I don't think the arrangers help much with.. learning how to interact with a REAL band, listening to what's REALLY going on, and not what you think is...

Stopping your arranger for a few songs and playing a solo piano piece doesn't really prepare you for this. And calling playing a bit of a RH melody against a held chord in your LH 'expressing yourself' is a bit of a misnomer. The person that wrote the style, the person that programmed that SMF or the karaoke track is the person 'expressing' themselves You are merely slightly decorating (for good or bad) their work...

Play out more, get in a band, at least for fun, relearn what 'expressing' yourself really means, when you have no ARTIFICIAL crutches anymore, when you play with something that actually listens to YOU (for good or bad!) and alters what it is doing depending on what YOU are playing, and also relearn to adjust to THEIR adjustments...

The only crutch many of us have is thinking that playing with a fake band is really 'playing with a band'. They couldn't be further from each other...

If the individual views their "tool" as a crutch in the negative sense it is....for them only and the way they view others.

Sequencing allowed ANYONE to put in audio form a creation in their heads regardless of whether or not they could actually recreate it live. I don't view that as a negative....I view it as allowing more people to express themselves. Much of todays music is based on loops and sequences no one could play in tempo live...Does that make it irrelevant? I don't think so. The market doesn't think so. Joe piano bar guy does.But he is forced to cover those songs created by people who probably could not hold a stick to him technically.

Like PhotoShop allows for turning a mediocre snapshot with possibilities into a work of art, computers have opened up musical expression for those with little training and just like Arrangers have allowed a keyboard player to play drums and trumpet at the same time!!.

Bill has it right. Again, we're looking at the difference between musicians and entertainers. And we're talking about primary focus and degrees of importance.

We need both entertainers and musicians in this world and most of us have a mix of both skills. A good entertainer assembles a group of tools and does what's necessary to put on a show. A musician (at least one who values skill and musical performance more than entertaining ability) focuses primarily on musical skills, practice, etc.

I'm closer to the "musician" end of the spectrum, not because I make a claim that that is the moral high ground, but because I'm a lousey entertainer.

That's why I have a love-hate relationship with the arranger. It's a tool, but if I were to rely completely one it, I'd be the "tool", at least in my mind.

To keep my head on straight, only about 1/3 of my jobs are on an arranger. The rest are with a trio (either organ and guitar or piano and guitar) or a single on either just piano or guitar.

This keep's my head on straight.

I'm not impressed with many entertainers who are mediocre musicians. That includes some regular contributors here.It's just not something I'm interested in.

But, everyone needs to choose where they are in the entertainer/musician area and work to be the best they can be going down the path they choose.

In my case it's no mp3's or sequences of any kind and playing as much without the aid of arrangers and certain other tools as I can.

That gives me a sense of accomplishment.


Russ

Several times a month...Its a completely different approach to playing. Instead of riding a rhythm, you must provide it. To lock in with the bass player/drummer in my quartet to give the singer/soloist a solid foundation to be featured over is my #1 job with regard to my piano playing in that context.

As different as it is, I really like because it keeps me sharp and listening. My brain is processing different signals with the band than it is when I'm using the arranger, because the stimuli is different.

I feel I would lose some of my listening skills/musicality if all I did was to work with an arranger. That's also why in the majority of my omb shows, I make it a point to turn off the accmp. and deliver a song or two in a traditional style of just a piano, maybe some strings in the back and my vocal.

Doing both, almost every week, is nice.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 05-22-2009).]

I have a feeling that Russ and Bill, myself, a few others... we are the exception here, not the rule

But I also tend to think that this is an ARRANGER forum, not a karaoke one. If all you do with your arranger is minimal input while you 'entertain', there already are other forums where your particular skill set is the focus.

An arranger is a keyboard. You PLAY the keyboard. Or it is some kind of glorified jukebox with keys stuck on for no good reason (makes you wonder why modules are getting harder and harder to find )...

If 'entertaining' is your focus, why spend all that much time here? There's GOT to be some good 'entertainer' forums, surely?

An arranger is a keyboard. A WS is a keyboard. A piano is a keyboard. We ARE keyboard players. Play one, you should be able to play them all. Or you aren't a 'keyboard player', IMO...

You are a 'backing track operator'...

You had me until this:

I don't know the man, but if Evgeny Kissin sat down at my T2 or a high end ws, would he really be able to play it beyond as an acoustical instrument? I'm guessing not, but I could be wrong. He plays as such a high level, I think acoustic is his main focus. Give him some time, look out...

For those of you not familiar with Kissin, he's a world renowned classical pianist. Here's a clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9BsyS3XSYw

Yeah, he's a kb player, no doubt...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

The thing is, with a high skill level, you have the tools and the mindset to adapt to whatever situation you are in. If he sat down and played as if it was a piano, no, it wouldn't work. If you sit at a piano and play it like an arranger, it doesn't work either. But if all you can do is struggle to operate the arranger in realtime, your chances of playing a piano part are about nil...

You can't have TOO much chops (unless you don't have the discipline to NOT use them all the time!). But you can sure have not enough!

Ah the "elitist" rears it's bitter head...It must really pain you that people who never opened a Hanon book or had a formal lesson in their life can make their living playing on arranger keyboards....People who cold not get a job playing piano in a mall can demand $200 for a few hours playing an Arranger keyboard.

Here's a clue...there is no difference between and entertainer and a keyboard player. By virtue of having an audience, EVERY player is an entertainer whether playing Clair de lune at Carnegie Hall or Just the Way you Are at Joe's Beach Bar.Since when are "musician" and "entertainer" mutually exclusive terms. Only to the elitist....

Arranger players ARE players...they cannot get the job without playing. No they don't have to have great chops, they don't have to be able to play Flight of the Bumble Bee. They don't even have to play only piano... All they have to do is play chords and some melody or sing the melody and another few hundred in the bank and some coin in the tip jar.....easy money..

Keyboard players for shows like Legends in Concert don't make as much as some Arranger players here.....$800 a week!!! for playing in a main room show in Las Vegas, Branson, Atlantic city.. and those guys are readers, some are Berkley Grads!!! An Arranger player invoicing $200 a night 6 nights a week makes far more for far less time invested. Who's the "entertainer" in that scenario?

Now if its personal accomplishment thats important, Thats an INDIVIDUAL matter. Some people's idea of personal accomplishment has nothing to do with being able to read a lead sheet or play for four hours on only an acoustic Piano. And especially not another's view of what should be considered accomplishment.

People get paid for what they DO today...not what they CAN DO were there is no market. Fortunately those who did not learn to play the keyboard under iron rule since the age of 2 can make a living given the technology available and public taste. That's a GOOD thing...

And the drummer is always sober and on time.....



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-22-2009).]

Well said, Kingfrog. I CAN play in bands, and used to all the time. I CAN play guitar, drums, trumpet, organ, but I NOW play Arranger. I like it and it pays pretty well.
Why, I've made hundreds of dollars in this business.
DonM

Careful, Don... don't even MENTION that you can actually PLAY anything, yet alone that diverse selection. Or, according to Kingfrog's rant, you are being elitist also for actually PLAYING...

Karaoke singers... what to do, what to do?

They come to forums where REAL musicians hang out, and put down anybody that can do something they can't... Sounds pretty bitter and frustrated, if you ask me...

Look, I don't go off to karaoke singer's forums and berate them for having good voices (I mean, how elitist - actually SINGING! When anyone KNOWS, you can put on a CD of a REAL singer without having any singing ability whatsoever and simply mime! ).

Why they got to come here and act all jealous...?

Weak.............very weak....

Thanks for playing though..

This is not meant to be an elitist comment, because I'm certainly not an elite musician, there's a good reason I've always maintained an 8 to 5 job, some years it was more like 7 to 5 PM and the at home sales reports that lasted into the sometimes late evenings or occasionally Saturday mornings.

Anyway I digress I get a chuckle out of the word "Keyboard Player" When I took formal lessons from pianist Salvatore Fransosi, he drilled into me we are "pianists" son, not "piano players." For what it's worth, pianist does sound better than piano player or guitar player vs. guitarist. Not that it really matters, in the big picture of who works playing music everyday and earning a living that way. Funny when things are drilled into us as youngsters, they stay with us, that's really my only point.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 05-22-2009).]

I for one totally agree with you. Savadore was correct......There are piano players and pianists......I am in the player category.

But BOTH are relevant entertainers....or had better be if they want to earn a living playing live and gain a following. Studio players need not be entertainers....

My wife is a Pianist as in she has earned her living since she was in her 20's playing keyboards for bands to major shows under contract where she had to read charts. She sight reads ,can and does play Piano only gigs. She will only gig with 88 weighted keys, No arrangers, She would rather play with a track created on the Tyros then take the Tyros.

My issue was the stated mutual exclusion between players and entertainers or "pianists" and entertainers.....She is just as much an entertainer as a pianist as I am as simply a self taught player who can only read "Nashville charts"..... As if those who mearly "entertain" are not worthy of posting in an A R R A N G E R FORUM and should find another place to chat!!! now THAT would be funny if it were not such an ignorant statement or idea.

few events are more boring than a pianist who is not entertaining....on some level


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-22-2009).]

Yeah, Stephen. Yeah, Diki. Yeah, everyone. These are great posts and I've truly enjoyed reading them. Yeah, Fran.

Yes, we use so many tools as musicians. I've even used wah-wah pedals and phasers. But, so what?

I am ME. I wear many hats, some good looking, some funny, some serious, some smelly and distateful... Each hat is worn for a particular situation.

Do I need crutches, I would say I hope not, but is that little hook at the end of each hymn verse a chrutch? hmm... Is my use of an LCD screen on my G70 for lyrics or score a crutch? hmm... Is my use of SMF instead of arranger styles a crutch? hmm... Is my use of an arranger instead of playing in a live band a crutch? hmm...

I am me and you are he and we are all together... I think.

Can I post here if I am a juggler? Or a lion tamer? Or a card trick guy? After all, these are all 'entertainers', too

Or is this a forum for people who PLAY the arranger?

Nice try, Froggy, but once again you demonstrate you don't know me at all (and never will, if I have anything to do with it!). I play by ear 99% of the time. I never had any formal pop or jazz training. Yes, I did do classical (t'bone was my major), but knew from the start I would never make a living playing it (nor wanted to). Yes, I read charts. Yes I read Nashville. They are basic needs for session players and people that back 'entertainers' (who don't have the skill to back themselves).

I don't put down those that can't read. I put down those that can't PLAY when all they seem able to do is denigrate those that CAN. But, all that aside... c'mon. Let's hear it. SHOW us just how irrelevant our skills are. Post some music. Wow us with your programming. I'm getting pretty tired of you acting the 'expert' on so many things, without a hint that you can actually back it up. Talk is cheap.

Juggling, card tricks and karaoke are subjects for a different forum...

I knew this was going south real soon happens every time the "SHOW ME" question comes up :eek;

This post went south the minute Kingfrog decided to educate us poor idiots about what the REAL truth is... there isn't any point knowing how to play. I mean, he can't, so how COULD it possibly be important?

There is only one thing that is important. It is whatever Kingfrog says it is. What we ever did to deserve the pearls of wisdom this genius bestows on us beats me. We should just count our blessings that he is here to show us how wrong we all are...

I'm selling my keyboards, and getting a karaoke rig, then I'm going to go on a karaoke forum, and start to tell everyone how wrong they all are... of course, I won't ever post any music. They will, of course, recognize my genius without it

. .. ...

I remember Froggy posted one of his original tunes here on SZ...a mighty fine tune it was, too.

He says he did all the background himself, although I believe it was not done with an arranger.

Ian

Those of you who play and play well certainly have my admiration. Unfortunately, I do not. My formulative years were spent working as a soda jerk or throwing a paper route instead of taking piano lessons. I was orphaned at an early age.

The arranger allows me as a songwriter to at least show my target audience (performers looking for cover songs) to understand how my song(s) sound when "performed" by an old geezer... LOL!

Like Kingfrog and Mason, I use every possible weapon the arranger brings to the table to "tweak" my songs in selecting the most effective "voices/instruments" for each song. (Many would disagree!)

Thank goodness I don't have to perform live. After 731 songs, I have trouble remembering the lyrics for even the most recent song... Lol!
http://www.ShowcaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice

One tune, done on WS's long before he ever came here. It was OK, the singing was the standout, but the track, IMO, wasn't.

Since then, of course, he's done nothing but lay down the Law according to Froggy. Without illustration. Mind you, no doubt I am being 'elitist'. I should accept anything anyone ever says on their word, shouldn't I? After all, come to think of it,, not only is it unnecessary to be able to play, it is unnecessary to LISTEN to music, either I should be able to believe anybody's self proclaimed expertize on the strength of their winning personality

If I want tips about singing, entertaining, sounding like Neil Diamond, trust me, Frog is the FIRST person I would want to hear from. I've heard that, and seen his resume. Impressive. What I haven't heard yet is any evidence that his opinions about making music on an arranger have an equal foundation in fact. He is the first to dismiss other's abilities. I'd simply like to hear his. It would be tough for me to be as dismissive... but I doubt I will get the opportunity

. .. ...

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[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-29-2009).]