I guess first things first... sorry, Alfa, but my G70 is seldom home at the moment (my gig schedule has it remain in the band van most of the time)....

The definition of 'tinkle'... well, whatever makes it sound the best. Your choice, there

And, to all the so-called 'happy' MS owners.... where's your 'happy' music? Happy Yamaha users post theirs, happy Roland users post their, but all we ever get from 'happy' MS users is them TELLING us they are happy. Me, if I was happy, I'd post a bunch of stuff.

A long time ago, when I first got my G70, there was a lot of posts saying that the G70 did not sound very good OOTB (out of the box). So I sat down, called up a factory style, hit the One Touch buttons, and ripped this off in a cople of minutes, No editing, no nothing. http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=150.0
BTW, it is a repost of something from the old G70 forum, I didn't do it in '07!

The OOTB comments pretty much dried up after that... If you want to refute something about someone's comment on YOUR keyboard, THAT'S the way to do it. You sure can't WRITE your way out of a general impression!

Damn...! I just had a thought. Magica, I'm sending you the ROM style that that bossa demo was made from. If you download that song, that should be enough for you to work on, shouldn't it?

Sometimes I think I'm so dumb... the rest of the time, I KNOW it!

PS... Done! Magica, you have mail.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-04-2009).]

Hi AFG,

I was not really going to get into this, but as I note you asked again in a later post I will.

Firstly to To The Genesys, your comment about it says more about the user is total twaddle.

I have been using VST's on a PC for years as well as programming (in a limited way) sounds. I really know my way around most of the keyboard operating systems. ALL of them.

The issues with the Media Station were NOT of a programming nature, or of a "how to use" nature. I had that pretty much sorted out (with some help from Magica) within about 2 weeks. LOL, some owners had it for more than 2 years and STILL did not figure out as much as I did in that first few weeks.

Many of the questions asked of Dom were of a rhetorical nature, meaning I had basically figured out how something should go, I was more asking him for clarification JUST in case anything I did was going to stuff up the OS.

Now to AFG,

The issues with the MS were several. First and foremost were two glaring deficiencies that were told to me to work BEFORE I bought it.

These were the ability to use an external screen for programming (the screen on the MS is pathetically small for any REAL programming) and the Performance function.

This is the one that saves a "snapshot" of all the settings including the resource (style, mp3, smf) to a slot for later instant recall. Except every time you used it it crashed the whole keyboard.

And I KNOW Dom says its to be fixed with the CDG function, but who the hell wants CDG function (except his DJ market in Europe). Like the KAOSS pad, cute idea and a nice toy, and it looks good on the resume, but not an everyday tool really.

All I wanted was a vital live play tool fixed.

Apparently both the external display and the Performance tools both worked on an earlier OS (2.8 I think). So, I thought to myself , simple, I will just revert back to that OS.

BUT that OS ONLY works with the previous motherboard.

The motherboard was changed to allow for faster processors. Good idea in theory!!But at the cost of losing those two vital functions, in my view, was not worth it.

But as with other changes, they seem to be done without any thought for users, without any real testing BEFORE making the change and certainly without any real documentation about the change other than its going to happen.

The point is is was SUPPOSED to work when I got the keyboard, not that it was coming "one day". The Performance function is a vital live play tool.

There is a distinct lack of ANY serious documentation, and as this is a serious keyboard from a set-up and NOT OOTB point of view, this lack of proper manual was glaring.

I think the Oasys manual is huge by comparison. And using it one could pretty much get around learning the Oasys from it.
I use the Oasys example, as it is also a fully software based keyboard. But I also suspect the Open Labs manuals are pretty thorough as well.

Oh and the MP3 player, ONLY plays bog standard MP3's. If you have MP3's with tags, it refuses to play them. Just jams up the player, although this glitch thankfully does not jam the keyboard.

So the only way is to load a 3rd party program to play these tagged MP3's, BUT this cannot be recalled using a Performance (if that ever gets fixed).

I actually sent a couple of MP3 examples to Dom so he could sort it, but I never got any response.

On the subject of the external screen, (again another thing I was told worked BEFORE I bought it), I now see it is going to cost owners to buy an update to now have an external screen operation, for something that was SUPPOSED to be already on it!!

This one I can understand as Dom did spend a LOT of money to have an external Linux programmer fix. But out of principle I was not prepared to pay it.

There are several buttons marked on the panel that do not work at all. Mainly to do with arranger functions that I consider basic.

These are manual bass, and break. Oh and there is NO way to have slash chords (or "On Bass" or whatever terminology you want to use) on the MS in any way. APART from programming your own bass lines in a style, and even then its not very musical.

Regardless of Doms' fix, the JACK still refuses to load properly on occasion which of course means a re-boot. Again this is not Doms fault but a fault with the Linux OS and the JACK setup. BUT it still is an issue.

There are still issues with the correct saving and re-display of MIDI patch changes in creating/editing MIDI files.

The LS works, just okay in my view. You cannot save any editing changes to any of the Yamaha styles, so EVERY TIME you want to recall a Yamaha style you have to go through the edit process again. And this is ONLY volume data I am talking about, not micro editing of the style itself.

So in reality unless you are happy with the OLD yamaha styles (with all their preset levels), and the even OLDER XG patches (these are really even worse than standard GM) then the LS with Yamaha XG is pretty useless.

Even Dom admits the native MS styles are absolutely awful. And they are...REALLY!! I don't know who the "gun" style programmers were, but they were a waste of money. Most fo the styles sound like hashed up conversions by EMC!!!

Interesting to note elsewhere that another MS user who was not too long ago spruiking the ease and great sound of the MS/Yamaha styles, the Live Styler operation and the XG sounds, has now bought an E80 to go with the G70.

Actions are louder than words, truly!!

The screen has NO contrast controls and is really quite difficult to see, even in low-light conditions, unless you are almost directly above it. You CAN read it but it is with some degree of difficulty.

As all the volume sliders operate on the MS within the digital world, you get artefacts when sliding the sliders up or down. Even with the output levels set low. (These are sort of like digital limiters on all of the digital audio outs).

There is no quick and easy way to balance sound between the keyboard and a playing resource. If you go to the screen to adjust the keyboard volume, you lose the immediate control of the volume/EQ contols for the playing resource.

The expression pedal assignments do not always operate correctly.

Its almost impossible to program a midi pedal(FCB 1010, the Yamaha ones for example) using MIDI as the controls all have to be re-mapped via the TCP's that are in wide use on the MS.

SO.....with all of this you must be thinking "well what is it good for??"

It is BRILLIANT at running VST's. With the COMBI tool, the Media Station blitzes everything else on this.

BUT I needed more than just a VST player.

That's probably more than enough space, and enough info I think AFG...If you have anything more specific, just ask.

Oh and I did sell it, and I now have a PA2xPro again.

Dennis

The fact that ONLY Dennis is willing to point out some of these glaring issues (no Bass inversions in style mode? How eighties! ) says a lot more about the basic evasiveness of most of our MS using members than anything about the MS. The glaring difference between their unfailing praise for this, and the actual experiences of someone who, finally, seemed more interested in the MS as a tool for making music than a tool for lording it over less technologically 'bleeding edge' keyboard users, is, IMO, the final nail in the coffin of these wannabes who can't ever seem to back up their assertion that it works for THEM.

Well, apparently, it DOES work well enough for them They switch it on, the pretty lights blink, they load up a few VSTi's, and that seems sufficient. Wow! The future...! Can't wait for those flying cars. That, of course, won't actually take you anywhere, simply hover for a minute or two before crashing!

This is only converted part of STYLE from G70 to MS. I did not something special only some sounds changing. In next days I will do more with style.

I hope that you will enjoy in that what I done.
http://plac.siol.net/index.php?m=c9ae77e8&a=dc18f91e&share=LNK64234a78d0b1160b8

Enjoy what ever you play.

MAGICA ALFA

[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 08-04-2009).]

I liked that!
Can you tell me how exactly you put that from keyboard to mp3 like that? My wav recordings turned to MP3's are always much lower in volume than that.

To be honest, though, I'd rather hear what the style came out as WITHOUT the changing sounds around. That is, if you are going for at least some kind of comparison... Guitar went VERY strange, IMO, and I'm not sure if it was the pretty aggressive mastering compression, but there were some weird volume swells that might be a result of pumping and breathing that were a bit disconcerting. Not bad, but not great...

I'd still like to hear basically how the style came out without much RH stuff added. I'd also like to hear more changes, rather than the long section where the one chord played. How the style engine handles changes, is JUST as important as how well just the basic sounds translate, IMO... Oh, and what happened to the ride cymbal?

But thank you, Zmago, for taking the time to do this... I hope you can find a use for the style, too..! I really appreciate someone finally willing to step up to the plate, and illustrate their opinion with real music. For good or bad, this is the only way we can communicate the nuances of sound quality, style quality, etc., without leaving it to conjecture and opinion only...

A sound, a song, a style... is worth a thousand words.

woww Dennis, good post...are you sure that you don't have forget some more features? IF I remember well you asked me also to integrate on the OS the Melodyne, Cubase, NI Komplete...all for Free cost of course...

Anyway, I will try to reply your post...


mmm..I agree with Genesys...are you sure Dennis that you are able to USE this all standard PC features? IF you can use the Logic 5 and Reaper for example, the you can use it on MS too...IF you can not use on MS, mean that you can not use on PC windows too.


The MS 800x600 display is pathetically small? Ouch...and then the al others Keyb that have ONLY 320x240 or LESS what they are?? On the PAX2/Audya do you have maybe 1280x1024 resolution for editing the styles/midifiles??
On MS really soon will be available the multiple display outs ( NOT mirrow, like the OL at max 1024x768) but the all resolution of the displays connected at the TWO independent VGA/DVI.
This features we had before on OS 2.8 but on Ubuntu was NOT included, because of the new PCIexpress GPU bus issue.


Yes this I know, not working well from OS 2.8, because we have added a lot of new ASIO host features, on COMBI too and need to update the whole system for reconize the Wine ASIO code. I told a lot of time, this will be fixed after the multiple display and CDG are integrated.


The CDG feature is just implemented on some keyboards and the CDG is MORE request as the arranger engine, new generation people can NOT play the arranger, they will only Playback! This is the reason that also Roland Europe will NOT develope more new TOP arranger, the market is valued less at 1%, musician want ONLY workstation, Synths and simple playback system ( you can also see on roland products line..) Anyway, CDG will be integrated on MS too.


WRONG! Do you think that I have so much FUN to continue updating the mainboards and the Linux OS kernel??
Do you know what mean this words?:
OASYS= DISCONTINUED
G70=DISCONTINUED
E-80=DISCONTINUED
Korg I30=DISCONTINUED
Neko GEN1, GEN2, GEN3, GEN4= DISCONTINUED
and now on MS:
Mainboard Chaintech= DISCONTINUED ( bankrupt)
Asrock NF3= DISCONTINUED ( the last mainboard that support the multiple display)

So..do you prefer that the MS will be DISCONTINUED (like the OASYS) or continue survive this project?
We change and update the Mainboard/OS and we continue


agree...depend also wich features you are looking for...take a example on Audya or just read the korgforums how much bugs they have too and are fixed after months ( IF they fix)


Here I agree, manual have to big update for the all new features.
Do NOT compare with the OpenLabs manual, they only copy/paste features on 3th paty software...Just take the example how to burn the CD with NERO, or install one AntiVirus...is a OL feature?


Of course, IF is not integrated the CDG feature how can the MS play this media??
I already told that will be integrated after the multiple displays.
For now, is really so bad to use a 3th paty software for running the CDG? I know.. you will all merged on MS and not pay nothing..understand...


This is a good point..
ALL the MS OS developed from our lionstracs developer is totally FREE and will be forever FREE.
Elastique from Zplane is commercial, we have to pay the license.
Qranger is developed from 3th paty developer, we have to pay for the new features and NOT always they will ADD special features, because are NOT interested.

Xorg is the same, we have to pay this work for get this special display OS feature.

Try to Update your software, NI, Logic, Steinberg, Wersi and much others and let me know IF they give you some for FREE!
What you mean, because the MS can running windows application we MUST inclde the all commercial software application and library??
Example: why give a Neko that cost 3400 USD and the XXL cost 6900USD? just for one more usb controller? the difference is because the BUY the software and install on the keyboard.

HOW MUCH you have payed the DEMO MS X-76? ONLY 1000 Euro, BUT you want have inside all the software possible for FREE! Buy it and then you will see that you need more than 10.000 USD, ONLY for the software.
PAY me 8000 euro of the MS ( like Oasys) then I wil install for you the al software for the 5000 euro Value too.


The MS keys are working all, are just renamed on the PRO pannel with different features.
Bass line inversion and some other features are NOT possible, because we use the Timeline features and NOT RAM patterns like the others brands.


right, this is not a MS OS bugs BUT from the kernel.
NOTE: we can full fix this kernel serial issue, BUT then for sure will NOT work on MS that have different mainboards.When the kernel is compiled in one mainboard chipset type, is NOT full warraty that will work to others mainboards too, we have to choose a compromise OR all must be BUY the Asrock K10N78-1396!

continue....

Diki thanks for post.

As I try to explain, I was only reconverting style. It is my base set-up that I use on MS but in next days I will try to do more with style.

My GM is different than usual but I also put some new sounds on style.

I know that guitars are not good. Because I hear at other styles different strumming of guitar and also sound is different.

I will use in next compare more true sounds and not synthetic because this is advantage that I see on MS IMO.

I hope yo will get global overview on new concept of maybe future keyboards with that I do not MS but i want to show you concept that you are dreaming from PC on and now is on hand and connected with all this lights (buttons).

I thing that in some years will be made only this type of keyboards. Now they are similar but far away from this concept.

I also understand Dennis. Linux it different than Windows and in Windows are a lot of users in Linux not so much but it is good alternative.


Best regards.

Magica Alfa

If you can stil not use the qranger for editing your midifiles is not my fault.
You can still use: rosengarden, MUSE, ardour, Reaper, Energy XT, Logic 5 PC, LMMS...
maybe the problem is that you are not able to use this tools...



hey....what have to do the Commercial Livestyler editing with the MS???
Is NOT my fault if Norbert NOT include the editor, JUST BUY it and you can full edit the yamaha styles too.
remeber that LS is ONLY a module that the MS contol the realtime features on TCP network.
I really NOT care if the LS is able for editing or not, is NOT our problems.



resolved also this MS audya styles too.
After the release the multiple display, my old friend Pieradis Rossini will start to develope amazing native audio styles for the MS and sell online on his webstore.

Pieradis is one of the more famous House producer, from mediarecords, read here who is Pier or just google it: http://www.xsongx.com/pieradis/
49ers, capella....
Pier will also record Video demos HOW to use a Audio/midi sequencer and record Audio styles...not just a simple bossanova out the box...


The MS display is a LVDS TFT display, NOT exist the contrast, like the all PC desktop display. All the others have only a LCD STN, totally a different display, you can not running mpeg video or website....



the MS have the Digital Volume control, that work from range: -90dB to +35dB @ 0.5 dB step.
the MS main volume slider work on range from 0 to 127 and when you have to jump dB step more than 1db, you can get this click audio.
Just go in setup, Volume control and reduce the master ot to 20-30%, then the click are LEFT, simple. We need +35Db range for drive the Mayersound UP-X system.


Normally...the MS is multi task pannel and will totally remapped when a new engine is running. If you open 10 ASIO Host, sampler, players, arranger...then how many keys/slider we need? 10.000??


This is another features request and must be developed by code. Let me see if you can use the FCB 1010 on your PAX, T3, G7...if there work, then I add this feature in some days.


good deal! from 1000 Euro MS to 3000 euroo PAX2pro.
You have always cry that dont have money and for that I gave you the demo MS for only 1000 euro...
Now is the probe that if you need some/update, you have to PAY and who will the multiple display on MS have to pay the ridicolus 120 euro too, OR they can just enjoy the all new features without the external display...simple.

I really like to see now on PAX2pro with 320x240 display what are you able to editing..midifiles, styles...ouch...


anyway..enjoy what you play..