Actually the opposite is true. Just follow all the Audya discussions and you hear the cry for detail editing of styles.
And the lack of detail editing is a deal breaker and that should cause the price of the Audya to be less.

From an actual user of an MS.

If I was going to buy an MS, I would more listen to you than to others who bad talk the MS. Because the ones who have very little positive things to say about the MS do not even own one and have never played one in person.

As a Media Station owner who DOES use it live, not just as a hobby keyboard in a studio, I can honestly say what Fran says is sorta kinda true.

You can do those things he said, BUT everytime you re-load that style you have to do the same tweaks everytime.

They cannot be saved, so not really for live use. At home where you can have 5 minutes between songs to set up the LS "just right" to set up the vol sliders "just right" it is okay.

Let me stress ...THIS IS NOT THE FAULT OF DOM OR THE MEDIA STATION... this is as Dom says an issue with Live Styler itself and as such needs to be taken up with Norbert.

Fran seems to think people are laying the blame at Doms door (which they are not), so thinks he needs to defend Dom instead of laying it out as it is, rather than glossing it.

You see I will praise the Media Station where it deserves it , and as readers will know I have done this many times. But I will not skip over any shortcomings I see.

Fran if everything is so good and great, WHY do you not use the MS live as I do and as other owners do? You have expressed a strong lack of confidence in using the MS live, why not admit it?

The Media Station I will say time and time again is a great instrument, its VST handling and audio handling via the dual player and the Qranger/Qtractor is superb.

Using Giga instruments is great. Being able to create your own GM soundbank of ANY giga instrument is great. Be able to combine multi VST's in one patch (combi), great.

Having a superb keybed, just "made" for piano samples, great.

Having three way eq on audio output in REAL TIME, great.

Having a great audio elastique engine for pitch shifting audio, great...

Being able to create superb AUDIO based styles is great.

And I could go on an on......

The ONE thing that is average is the midi style department. Thats it.

The sound boot issue has been fixed, Dom has indicated the other one issue (perf) is to be fixed in the near future. Including external display support which will allow all editing to be done using a 19" (or whatever size you like), monitor.

Once this final 3.3 OS is here, I have got to say the Media Station will have "arrived".

Dennis

PS: @ Fran...Fran when someone makes an apology it is courteous to at least acknowledge it. That you didn't says a lot.

That's a pretty good summary, Dennis. Great VSTi WS, lousy arranger.

I am sorry, but those there calling me a 'basher' simply are being hyperbolic, or haven't really READ what they half remember from my prior posts. I have ALWAYS said the MS is a revolutionary keyboard. I have always praised it's VSTi capabilities. I have always acknowledged that the MS (or at least, its' concept) is the 'future' of arrangers (and keyboards in general). I have said many, many times that, were the MS to be a great ARRANGER as we currently know them, and added it's VSTi capabilities, I would have had one LONG ago.

But I already have a VSTi rig at my studio for recordings, have an arranger that does most meat and potatoes sounds more than well enough for live use, and operates as an ARRANGER infinitely better than the MS. The only reason I've been so vocal about the MS is in the apparently vain hope that one day, maybe next year in Jerusalem, whenever, Dom might start to realize what arranger players (in the vast majority) actually NEED (not just want) in an arranger that we take out and gig live on...

BTW, I don't want to hear another word attacking me for keeping focused on operational aspects of the MS, when actual OWNERS have now public issues. I am NOT making this stuff up. Don't need to. Never have. Never would. Dennis has finally brought to the light of day several issues that on a Yamaha or Roland, would be cause for a recall or outright rebellion by its' users. Fran admits he CAN'T use his MS live. What more do you guys want? Blood?

The MS is a four year 'work in progress' that STILL cannot compete with the 'closed' arrangers that Dom so prominently used to bash... Forgive me for being skeptical about how long this is going to take before you can FINALLY take it to the gig with as much confidence as a PSR...

Imagine this, if you will. Take your current arranger, and cover up the ROM styles section. Empty out ALL your favorite user styles. Go and get a bunch of styles for another arranger. Use conversion software so that will sort of play on your arranger. Now edit them ALL so they sound as good as your (now unavailable) ROM styles if you can. Now go and gig (but you can't edit any of the Parts at the gig, even mute them).

Doesn't sound like much FUN, does it?

Actually in a way Diki, I am not the one to ask about styles, as I only use them for about 25% of what I do.

BUT I am about to embark upon audio style creation from real player audio loops, guitars, basses, drums etc etc, so hopefully in the near future I can post some examples of where I think the arranger part of the MS does truly shine....

Midi styles are dead as far as I am concerned. Audio is the way to go and the Media Station is the ONLY keyboard I know of that can do this.

BTW I DIDN'T say Fran wouldn't use it live, just that he wasn't confident about it.....

Dennis

At least with the MS years from now it will still be up to date & you dont have to buy other KB's as it's a constantly changing platform which is a great idea in itself IMO...as technology changes so will your unit.

True enough... it wasn't ready for prime time when it came out what, four years ago, it isn't ready now, and with Dom's shift in emphasis over to it's WS strengths, maybe it won't be ready in another four years too... So, in a way, it has ALWAYS been up-to-date

There isn't ONE person using this thing as primarily an arranger on this forum, despite a few actually owning them. The day it finally DOES manage to be ready for prime time, that will be the day it deserves our attention as ARRANGER players. Until then, it primarily serves as a cautionary tale for those who's enthusiasm for new technology exceeds their ability to discern whether it will do the job they WANT it to...

BTW, can anyone link me to any user music using the new Qranger audio features that you would consider 'jaw-dropping'? I'm still trying to find out if anyone (including the factory players) has managed to coax something useful out of this, yet...

Sorry Dennis, but for arranger use (in other words, styles that are usable for a multitude of songs, not just the one specific one) I see a lot of problems with using audio instead of MIDI... for starters, how do you deal with the issue of 'wrap-around'? All MIDI arranger parts can be pitch limited (just like a real instrument is) into a preset range. How do you get an audio loop to do that? How do you get a sampled bassline to deal with slash chords? And where exactly do you find a good selection of playing loops that cover all possible chord types and inversions?

You see, at the same time that GIGA sized MIDI instruments get pretty close to indistinguishable from real ones, and GB sized drum kit libraries (with MIDI files of real drummers triggering them) become very hard to tell they are not loops (before anyone starts arguing these points again, can I suggest you actually GO to some of these sites and listen to the demos), and Guitar Modes that get closer and closer to the real thing, arranger manufacturers start moving away from them, and embrace a technology that offers NO customizability or flexibility, and reduce us once again to preset ROMpler arrangers like we had fifteen, twenty years ago...

Sure, importing a drum loop library is pretty easy, if one can find one that a) provides enough variations and fills to compete with a MIDI arranger (doable, to a certain degree) and b) has a selection of playing conducive to an Intro or Ending (MUCH harder), but where do you find matching bass grooves, string lines, horn lines, not to mention guitar parts, in the myriad of chord types you might need. Sure, if you KNOW in advance (a songstyle, e.g.) what chords you need, you MIGHT be good to go. But a style needs the ability to play any chord if it is to be anything more than a jumped up song specific SMF...

Look at the hoops that Ketron have had to jump thorough, to make their guitar loop library useful. Basically, they HAD to use MIDI (at least in a half-assed way) to cover the holes, and failed miserably (IMO) to integrate the two well. Now, extrapolate that to basslines, piano parts, whatever you DO want to do with audio, your task gets pretty tough...

And, if you are using an audio loop for everything, where do you find libraries of these in all needed chords, modes and transpositions. Remember, you transpose a loop, you've transposed EVERYTHING within that loop. MIDI allows the guitar chord to transpose differently to the bassline, and have the horn line transpose differently to THAT... Far more musical, IMO.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of your Qranger stuff in action, but feel a little skeptical for it's general usefulness, not to mention the time it must be taking...

Dennis, fortunately for me..I am using the original Tyros2 styles with the YXG50 VST..the style balance is good and I have no need to tweak them..so no need to re-save them...Possibly the other Yamaha group styles may not fair as well..Have you tried the Yamaha Tyros styles I sent you?

As for not using the MS "live"...I prefer my G70, because it offers me more for my solo work..Mostly because all my sequences are "Make up" ready and transpose via system exclusive...and the G70 harmonizer is a must in my solo work too..

With the trio, I could use the MS...now..We use primarily MP3/wave tracks, that I recorded with my Roland boards..
We also use a handful of sequences , that I will also record as MP3's ..soon...

Arranger..I have no need for with the band..and the worst scenario..would be a special request for a guest singer that I need to back up...and I can always scratch that...I do what I want..

If you sent some I don't think I ever got them..In any case I have used a Tyros and a Tyros II and I did not like the style balances on either of them either.

I suppose, again, its down to personal choices. I really do not like a lot of the mixes preset by the Yamaha factory on factory styles, same goes for Korg and Ketron too, so tweaking a style even just to mute a track is vital to me.

Good to see you are to adopt the MP3 method. I did so ages ago because I got tired of having to re-set all my midis whenever I got a new keyboard. You see I NEVER use Gm. Soudns are way too boring as are GS and XG.

So I recorded my midis using the Motif ES and XS racks.

I am now moving on to recording new mp3 tracks using my new VST guitars, basses and drums, so its the same but the VST's sound even better than the motif, and thats saying something.

Dennis

Thing is, Dennis, what's the POINT of changing to a new keyboard, if all your backing tracks remain the same? If you think 'Drum part, Bass part, Guitar part, pad part, string line, horn line, etc.' and then you play one part, maybe two in realtime, you have changed at most 20-30% of your show... And have missed out on whatever better and newer the new keyboard could add to the backing parts (one presumes its' drums and basses etc. are better than your legacy gear)...

Sure, it's a boatload of work to do every time, but every time you do it, ALL your show gets better, not just your RH sounds...