But the question still remains unanswered...... Can the Audio playback on the MS Qranger play complex chords from ONE PIECE OF AUDIO simply through stretching or does the user have to use 36 separate streams of audio in the correct chord type like a guitar playing Maj 6th, Maj 7th, Maj 7th -5, Maj 7th
#11, add9, Maj 7th 9, 6 9, -5, Aug, Aug 7th, Aug Maj 7th, Min, Min 6th, Min 7th, Min add9, Min 7th 9th, Min 7th 11th, Min Maj 7th -5, Min Maj
7th, Min Maj 7th 9th, Dim, Dim 7th, 7th, 7th Sus4, 7th 9th, 7th #11th, 7th 13th, 7th -5, 7th -9, 7th -13, 7th #9th, Sus4, Sus2, Maj 7th Sus4,
Dim Maj 7th .
Before the Qranger will ACCURATLEY play back that chord.

Please there needs to be an answer to this question or people will be buying an instrument thinking they can use it just like an arranger but with real audio when the practicalities are that they simply cant.

Sorry Magic Alpha , i thought it was you. My mistake :-)

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-11-2009).]

spalding1968 no problem.

I see that here is really good tread.
I can say only that this will be supersonic keyboard if that will do like you say.

Qranger is doing a lot of things. Also you can put inside plugins as AFG Music said.

I can tell you that I'm not so inside in qranger that I can say that this is possible or not in the way as you said.

Because of that I use chords in giga and is working on same struming like virutal guitaris. I can use riffs from it without problems. And that can be really fantastic tool. For guitar, same can be with brass riffs of orchestral.

For solo instrument you have answer from AFG Music. But I need to say that are some limits.

First is RAM and CPU and HD transfer. This limit is high but you must also respect that is not endelss.

Maybe only Dom can answer direct on question.

BR.

Magica Alfa

Because the MS does not have the Ketron's hybrid audio/Midi system for eking out more chords than are actually recorded, every single chord type you want will need to have probably six to twelve recordings for it Why so many? Because the pitch shifting only works so far without noticeable artifacts, so you probably need three to cover all twelve scale steps, and then you need two recordings at different speeds (and actually PLAYED at two different tempos, because the same strumming pattern at 140bpm sounds completely different to the same strumming pattern at 90bpm).

So, take every chord in the book, and multiply it by six Now have them ALL instantly available, streamable from HD, and try not to max out the data buss...

I think that Magica may be referring to Real Guitar, or Virtual Guitarist, or any of the guitar 'strum' VSTi's available, rather than doing it all yourself (absurd amount of effort to make even ONE style). The only problem with these is that they are NOT really designed to be realtime tools. They can play, after a fashion, in realtime, but they are glitchy and have latency issues. But none of this matters when their true purpose is to create a control track in a DAW, edit that, and THEN have it play back sample accurate because the DAW is doing the latency compensation.

The only demo I ever heard of someone attempting this on an arranger was for Wersi, and I could hear latency all over it. Before anyone proposes these things as the answer to our dilemma, I would like to hear a 'proof of concept' and have someone trigger these in a real style, and throw some challenging changes at it. I would not be surprised to hear it glitching and 'dragging' just a hair when trying to go realtime...

I have used all of Steinberg's Guitarist series since they came out. They are NOT good at realtime, do NOT have a comprehensive selection of strummed chords, and have a limited selection of styles. And are fairly expensive. Imagine what a COMPREHENSIVE set of rhythms and chords would cost! In acoustic AND electric versions!

What is absurd is that we are even contemplating this, when superb MIDI guitar emulations are already in those poor 'closed' arrangers, and only need a bit more refinement and improvement to be even MORE convincing. Tie what we already HAVE to a bit better sample sets, and you have what the audio loop boys are struggling to achieve, with NO missing chords, no problems with pitch stretching, no problems with weird chords or 'late' chord entry, streaming audio issues ar ANYTHING. Oh, and a HUGE selection of style types already recorded for you.

I just don't see the point...

Sadly, I feel that this is ONLY geared to the younger player. If it was geared to the traditional player, it would come, like the Audya does (in part) with the guitar strum work done for you, and a huge selection of styles that employ it. No 'traditional' arranger user is going to sit down and spend weeks making the guitar audio (and bass audio, and keys audio, etc.) for ONE style, just so he can cover any chord he feels like.

What seems to be missing is an arranger that CAN appeal to both segments of the market.

The MS has to compete with WS's like the MoXS, M3 and FantomG, NOT arrangers, when it comes to getting the younger player on board. And sadly, all of these have FAR better onboard content that the MS comes with, and are quite capable of doing loop slicing and playback, too.

I believe there are VERY few players of ANY age that audition a keyboard in a store, and select the worse sounding one because it MIGHT have better capabilities (but can't show it)... We might like to THINK that they are all about creativity, but I've seen them in the stores, and what floats their boat are great sounding arps and loops OOTB. Call it a 'proof of concept' if you will.

It doesn't seem to matter... arranger OR WS, what gets it SOLD is the on board content OOTB.

Hi,
not sure I totally understand what Diki was saying, about the vitual guitarist etc, but I hear the word latency & glitches.
Sounds to me like the MS may be better suited as an arranger's tool rather than used as a realtime arranger keyboard?? ie
pre recorded songs in the studio, using styles & whatever other great tools are available on it.
Maybe for the player who only plays styles in realtime, a traditional arranger keyboard would be better suited.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, I am only speaking from what I have experienced with computers running strum libraries. perhaps you CAN get these to run smoothly on the MS. I really don't know.

But I would like to HEAR it before I am willing to concede that it can work well. In sync with the MIDI section, and lots of cord changes at odd times. Worst case scenario, and all that...

There are some pretty sophisticated things hidden under the hood on MIDI arrangers to fool you into hearing things that haven't happened. What I mean is, say you play a chord fractionally late... On a MIDI arranger, the arranger section basically 'bends' or portamento's all the incorrect notes from the earlier chord into the correct notes from the 'late' chord, so you don't hear any retriggered transients.

An audio loop can't do this (can't pitch shift a minor chord into a diminished, for instance). This tends to make imprecise chord entry FAR glitchier than it's MIDI equivalent...

Hi Diki,
I've really had no experience with strum libraries etc
the only audio I've had anything to do with, is the BIAB real track audio loops. The drum loops I could actually make use of for my korg as a groove file, bit of fiddling round , but does work. The rest of the audio loop instruments ie guitars, strings etc I haven't tried . Too many gigabytes involved, can't use them for my korg except for maybe as a groove wav file intro. Transposition would be a problem hence only an intro or ending might work.
64 mb's ram on pa800 would be my main problem haahaa
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Rikki



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-12-2009).]

diki you forget one thing about linux. with linux realtime kernel you have very low latency what is impossible at the moment with windows. and you forget that lionstracs have a very good arranger soundcard. about chords if you can make sliced oneshot wave and save it from 36 Chords and save it as giga drumkit you do not need VST or what else.

Diki wants something what is very hard to explain. To make from WAV to MIDI and back to WAV. That as AFG said it is possible.

But Diki what are you doing usual in studio? Playing VSTs and loops and than record voice or other instrumet that is easier to record than programed on PC.

On this also you are have answer from AFG.

Can you do that on other keyboards?
Can you play VST+loops in other arrangers? And where are here now limits?

With all respect on all arranger you are right each arranger is having something that nobody else is having.

But if you want tool that can handle with so many things inside and is good master keyboard than please show me it.

LINUX is really low latency OS and more stable than windows.

I am always open to having someone SHOW ME that these things are possible...

If Linux brings latency down, and the VSTi itself responds fast enough, streams the strums fast enough, etc., etc. (latency is more than the kernel, it comes from streaming issues, program response issues, MIDI issues, many things more than simple audio latency), then it should be a piece of cake for someone to actually demo this, shouldn't it? This is the thing that gives me pause... if it so easy, why hasn't anyone done it yet? Why isn't the best strum VSTi loaded at sale? Why aren't styles developed that leverage the strumming engine? Why is it up to US to make this work? If it IS that easy, surely Dom can get it to work and start making styles that use it?

Ketron managed it... to the extent that their hardware was capable of it. To the extent that the MS's hardware is capable of doing it, how come Lionstrac HASN'T?

I am still waiting for an actual audio proof of concept, rather than the constant litany of 'it OUGHT to be able to do it'. I am NOT saying it can't... don't get me wrong. But those of you telling me this can, should have DONE IT to be able to tell me this.

So.... let's hear it.