There was no debate here... You have to have a point that is valid before there IS an actual debate. Here is the original post on the thread you quoted, genesys.


Please tell me where any of that refers to sound and style editing?

The thing is, just about ANY feature, if you take as broad a definition as you have taken, no matter WHAT it does, COULD, if you were maniacally one-tracked minded about it, be taken as tangentially pertaining to style editing. Even turning on the machine and booting up has to do with style editing (because you can't edit styles while it is switched off! ). So, I guess by YOUR broad definition of the term, then yes, I asked for style development to go on hiatus while he worked on the styles. As absurd as that premise is, have it your way...

Mind you, there appears to be sufficient absurdity to go around. Here you are, championing the MS, telling those of us that are MORE than cognizant exactly what you can and can't do with an MS (for Pete's sake... if you have actually READ my posts once again, you would have read that I have an extensive VSTi collection based round my computer, and have been using them since the very start of the protocol). Trouble is, apparently, you don't actually HAVE an MS! So, what's the deal? Where's your major malfunction? Why don't you have one? If it is THAT superior, why are you using that piece of s**t whatever you DO have? By your own admission, you understand the MS no better than anyone else who hasn't got one!

What is this, Debating 101 at high school? Pick ANY position, and argue it no matter how little you actually know? I am sorry, but I'm done with you. This wasn't a debate, it was a debacle. And I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-07-2009).]

Remember that the cry was that the sounds that the MS use for styles and the styles themselves did not sound good so Dom was in his own way trying to fix that problem.

Any intelligent person would have gotten from past post on the MS that there was a call for DOM to stop technology development and concentrate on content. Now after the fact some people want to play semantics in order to avoid sounding contradictory.


Whether or not you agree with his approach is a different story. You would have preferred Dom getting musicians to program the styles. However, Dom’s approach is he will give the user the technical tools to create new styles and edit existing styles best suited for them.

I never said you don’t use VSTs. So I don’t know where you got that from. While I do not have an MS, like you, I use VSTs to on a computer to help in production. On my arranger, I also include sample sounds in my user styles. That is another feature that Dom was developing for the MS. VSTs on the MS is just but one of many features on the MS.
So know one is saying you do not know how to use VSTs, computer and musical instruments. Actually I think your vast knowledge and experience could be what is preventing you from understanding the concept of the MS.

The concern is whether persons actually understand the concept of the MS.

You can not say the MS should be like a T2 OTB and say you understand the concept of the MS. They are two completely different things. Comparing both and trying to make one like the other only demonstrates a lack of understanding of one.

When I said good debating with you I was referring to Spalding.
Interesting you should use the word “debacle” because that is how I would characterize the unraveling of your prier post on the MS and the apparent need to now step away from them by subtle technicalities and definition of terms.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 06-07-2009).]

Please answer me these questions.

What kind(s) of arranger(s) do you own, genesys? Do you you play "live" and do you use an arranger when you do?

Are you using VST's "live" or is it just for studio work?

Why do you not have a Mediastation? It seems to be the ideal VST player.

Thanks in advance.

Ian

I use the Gem Genesys.
I play live.
I do use the arranger feature.

I do not use VSTs live )I do not carry a computer to a gig). Right now I just use them in the studio.

I don’t have a MS because I am not ready to buy another arranger at this time. When I am actually ready to buy another arranger the MS would be on my list.


BTW the ability to play VSTs would only be one consideration for me. At the time I am ready to buy another arranger I will evaluate what’s on the market and make my decision from there.

Genesys you said

"Well obviously I can not provide that demo because I do not have a MS."

And yes you do have to have skill when working with VSTs.
If some one bought the MS because of the fact that it could use VSTs, then presumably they would have use VST before and they would have known that there is some skills required in using them."

This is the crux of the matter Genesys. Making great styles has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your ability to work with VSt's or Qranger or Livestyler or any other feature on the MS OR ANY OTHER KEYBOARD. Understanding how to use VSTs or any other feature requires ZERO MUSICAL ABILITY/SKILL. Let me use a practical non music example. I can coach you in all the technical steps involved in making a jumpshot in basketball but to actually score takes skill ! Similarly i can theorise about how the Qranger, or live styler features or the use of VST's can help you make great styles however non of those things will help you make great styles beacuse great music is 100% SKILL DEPENDANT.

And i am sorry that you cant provide an example of a great style made from the MS with all these style enhancing features . I really wish you did own one because after 4-5 years i am still waiting for an MS owner or the manufacturer to do it.After so long somebody somewhere must be close to doing it surely ?......Surely !



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 06-07-2009).]

Thanks for your reply, Genesys.

Do you use the on-board CD burner and recorder, or do use a software sequencer like Sonar or Cakewalk?

In other words, is the CD burner and on-board sequencer of any use to you?

Looks and sounds like a nice keyboard (I listened to the demos)...do you mind the 5 octave keybed, or do you use a controller along with the Genesys?

Ian

delete

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

The CD burner is just that you can make a data CD to back up data or you can make an Audio CD to play on a regular CD player. You can also play music CDs on the Genesys.

The Genesys is no substitute for an audio sequencer (you can only record one take of audio). However it can come in handy when you are not near a computer and you need to get a quick CD with your music to some one.
(I have had productions played and recorded on the Genesys play on local radio stations).

The CD burner is useful but not essential. I wish the Genesys had USB.


I have to use the 61 key Genesys since they did not offer a 76 key one (they have an 88 key but you can not travel with that.)
I don’t use it with a 76 key controller as that is too much gear to carry around.

Just to be sure, I use the Genesys pro S and not the original genesys.
I know I have been saying Genesys as that is what I am accustom to call it but there are differences between the Genesys, Genesys pro, Genesys S, Genesys pro S, Genesys pro or, Genesys xp and Genesys ensemble.

What list, genesys? You say if you get a new arranger, the MS is on the list? With as rabid a 'defense' of the MS as you have just shown (sputter all you want, you HAVE misquoted me and put words into my mouth I have NEVER said), and the obvious awe you hold for this keyboard, what other arranger could possibly be on the list? Nothing else has it's capabilities, not even Wersi.

You would only be contradicting your own statements (and joining the ranks of those who 'obviously don't understand' the MS) if you chose anything else.

Come to think of it, I REALLY look forward to you getting one. Upon which, we probably won't hear word one from you ever again, while you struggle with the problems that are so obvious to most everyone else While POTENTIALLY being very 'open', the skill to turn an essentially empty shell into a gig ready machine has yet to be demonstrated by any MS owner to my knowledge (Serbian players excepted, who basically have no CHOICE when it comes to getting styles for their market), unless they are content to play PSR styles into a PSR sound set.

If THAT is your definition of gig ready, why not just buy a PSR and a V-Machine?

You are completely unwilling to demonstrate what you already DO use, which leads anyone but the most gullible into believing that it compares poorly to what is currently available, and also leads us to believe that, should you ever get an MS (as if there should be any choice, given your worship of it), you will also join the ranks of all those who have castigated us for 'not getting it', while at the same time, completely incapable of posting any music that proves that THEY do....

In FOUR YEARS of waiting, you can count on the fingers of ONE HAND the music that has been made on an MS that wasn't a complete joke (including the factory demos) that got posted here. Given your unwillingness to show that you even can do what you claim on your current arranger, no-one in their right minds is expecting you to show that you 'get it' on the MS. No-one else that owns one here 'gets it' AND posts music to back it up. Why would you be any different?

I am utterly fed up with all these 'theoretical' defenses of a piece of gear that no-one is proud enough of their music to POST IT. Korg owners, Yamaha owners, Ketron owners, Roland owners... None of these make excuses for why they don't post. They are HAPPY to post what they do.

Only MS users (and you) got some kind of reason. We wouldn't 'get it', we 'don't understand the capabilities', there's no one standard for 'good' (if that's not bullshit, what is?! )... All I am hearing is 'It sucks, and we don't want to get caught proving we don't know what we are talking about'.

And only great style driven music, posted by owners, will make me think otherwise.

Diki I refer you to these...I actually posted them much earlier in this thread but you gyts have been so intent on chipping at each other you may have missed them...They are from magica alfa and in my view they are not the "joke" you seem to think all the demos are...Here is the paste in of the links:
_________________________________________
In fact a SZ member Magica Alfa has done some demos using partly audio style creation and utilising the many great Giga/Linux sampler sounds... http://www.esnips.com/doc/c775b069-a794-4bc0-afa7-2e28dab983cd/Pop-1 http://www.esnips.com/doc/152919db-7637-4bb9-a7ea-30ea7a55f470/Style-Funky http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd35fe8c-73d7-42ab-bbee-ed444edd229e/HOUSE-STYLE
_____________________________________________

Dennis