Look, we've actually got Dom, the developer, here by simply TALKING about the issues... He's talking about the issue (at least, one of them), when he SURE wasn't here talking about it before (while it was happening).

This is what happens simply being willing to discuss things here... enough manufacturer attention they come back and talk to us about it. Not to JUST those that own them, but to those who are keeping a weather eye out for how this 'work in progress' is coming along...

And all it took was someone making public the problem. It didn't really hurt, now did it? Just imagine... a place on the web where people could go to not just hear about the GOOD things in a potential arranger purchase, but all of the drawbacks, too... Then let the chips fall where they may. I've got no problem with anybody buying anything... just with potential problems being 'hush-hush' on a cross manufacturer public forum, and those potential buyers being ill-informed.

"Cause I might be one of those buyers one day...

Yes, buy a OL and work always perfect.. http://forum.openlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=1133

Then when someone will post there one big issue, OL will move it from the pubblic forum.
register and login and then you can find TON of basic shame issue too.
If they can not make stable working standard Windows OS and application, what can happen if they develope some propietary tools?

All this features you can make in one simple 400 USD laptop + M-Audio midi controller keyb too...
Let me see if you are able to running the Livestyler + Forte + Kontakt...and then let me see in Live gig if you are able to use it ( without crash of course)

Like Fran said..maybe just someone there have the money for replace to one S900 or a used keyb...

You have waiting 4 years for the Audya and still you have to wait xxxx for the styles editor or sampler upgrade.
T3 cost a lot of money and still can not play one poor Mp3 or loading 1Gb RAM sampler in about 1 hour..they just fixed the sustain pedal for the sampler...OMG...I tough Yamaha was perfect...

About the MS performace tool, I told a lot of time.
This feature was good working before.
we have now integrated the 8 multiple asio patch, new players engine with playlist, Qranger 4.1, livestyler and many new others features.
Untill the Mp3 CDG karaoke on multiple display is added, we will not update and fix the performance system.
When the all new engines are running and full working, we can update the Performance system that BURN the all application in one key preset.

@BACHUS
I have also a family and I make the vacation when I like and where I like.
My software developer make the same too, july and august is NOT the time for develope software, thats all.
remember also that the all company in Italy from midle july to end august are totally closed too, so...where is the problem?

I'm always online with my Apple Iphone and Asus EEPC and I can support online everywhere.
Do you have a MS?? No...then where is your problem?

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

AFG.., I would say the biggest hold back for the MS in the arranger community (and def within the arranger community in the United States).., is OUT OF BOX appeal.

Yes.., there has been a lot of MS bashing here over the years.., and even Dom has been very upfront IMO on some of the issues with the MS too. However.., arranger players 99.99% of the time are looking for that OUT OF BOX unit. Any reasonable person here can clearly see the MS has some serious capabilities (there's no question about that considering the MS is a computer with an amazing custom built midi controller surrounding it).

Where the MS is really hurting is in its PRESET STYLES. Most arranger players ARE NOT looking for a keyboard that OUT OF THE BOX requires a great deal of CONVERTING STYLES from other makers. More work on the MS is placed on CONVERTING STYLES from other makers (using the work that has already been done by another companies style developers, whos blood and sweat went into creating those great styles) rather than Lionstracs actually creating THEIR OWN styles that are at the same quality level of the major brands out there.

The average arranger player (without offending anyone) isn't a style writer. They're looking for an arranger to have strong presets out of the box that require minimal editing (should there be a need to edit a style).

I've always said that given the POWER of the MS and where it currently sits with its features, that the MS is being MARKETED WRONG.

The MS is an AMAZING open source SYNTH/WORKSTATION with the ability to run multiple VST software programs that "soncially" allows the MS as a SYNTH/WORKSTATION to go places where a hardware unit cannot take you.

Because of the quality of the MS's PRESET styles and how much work it takes from the USER in having to CONVERT STYLES FROM OTHER MAKERS the MS as an ARRANGER is SECONDARY. I say it's secondary because for the MS to function using its arranger capabilites as the units PRIMARY then OUT OF THE BOX it MUST without question have PRESET STYLES that compete with the big makers. At this point the MS does not have this.., and requires YOU the USER to do a great deal of work in converting styles from other companies

Until Dom gets a "style development" team together that is capable of producing high quality PRESET styles that sound as good or better than the competition.., then the MS as an arranger will ALWAYS be seen as SECONDARY to the arranger community.

ARRANGERS ARE ABOUT STYLES. A TOP END ARRANGER OUT OF THE BOX MUST HAVE TOP QUALITY STYLES "WRITTEN AND DEVELOPED" BY THE COMPANY WHO MAKES THE KEYBOARD. The MS relies heavily on the work already done by others.

If Dom changed his marketing of the MS and pushed it for what its OBVIOUS strong points are (and that's a killer open source synth/workstation) then the MS would get a lot of attention. If Dom got a good style development team together that could produce styles of the same quality you find on other TOTL arrangers that sound good OUT OF THE BOX then the arranger community would be looking at it with BOTH eyes open rather then looking at the MS with one eye open and the other shut.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-02-2009).]

Squeak, Out of the box arranger has been answered on the MS.

The combined effort of Livestyler/Lionstracs has given a style play that will make most folks content..

It is designed to play any Yamaha style...so choice of styles is answered with the vast collection available..It gives us the intros, endings, fills..that the Yamaha are capable of playing...It also has the keystart, and velocity switch to fill..Variations can be selected with or without a fill....Volume levels of the style parts can be adjusted in live play...I have found the Yamaha styles with the XG VST to be balanced with no need to change volume levels of the style parts..

I also use a Yamaha xg VST for sound source..so you have the Yamaha style play and a quality VST sound source...

For those that desire to "roll their own"..Qranger is the master editor..with little limitations....

Arranger needs are provided now with the 2009 MS...and they work..well..


What remains to be finished...as Dom , Dennis, Alfa and myself have mentioned...The CDG feature and the Performance features....There is no need to do any further development with arranger section..You can keep it as basic ..or develop your own elaborate styles..

The Livestyler addition is more than enough for me..and I am sure others..too..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 06-02-2009).]

Correct Fran!
The missing feature always request are only the CDG Mp3 on multiple display and then update the Preformance system that burn as Presets the whole MS pannel.
After this last two features, I think that the MS have the all tools that you need.

About the arranger:
Now on MS are available 2 arranger engines:
1) livestyler: integrated on MS OS and full controlled the arranger section.
IF there need some updates and features, just stress Norber and NOT Lionstracs, this because we use the native binary windows version and we can NOT edit/update NOTHING.
IF you don't like the YXG-50 VST, just open the midi I/O and remap the Livestyler to another sounds device or just load another VST, where is the problem?

2) Qranger: is already full integrated API on MS side pannel, we don't have to develope nothing more.
Qranger is based on Qtractor engine: http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html
Qtractor is still in progress developement and now is also full controlled by the Bheringer BCF2000.
When Rui Capella update the Qtractor, automatically is updated the qranger too and a new package will be released.

I will spend my time now for complete the 3 new totally GIGA products....
In october you will see some nice....

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

Look, I'm sorry, but anyone who has struggled to make a converted style sound as good on their 'closed' arranger as it did on the native one it came from already knows...

It is a frustrating, difficult, and often impossible task. After MUCH work, I have few conversions that really compete with the best of the ROM styles in my G70... Some get close, some still get used because I don't have anything close to that style, but it is rare that a conversion (unless it is some bog stupidly simple legacy style from years ago) satisfies the way the good ROM ones do. There is simply too great a connection between the data for the Part, and the sound/s it is played on. Velocity responses, sample crossover points, timbral content, envelope response, all of these things have a VERY pronounced way of affecting how you play a sound. Now take that playing, and use a different (but similar) sound, on a different synth, with different characteristics, and you end up with a totally different sounding performance. Now multiply that by ALL the tracks in the style, and multiply it MUCH more by the drumkit, where each and every sound in the kit has all the above problems...

That is the task you are faced with when getting an MS. Only way around it is to use either it's ROM styles (not exactly stellar, by comparison to T3, etc.) or Live Styler, in which case, you are using only legacy PSR styles from a decade ago, into a soundfont of legacy Yamaha sounds. In other words, you are using a TOTL arranger to sound like a MOTL PSR from over ten years ago... And if you want to route those into better sounding VSTi's, you are faced with the 'translation dilemma' that you have doing ANY conversion on ANY arranger.

The proof of the pudding, for me, comes via the complete lack of much user music that uses these tools. You would think, by now, that IF it was possible to use Live-Styler and connect easily to quality VSTi's for a better than PSR experience playing Yamaha styles, the web would have EXPLODED with happy owners going 'LOOK! It finally works!'. To my mind, I haven't even seen the FACTORY manage this trick, yet. The Live-Styler demos up there certainly didn't make me want to sell my G70 and go out and buy one of these... If I wanted to sound like a 10 year old PSR, I can go buy a used one for about $100

I already KNOW you can get great RH sounds using VSTi's. But primarily, I buy an arranger for how good the STYLE parts sound. The thought of playing a GIGAsampler piano part on an emulation of a PSR doing the styles doesn't make any SENSE.

Yamaha doesn't sell the T3 devoid of great styles and go 'use PA2Xpro conversions (and do them yourselves)'. Ketron doesn't try to sell the Audya by going 'program your OWN audio styles'... They know the market all too well. In what, four years or more of coming here, Dom has STILL to recognize this aspect of his customers. He wants US to change, not HIM...

Ketron users are apparently happily snapping up a new, very expensive arranger that can't edit ANYTHING AT ALL, yet... But the styles sound AMAZING! That is what arranger owners want. Do THAT, and then add all the other stuff, people will plow over you in the rush to buy one! Don't, and you have to start pretending it is a WS and sell to a totally different market...