Rikki, you are the type of user I also am referring to.

That is exactly the beauty of an arranger --- to be able to use it in multiple ways.

The test is not whether you have your styles sounding “as good as” a factory style )which is subjective and up to personal taste), but whether you can tweak the style so that you can make it work for you and for your show and performances.


I don’t make/recreate/edit my styles to sound like the factory ones (that would be pointless). If I wanted to use factory styles, I would not have anything to do with user styles. I make/recreate/edit styles to suit my style of playing, to sound different from others and to my own satisfaction. And posting styles that I have edited/created would also be pointless and would not prove anything because what I may like you may not like and what you may like I may not like so you would not get anything from me showing example of user styles.
It is not the style that needs to sound good but the end result of a person playing a style. I could have a “good” PA2x pro style and sound bad playing with that style but I could have one of my edited/recreated styles and sound good. Ultimately it is all about the person using and playing the arranger from setting-up and editing to playing on a gig.



BTW Diki statements like “something that sounds bloody horrible on its' new arranger,” are very subjective.

I don't see the contradiction Genesys. The Zone's arranger forum makes up such a small part of the arranger community. I don't think arranger players lack the skills to create their own styles. I'm saying BASED ON THIS FORUM and based on posts from the past regarding how styles are used..., it would appear that MOST (on this forum) are happy with the preset styles as they are and any editing is often minute. Rikki is an exception as yourself.., (when looking at THIS forum).

However.., this forum is a SMALL very very very SMALL part of the arranger playing community. The complaints regarding Ketron not adding these style recording features applies as a "whole". Ketron has greatly limited this area (even for those who do not dig too deep into style editing and may want to change a few things yet to find that those tools are not there.., at least NOT YET). For the person (and the best example I can give) or the region that you OFTEN find people writing their own styles (which is MIDDLE EASTERN music). These individuals who would commonly utilize these features are currently left in the dark if they want to buy and Audya.

Based on what I've seen over the years Genesys.., these TOTL arrangers do a very good job at covering tradtional western styles.., but MANY (stock units) do not fair well for other region's unless you spend MORE money and buy a region specific arranger (such as an oriental model).

Hell.., just talk to Nedim regarding availability of middle eastern styles on some brands of arrangers.

Again.., looking at THIS forum Genesys.., the majority here have reported they're content with the preset styles and don't feel the need to deeply edit them. It's not saying arranger players lack the skills to create them.., it's just saying that (at least here) you find owners content with 95% of what's already in the board. Not just in styles.., but even in patches.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-05-2009).]

After re reading this thread, I made changes in my post that needed correction....NONE!!!!...

My posts reflect, the use of "my MS", and "My opinions" and "My results...

I played only "my MS"..not Dennis's , not Zmago's, not Richard's, Not John's etc..

and.... none of those folks have played "my" MS...

As for misleading anyone to spend their "hard earned money" on a MediaStation...I did not, and the only reference I made to potential people inquiring about the MS....." enlighten folks that may be considering the MS"...

Also .. 2 other MS owners posted they agreed with my comments, the 3rd MS owner {Dennis), agreed with most of what I said, with the exception of negative experiences that he had on "his" MS..


My posts remain as stated...both facts about "my" MS and "my" opinions..

Hopefully, for you folks that think I sold you a false bill of goods, can read my comments again, and come away with an understanding....that I can only speak of "My" experiences on "my" MS...as the other MS owners can only state facts about "Their own MS".....

As for "potential buyers ", I can only think of one, maybe two other folks on SZ that would be a candidate to purchase a MS, with the need of patience and skill level(and desire) to make it a personal instrument...

Fran.., I still say the MS is a great keyboard. It's abilities as a workstation are top notch. It's ability to satisfy the needs of arranger players is a little touch and go.

If you enjoy writing your own styles.., and like the ability to use sounds for these styles that are in no way possible on the typical arranger..., the MS will bring a huge smile to your face as the result can be very rewarding.

For the arranger player who's looking for the out of box experience that doesn't want to convert styles or record their own, but want the same preset style quality of the big three.., well their needs may not be met on this level (out of the box using presets provided by the company).

Again.., it's not to say the MS isn't a great instrument.., because it clearly is and has capabilities that put it above many arrangers on the market. Potential buyers have to ask themselves what group they fall under. Are you a style writer.., do you enjoy tweeking and converting styles.., or do you prefer good quality presets that require little to no editing. Nothing wrong with either group you're in too.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 06-05-2009).]

Yes I see what you mean...mine just started playing up again requiring re-boot. This is AFTER the patch was applied.

I am at 7 re-boots now and STILL no sound...might have to send a message to Dom, although he will probably not reply...It will be like Vagro and I will be on some silly some spam filter that apparently does not allow even MS owners in....Anyway we will see.

Not Happy Jan!!!!!

i wonder how many other musicians trust their MS to gig with ?

Good grief, genesys...! What a load of tapdancing to get around the fact that it is obvious that you cannot make styles as good as the closed ROM ones. NO-ONE said to make them the same. Of course that is bloody stupid. As, in all fairness, that is just thinking that's what anyone would do. No-one wants to make them the same. They simply want them to sound AS GOOD. Whatever they DO make.

The point is, the factory styles, if you use them AT ALL, set a standard for excellence. The drums sound like drummers played them, the guitars sound like guitarists played them, the basslines sound like bass players played them, etc., etc.. Perform a song on one of those, and then go to a style you have made, and if your drums sound like a keyboard player programmed them, your guitars sound like a keyboard player programmed them, everything sounds a bit half-assed compared to your previous song. Now, I don't know about you, but most people I know care about not sucking every time they go to a user created style.

And, with all respect, I am afraid I cannot really take what you say seriously if you refuse to illustrate your point. You see, if I were castigating the forum for NOT using conversions much or creating their own styles, while everyone was telling me how difficult they are to do, if someone asked me to show how well I was succeeding at the task they fail at, if I thought what I had done was any good at all, I would post it. Because. if I didn't post it, I would expect everybody to assume I am secretly aware that, in comparison to what most people use, they SUCK...

Now, maybe your styles DON'T suck... but you have hardly given us any reason to think otherwise. Maybe your sense of creativity allows you to consider that a style that you created, no matter how bad, is better than a great ROM style that someone else created. Fair enough, but don't expect many to follow your example. I would be interested to hear HOW you use your styles... Do you, for instance, play in public..? Do you hold down a gig playing as an OMB or small combo where the arranger does much of the backing? Do you play Western music, or are you one of those players from smaller ethnic markets that don't HAVE good ROM styles to set a standard for?

Or, are you simply one of the myriad that has decided to champion the MS, but only in the theoretical sense? For three or four years now, countless posters have pointed out the MS's 'potential' advantage over closed arrangers, while posting absolutely nothing to show they have managed to unlock it whatsoever. Little has been posted that even rivals a MOTL closed arranger, let alone something that lives up to the hype that is bestowed on it.

I am sorry, but until you can SHOW that what you do is up to the standards that most of us here EXPECT to use in a style that is backing us, you have no right to lecture us on whether we NEED the style editing tools or not. Even polishing a conversion from something else takes all of them they can provide. There is no contradiction between saying on the one hand that doing the task is hard, and creating your own styles so they don't sound like amateurish messes is even harder, and saying that, for what little we DO use them for, they should be there.

I am sorry, but every time I hear such lame excuses as to why someone CAN'T post something to illustrate their points, merely shows you are ALREADY aware that what you have managed to create is not to the standards that we prefer. And me, I don't want to have to go to using lame styles, just so I can say I created them! That's like playing with BAD musicians, just so you can say you prefer to play live!

Most people NEED editing tools to make their conversions and assembled styles sound a bit better. But few if any (no-one has posted ANY totally user created styles here that I consider very good) need them for ground up creation. But the same tools are needed for BOTH tasks.

So forgive us when we bitch when they aren't there...

Dennis, I re installed 3.2 with the update kernel and all seems well again..I think my problem originated with me editing "Jack" connection..

Thanks Fran...I had already checked JACK and the preset was on and active after reboot, but it will not hurt to check again.... I will also re-run the patch as well to see if that makes a difference.

D

PS: DIKI did you NOT see the links I posted in a previous post to demos by Magica? A couple of the intros are a bit spacy, but get into the body of the demo and the underlying styles are pretty decent I think.

Dennis

I agree with the above except for one thing.

You can make small edits on the Audya you just can not make detail edits.
It is this synthzone market that the Audya is made for. That is why it is surprising to hear persons on this forum say that they want detail style edits on the Audya when on threads on the MS they say that they are incapable of editing styles.


For the record I would want detail style editing on the Audya and midijay. And it would be better if there is a PC program to do that.