Well, well, what do we have here?

I'd like to mention a few things that might have a negative impact on the overall sales of the S70XS/76. First, it's only $100 more for the S90XS/88 so why not just spring for the 88??, and secondly, with just 6 1/2 lbs separating the two - again, why not just spring for the S90XS/88 instead?? I'm sure Yamaha has brilliant answers to my questions but I doubt they would open up and share them with us though. As if they really need to right? I think the 88 key will far surpass the 76 key in overall sales in my opinion, even though the 76 key has that coveted "weighted" action keybed and has a slightly smaller footprint. We'll see...

OTOH, if Yamaha were to produce a 76 key high-end Arranger as the successor to the Tyros3 I will be the first in line to get one as I've said many times before. I don't think Yamaha would include a fully "weighted" action keybed on it though because it would detract from playing the other "numerous" voices on it, besides just the piano voice(s), and for which a fully weighted keybed is only intended for anyway i.e. Piano voices only.

If Yamaha happens to pull off such a feat i.e. by introducing yet another 76 key high-end Arranger after the infamous PSR9000PRO debacle, and if they keep the price around 4 Grand when it is introduced in a couple years or so - then mark my words, Yamaha will most assuredly have an immediate HIT on their hands that will top even their wildest expectations in my humble opinion. There is definitely a HUGE market for a truly superb and "extraordinarily superior" 76 key high-end Arranger, as we know. If Yamaha actually succeeds in bringing such a BEAST to the marketplace, people will gobble them up in my opinion. And like I said, I'll be the first one in line to start gobbling. >> IF.. they meet the 'other' criteria on my wish list too of course. In other words, no 76 key mediocrity please! Although I wouldn't expect Yamaha to stoop so low as to bring simply a 'mediocre' 76 key high-end Arranger to market EVER! I really do expect only the best from them if they ever did happen to bring one to market. Again.. we'll see.

All the best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 06-12-2009).]

Perhaps if the S70XS 76'er doesn't catch on, then maybe the keybed will end up in an arranger.

It's not just velocity sensitive...it has aftertouch as well, so it would be more useful than the Korg PA-588, which does not have it, and it would also be a product very different from Roland's 76/88 note weighted action arranger with aftertouch...oh, wait, I don't think they have one...neither does Korg, or Ketron or the MS....mmmmmm.

A hole in the market? Maybe.

Of course this is mostly wishful thinking, and I'm sure the next generation Tyros is already along in development, but it doesn't hurt to dream out loud.

Who knows who may be listening?

No... played one. Extensively. Considered buying one for a while.

As long as you trigger fills A BAR IN ADVANCE, there is no problem with them staying in sync. Trouble is, few arranger users ask for the fills in advance (or at least, I haven't seen many do it that way). We call for a fill whenever we feel like it, and timing the fills to be either full bar fills or half-bar pickups (or just a one beat and a crash) is one of the ways to get more variety from a small selection.

MoXS can't do this. ALL arps start on the 'one'. You ask for a different arp, it plays the current one until the end of the bar and THEN plays the next arp. OR... you go to 'immediate' mode, and whenever you hit the arp button (no matter how lousy your timing) it instantly cuts off the current arp and starts the new arp 'on the one'. No matter WHERE you are in the bar when you hit it.

I am not sure, you MIGHT be able to get arps to start on the quarter note as well as full bar if 'immediate' drives you crazy with timing glitches, but there is still NO WAY to get around the fact that basically, there are NO 'fills' as such (they will always start on the 'one' even if you call for them on the 'two'). They are just regular arps, that behave exactly the same as every other arp, only you program a fill pattern into them.

Arranger fills are entirely different to arranger Variations. They can come in on any beat (a variation waits for the next bar), and whatever beat they come in on is still in sync with the bar beat.

Unless there's been an OS upgrade to add this, your buddies are simply working around the issue, they don't have a solution...

Oh and I couldn't find ANY way to trigger arps other than the front panel buttons (small and in the center). No MIDI shortcuts, no assigning it to footswitches...

Yamaha have got SO close with the chord following on the MoXs's, but still have a few small details to clear up before it rivals an arranger for ease of segment triggering.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-12-2009).]

Diki, I ahve explained this before to you but I will again, if you want a rest on the first beat you can program a rest so the fill starts on beat 2, or 3 for that matter.

In fact I had several 2 beat pickup/fills. I had to do them myself, but they could be done.

Same goes for the endings, as there are none on board I made some, ending on different beats as well. The arps on the yammies are VERY flexible.

There are quite a few factory arps that would lend themselves to this manipulation ans still sound okay, for others you may need noted adjusting as well, ie removal. but you can get it to work.

I giged with an XS7 for a while and I had no fill issues at all.

Oh wait , yes there was one...The ridiculous one where fills could be triggered via a footpedal on the rack XS, but NOT on any keyboard versions. I still do not understand why Yamaha would not include this on both.

I will be very interested in the 70 when it arrives out here. The physical size (not weight) of the S90ES was the only reason I moved on from it. Apart from that, and no footpedal arp triggering, it was great.

Dennis

Well, Diki, I do know I haven't received any complaints about the fills, other than you, but I do see your point quite well.

I'm wondering if the behavior of the fills can be changed with an OS upgrade?

We had an issue with the T3 where the synchro-start was not working when recording...you couldn't do pick up notes or start a tune with a melody line, and then hit a chord and have the accompaniment start properly on the beat.

I'm sure I wasn't the only clinician or owner to discover that little issue, but it only took less than a month for a OS upgrade to be made available, once it was reported, and now all is well. The multipads had been upgraded on the T3 to work with synchro-start, and this caused a change in the synch start function...but only when recording...it worked fine otherwise, and since many users use style Intros, some people weren't even aware of it.

Even I was impressed with the quick response.

Someone should mention it on the Motifator forum, if they feel the arps' response needs to be changed...Yamaha does listen...these days, with so much competition, it pays to listen and respond.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-12-2009).]

Originally posted by: ianmcnll



A fully weighted keybed in a 76 key Tyros4?? I wouldn't mind myself, although the action would need to be similar to a Clavinova CVP 309/409 for it to suit me adequately. If it's too heavy it will be a bear to do trumpet runs, string/guitar solo's, etc. OTOH, if the fully weighted action is "just right" I think it would actually sell quite well in my opinion. Too heavy though and Yamaha could be stuck with an under-performer sales wise. Semi-weighted like the Tyros3 has would probably be sufficient for the majority of arranger players most likely. When you add a "fully" weighted keybed you instantly pack on pounds to the overall weight of course and with a lot of people on this forum complaining about anything over 30 lbs., I shudder to think what they would say if it happened to be 40 lb plus. Lighter is better of course but I, for one, would sure be open to a "fully" weighted 76 key Tyros4 if the action was acceptable i.e. not too heavy, even though it happened to weigh upwards of 40 lbs. or even slightly over 40 lbs. 45 lbs. and over though would certainly be a big factor for a lot of arranger players, whom a big segment tend to be older folks i.e. Senior Citizens and older. So yes, for Yamaha to really have a fully weighted SUCCESS and a HUGE seller on their hands, they would probably need to keep the thing under 40 lbs. if at all possible. For a 76 key fully weighted high-end Arranger that is. Hopefully it will be the Tyros"4", although it probably won't be "fully" weighted for the reasons mentioned above. Stranger things have happened of course but I would really be quite shocked if it's actually "fully" weighted. In fact, I'd be really shocked if Yamaha ventured out on a limb to make another 76 key high-end arranger again. Time will tell... I hope it's true.

All the best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 06-13-2009).]

Dennis, I know you can do this with the arps, but it STILL doesn't do what arranger fills do. You can ask for a fill at ANY TIME. And it will play in sync. You don't have to write special fills for particular beats, and even more importantly, if you ask for a fill a fraction later or earlier than you programmed, you don't end up with a train wreck. Who HASN'T called a fill in a fraction late or early? Well, actually, many of us don't even realize that we HAVE screwed up, because the arranger engine handles everything automatically, with nary a hiccup. MoXS arps are FAR less forgiving.

However, I did not realize you can make loops 'one shot' for Endings. That's good to know.

But if the MoXS added the 'auto fill' system from arrangers (defeatable like it is on most arrangers, too), song arrangement navigation would be much less timing critical than it is now... and the MoXS WOULD be the modern alternative to the arranger that is hasn't yet become, IMO.

Yes that is true Diki, and to be totally honest I did find it a bit of a pita at times and not very intuitive. Certainly nothing like an arranger, but still achievable up to a point.

Had it been easy and like an arranger I daresay I would still be using the XS

THE best non-VST soundset on any keyboard in my view.

Dennis

Not having bought an XS, I didn't feel it was up to me to mention this at Motifator... But I AM surprised that no-one has brought this up yet, as obvious as the concept is (at least to arranger players!).

I am sure an OS upgrade could bring this about, but it IS a bit more involved than you make out, Ian, IMO. Perhaps you could mention it yourself (or encourage - by showing them how easy this is on an arranger? - your XS owning buddies to do it).

And perhaps Yamaha will be MORE responsive than they have to the myriad requests for the mythical 76 arranger...

I'm not really surprised, as I've heard nothing about the fills at all...I checked the Motifator forum and there isn't any mention of it.

Regarding the requests of a 76 note Tyros...I think we can group this in with the myriad of requests for a Chord Sequencer on the next G-series.

I sure would like to see the S70XS's action in a lightweight controller...the KX8 doesn't have aftertouch, and having a weighted hammer action with it, would make it the ideal controller, at least for me.

I could live with a 76 semi-weighted action on an arranger, but I'd still have to have a weighted action for my piano, so it wouldn't be that great a benefit for me.

There are days I regret selling my old KX-88...now, that was a terrific feeling keyboard.