I would like to see a step away from this 'live loop' idea, which is anything BUT, IMO.

For me, the whole idea of arrangers is their spontaneity, their ability to say take a rock kit pattern, and play it on brushes (sometimes it works!), or an electric guitar pattern on classical guitar. You can't do this to a loop. The feature 'Cover Tools' on the Roland's, where you can take any style, and give it a wide selection of alternative sounds can stretch enormous variety out of just a few patterns. Loops, sorry. WYSIWYG...

WS's and TOTL arrangers are starting to get ROM sample sizes up close to the point where VERY detailed sampled instruments can be used. Go to the websites of things like EZ Drummer, BFD, etc., and you will hear demos AT LEAST as realistic as the Audya's. But they have NONE of the drawbacks. Listen to the Guitar Modes of Korg (and to a lesser extent, Roland) and especially Yamaha's Mega Voice patterns. Imagine them with simply a much larger sample size to get greater dynamics and inflexion from them, and once again you have something that sounds as good as the live loops, but with NONE of the drawbacks.

Live audio loops is a dead end that is going to draw us all down into uniformity, because once you get them, there is NOTHING you can do to change them. So we all end up sounding identical. Personally, this is the last thing I want!

I would also like to see a move more towards integrating styles, SMF's and chord tracks, so the whole thing is interchangeable. Want to play the verse with a style, do the solo with an SMF, play a vamp back in style mode then have it repeat while you jam? Most arrangers make this (if even possible in the first place) much harder than it needs to be.

The arranger should never get in the way of what YOU want to do. All too many off them say 'this way only' or put up considerable roadblock to making these kinds of moves on the fly, at your whim. Too many of them seem designed by guys with pocket protectors, rather than by arranger PLAYERS.

Well...This in my mind creates a LONG list of things that would make me not like any particular arranger keyboard (in other words if I designed one myself):

(Not necessarly in order of importance)

This list is about a TOTL arranger.

1) #1 is lack of TOP QUALITY PRO Workstation level sounds, especially acoustic sounds. If they can put them in a worksation they can put them in a arranger.
After all this is a musical instrument and without the great sounds...nothing else matters. (Also, many have technical problems with some of the sounds, and it can ruin a performamce). Of course currently we have a few sounds that are better than the WS's, Keep those :-).

Actually I want all the instruments to be superb, realistic, beautiful as if I am listening to the real thing. No vibrato, tibre, digital noise, volume, or other tech. problems.

2) Lack of quality styles for the music I play

3) Poor MIDI implementaton (it needs to be at the same level as a PRO workstation)also, EVERY button, slider etc needs to send AND respond to external MIDI data.

4) Lack of an OS with lots of great, musically useable functions

5) Lack of a touch screen (10 inch) (Also, ALL main operating functions need to have a button in addition to the touch screen) It is very important to me to be able to do config/programming ect using a keyboard (touch screen or PC) not just buttions...especially when keying text.

6) Lack of FULL style, sound and sequencer detailed editing.

7) Lack of Sampling. Should have PLENTY of sample RAM. At least 2 GB. user ram (Memory is cheap now)

8) Not having ALL sound samples in RAM or EEPROM...or whatever technology to be able to replace poor samples from the factory or just your own in some cases...with user samples. I don't want to be stuck with a poor sample with problems.

9) Lack of great MFG support AND forum support.

10) Lack of a top quality keybed. Models need to be available in 61 and 76 synth action AND 76 and 88 weighted hammer action and need to be PRO quality

11) Lack of full PC software to edit all aspects of the sounds, styles , midi data AND organzation of all data in the keyboard. Especially any user data.

12) Lack of build quality in general, want metal chassis, not all plastic

13) Lack of all arranger functions (VARS, FILLS, INTRO, ENDINGS) to be perfectly smooth with the fills working with each VAR without any glitching. (Is this too much to ask after all these years of development?)

14) Lack of a optional footpedal with at least 10 buttons to control any functions on the arranger, include also 2 continuous controlers pedals built in of top quality and smoothness.

15) Lack of the function to have a any/all sound on Upper (1,2,3)or lower (1,2) to be able to be programmed EXTERNAL with midi bank/program change to be able to directly select any user sounds on an external sound module ot soft styth just by selecting a style, performance, OTS etc. (My PA2 has this, Yamaha said I don't need it!)

16) Lack of a full function PRO quality voice processor including pitch correction, voice modeling and 4 part harmony. Or better yet...take out the cost of any VP and I'll just get a TC Helicon voice live 2.

17) Lack of the feature that has my coffee ready at any pre-programmed time...and the slot in the cabinet that holds at least 2 cold beers! :-)

Lee S.

Actually the GEM Genesys Pro S has 14 of the 16 items you mentioned. 17 not counted, though it is a very good idea. Of course some of the items are based on personal taste such as great sounds and style types. But sounds can be edited deeply and there are many styles to choose from and it is easy to create your own.



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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

Yeah..but where is the coffee maker and cup holders...?

Trouble is, as Diki has often pointed out, the "open" arrangers like Lionstracs (and Wersi) are doomed to be an obscure curiosity in the industry until such time as they have the talent the likes of Roland, Korg etc have programming styles for them. An arranger succeeds or fails purely on the basis of its styles. Everything else is just gravy. Without compelling, musical, styles an arranger - however well specified it might be otherwise - is just another keyboard.

Correction...The MediaStation is an "open keyboard"....not an "open arranger"...It is not "just another arranger"....

The MS is not the average keyboard...thus the owners/users are also "Not" average..

I would never base my purchase of an "arranger" keyboard on existing styles...to me a style is a style...The ability to edit or add styles are more important than what ships from the factory..

Also for me...The capabilities to do "all" aspects of keyboard players needs...makes the keyboard..not just the arranger section..

I want a keyboard that can stand on it's own, as a piano..organ...synth...A board that can sequence/edit..a board that can handle the mixing on the gig...a board with a great mic input and effects...Least on my list is the "auto" play of the arranger mode..I use this mode, but sparingly, and edited the way I want it ...not the way the factory wanted I and everyone else to sound..

Fortunately..I have this in my 2 main keyboards..The MediaStation, and the G70...

Another way to look at it is the talent will be in the hands of the user for the 'open' systems. What I mean is the person who purchases an open system is typically going to be more technically advanced and has the desire to create their own styles. The trouble as I see it is there are just not many arranger players, at least in the U.S., with the level of programming expertise to be able to take advantage of instruments like the MediaStation. Or if someone does have the knowledge, they may just not want to take the time.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

Fran, have you made any of your own styles on the Mediastation...from scratch?

I know it uses Yamaha styles (not exclusively, of course), but have you done anything to them significantly?

How about a simple demo of one or two of your own styles, considering you are "not average" since you own one of these instruments, and have had it for some time now?

"I use this mode, but sparingly, and edited the way I want it ...not the way the factory wanted I and everyone else to sound"
..

Ian, did you read this quote too...