He answers the question "Why DO you like this arranger?!?!?" ...
thnx Steve ...
t.

Steve I watched all his videos...and I noticed he hardly plays the Tyros2..

He definitely favors the Hammond and secondly the DX7II FD.....also likes the KN6000 vocal voices(why I do not know)..

I even noticed he favors the Korg PA80 drums....and strings....Go figure....

BTW: I am bored being off on a Friday night...Maybe I should get a Tyros3 to keep around here when I have the odd night off...oh yeah...a Bose Compact too...

Wow! What a cool setup.

It sounds like he's using the T2 layered with the sounds in the Hammond, in some of the tunes.

He's certainly not a Roland guy...only Hammond (1), Technics (1), Korg (2) and Yamaha (2).

Definitely a man with good taste in instruments, and an excellent player as well.

Thanks for sharing, Steve.

Ian

What that clip brings into sharp focus for me is how modern keyboards à la the Tyros have become utterly homogenous.

Contrast the Hammond - it obviously has a "signature sound"; ditto he DX-7 with that instantly recognizable all-time classic electric piano patch.

Twenty, thirty years from now, what will we remember a Tyros for?

Mega Voices, Super Articulated sounds (gen 1 and 2)...first arrangers with these incredibly life-like and accurate sounds, and they are still the arrangers against all others are compared..and found wanting.

Korg has managed to venture into similar territory with their DNC, but sadly, Roland still uses very nearly the same technology in their latest arrangers, that they used in the E-70...nearly 20 years ago.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 07-04-2009).]

Not really. There have been and are a number of arrangers that include velocity layers to offer varying degrees of articulation. It is just that Yamaha decided to market the idea and make unknowing people think that it is something special and unique to the Yamaha brand.

I'm not picking on you, just pointing out a fact.

The difference is in the amount of user control when playing "live", and the use of mega voices in the accompaniment

Not picking on you, Dave, but what arrangers had the equivalent of SA voices(with "live" user control...i.e. switching between mono and poly, as well as sliding to the next note) before the Tyros2, and what arrangers used mega type voices in the accompaniment before the original Tyros?

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 07-04-2009).]

Before I say this, I want to point out that I haven't worked for this company for well over a year so have no reason to push them. And I apologize for sounding like any number of other fanatics around here regarding their brand of choice. Unlike some of them though, I am not totally blinded by the marketing of a single brand and very open to the unique advantages each brand offers. So anyway...

Generalmusic has been using velocity layers for some of their sounds for years as have other brands. As an example, the first WK/SK series (15+ years ago) had the ability to access two separate samples via velocity on ever drum kit. This was nice for say a jazz kit where the brush was stirred on the snare with lower velocities and slapped with higher velocities. Or a solo trumpet that would do a gliss when the key was played with force. The GEM Genesys can have a total of 32 velcocity layers, each having full synth editing, mono or poly, etc. All I am saying is that these ideas are not new. I am not taking anything away from your brand of choice. I have owned several Yamaha instruments throughout the years. But when someone makes a claim regarding a feature being a first when it is not, it seems right to bring the facts into the conversation.

Please describe for me what the mega voices and super articulated voices are, in the way they are created I mean.

Why? You can easily look it up...but I will clarify something.

On the Tyros, the mega voices are used in the accompaniment...I'm not aware that any other manufacturer used them in the accompaniment...that's what they were designed for.

SA voices, for one thing, automatically switch between mono and poly, depending on how the player phrases the line....legato removes the "attack" of a Sax voice, for instance, or the pick attack of a guitar string.

It is different than simple portamento, where holding down a key and then pressing another, allows a slide to a new note.

That's what makes Yamaha's SA unique.

Mega voices in the accompaniment are also a first for Yamaha.

We can be picky about this, but SA is a whole new level of multi sample control...have you actually played a T2 or T3?

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 07-04-2009).]

Why not?

I'm not trying to catch you up. I only ask in case I am missing something. If there is something I am not aware of in the way these voices work, I would like to know so I don't mis-speak. If you aren't comfortable answering, that's cool.

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

Dave's right. The technology is old.., but Yamaha jumped on the marketing of it. It's been out for some time now. Today it's a bit more polished.., but the technology isn't something new. Like Dave said.., Yamaha decided to use it as a marketing angle. Nothing wrong with that..., as it was a very good business decision for them. However.., their marketing is a little misleading in that they make it appear as if THEY created this NEW technology that really isn't all that new. It's interesting though that with the new models that keep coming out.., how quickly we forget the good things about the previous models. The makers repackage the old technology and we always fall for it as being "groundbreaking" and "new".

Well, Dave, they are explained quite well on many sites, so I don't want to just cut and paste...look it up.

I've edited my other post, as I thought I was a bit abrupt...sorry.

I'm not aware of any company that used them in the accompaniment...mega voices, that is, and I'm also not aware of a company that had velocity switched samples that responded quite like SA...again, it is not just velocity, but also phrasing that is taken into account with the Yamaha voices.

You must try a Tyros3 Sax sound, and play around with it...same goes for the SA Concert Guitar...it is an eye (and ear) opening experience...wonderful control just by technique....even for an average player, it works very well, with a bit of practice.

Ian

Technology is old, but Yamaha's treatment and implementation of it is not.

What they "invented" was a superior way of controlling the SA voices in "real time"...which makes them accessible to even the average player.

The use of Mega Voices is not new...sure, they are just advanced multi-samples, but Yamaha used these sounds in their styles (accompaniment), and they reacted musically and realistically...no one else used them that way (until Korg DNC?)...especially as a "live" background.

OK, thanks for the info. I have played the Tyros 1 and 2, but not the 3. Although I have listed to many demos on the company website and YouTube.

So like I was saying;

The Genesys (and way before that model) used velocity-switched samples in many of the sounds for live play and for those used in styles.

As for the sax example, I think you are referring to legato/staccato instead of mono/poly. The Genesys offers legato mode that when turned on, moves the sample start point beyond the attack portion of the sound, which accomplishes the same thing. And about 9 years ago on a Baldwin PS2600 (GEM SK880 in a home cabinet) I programmed a nylon guitar to call up squeaks, taps, etc. along with the normal guitar sample via velocity cross-switching creating a finished sound very similar to the nylon guitar on the Tyros 3 demo I just listened to on the Yamaha website.

And something else you mentioned was the additional control available but you didn't specify what controllers you meant. The ART.1 and ART.2 left panel buttons are cool in that they can call up different samples momentarily while playing. A great idea. One the we developed while I was at ENSONIQ back in the mid-80's.

I will say that Yamaha has really done a tremendous job of taking advantage of these techniques, probably more than other companies at this point. But again, I am just pointing out that these ideas were not originated by Yamaha.

That's all.

Cheers,

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 07-04-2009).]

Of course, you're right, Dave, Yamaha didn't invent them...never said they did.


As I said in my earlier statement..."Mega Voices, Super Articulated sounds...first arrangers with these incredibly life-like and accurate sounds, and they are still the arrangers against all others are compared..and found wanting.

I was simply referring to the Tyros being the first arranger made by Yamaha to use these type voices...hence the importance of these instruments, and the reason they are considered a standard...and yes, you're right again..."Yamaha has really done a tremendous job of taking advantage of these techniques, probably more than other companies at this point."

I agree wholeheartedly.

Sorry, but you are all wrong...

Yamaha's SA technology is a quantum leap forward in sample control in a musical setting. No other keyboard of any kind has had this technology prior to the T2. Certain advanced computer based samplers had it, but Yamaha were the first to implement this in a realtime fashion in a ROM based keyboard.

The primary difference, Dave (and yes, given your experience, we are astonished you don't already know this) is that, for legato and staccato samples, the Yamaha's do NOT move the start point of the sample past the transient. They use an entirely different sample. This is revolutionary. Add to that intervalic rules (a jump of less than a certain interval triggers one sample set, a larger jump triggers another, totally different set) and different sample sets for mono and poly playing, and you have a paradigm shift forward in detail.

Now add this to Yamaha's ability in the Tyros series (the MotifXS's SA implementation is FAR more 'pocket protector' than player driven) to correctly switch in the appropriate sample sets based SOLELY on how you play and phrase (mind you, SA2's little buttons are a bit more 'pocket protector' that the old SA system), rather than any non-keyboard technique (pedals, switches, etc.) and you truly have something that is light years ahead of the competition.

Korg have STARTED to catch up here, but while they have the OS down pretty well, it needs to be married to an entirely new set of samples for it to be as effective as SA. So far, as DNC is just a free update, the existing sample set is being retasked somewhat half-assedly, and little in the way of totally new samples have yet to be recorded. But as soon as they do, Korg will have this nailed, as well.

SA is light years beyond sample velocity switching (which has been around for years), and I am surprised that you didn't investigate WHY it sounded so good when it initially came out. It is a PLAYER'S system first and foremost, which is why is is SO good. No arcane button pushes to learn. Just PLAY, and let the technology do it for you. What better system could you ask for?

A 76 note keybed?

First off, stop using 'SA' to describe Yamaha's Super Articulated voices. Roland coined that years ago for their Structured Adaptive Synthesis technique. how about S.ART or something similar. Just a thought.

Second, diki, quit reading into what people write and simply read what people write. And I see no reason for you to make a personal slam against me. I have never pretended to know everything unlike some others, and in fact if I am unclear on something, I am not at all embarrassed to say so and to ask for information from others. I don't plan on responding to anything else you have to say so save yourself some typing by not responding to this. Thank you.

Finally, Ian, thanks again for clearing some things up for me. And regarding your suggestion to search around a bit for answers to my questions, well that is something I would normally do. I guess I was taking the easy way out by asking a forum member. And I apologize for assuming you were giving full credit to Yamaha in coming up with certain features. I guess I am guilty of reading into what you wrote. Sorry.

Have a great day!

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 07-05-2009).]

Dave, there is no need to apologize...it was as much my fault for the way I phrased my post....we both know there is nothing totally new under the sun.

I guess I could have explained SA in detail, but, I am actually too lazy.

Concerning the acronyms...Roland called their synthesis system SAS, for Structured Adaptive Synthesis...not SA.

It was used on the VK-1000 organ, as well as their digital pianos...it came out in the mid 80's...I believe the RD-1000/ MKS-20/RD-300S/RD-250S were probably the first to use it commercially.

They also came out a bit later with Advanced Structured Adaptive Synthesis, around 1990...I don't think the acronym changed, but the sound was a tad better.

I worked as a clinician for Roland back in the late 80's and early 90's, before I committed to Yamaha.

Sometimes the written word conveys less (or more) that we intended...sorry if I made things a bit confusing.

Ian