Hi, after making music for 15 years,and using computers for the last 9 years and getting tired sick at their crazy flakiness,I have decided to return to the roots,buying a good arranger keyboard and a digital multitracker.

I study music and I am the sort of lone composer kind of guy (hopefully not for much longer! ). I don't play hotels or ballrooms (nothing wrong with that,of course) ,
I am into a lot of different music,especially game and movie soundtracks.

I have always liked arranger keyboards because of the immediacy at building demos of ideas and experimenting with a lot of chord progressions. You get the idea

The digital multitracker is not a dilemma: a cheap Tascam DP02 CF will do. The arranger keyboard is more of a problem. I don't want (can't) spend a lot but my interest is going toward either a Korg PA500 or a Yamaha PSR-s700.

I feel that the Korg has their usually nice touchscreen ,and the pa500 seems well made. But my feel is that Yamaha seems always to be the leading brand for arrangers.
Which of the two do you suggest,and why?
Now,the sounds are NOT an issue,because I will get a Ketron SD-2 module to use with either keyboard. This module seems to be what I look for because the acoustic sounds seems really good.

My main area of interest is the styles,sequencer features and arranger capabilities. Not so much for live performance,more for private composition practice.

Also,I have some doubts about using the SD-2 with the Yamaha: will it support the Yamaha XG features? I would be sorry to give up Yamaha's XG capabilities because I have heard that it's very good.

Feel free to suggest other keyboards in this price range. I have already tried the Roland E-50. Good keyboard,but not very exciting....the touchscreen wasn't very responsive as the one found on Korg keyboards.

In conclusion,I am looking for a great keyboard with brilliant styles and great sequencer. By the way,the Pa500 has a 'dual sequencer' but it looks like one of these boring and useless ideas....I'd rather have one sequencer with more features.

Wow,sorry for the long post,got carried away

The model you ruled out is the best style edit/creation instrument of your preference models...and also is the best on board sequencer of all...Maybe you should re think your first impression...The Yamaha will work poorly with the SD-2...and the XG is far from great..it only conforms with the way Yamaha needs it's sound engine to work with sequences (SMF)..and poorly at that..

The Korg handles sequences (SMF) much better than the Yamaha..but not nearly as well as the Roland model you mentioned..

I am just given you food for thought ..based on my own experiences..

Hi. I have a pa500 and a Psr1500 (the previous model to the s700). 90% of Korg sounds are very good. Only sweet, cool, live and Mega sounds are worth in Yamaha, Xg sounds are very bad. If you want a very good controller take the Pa500 (not good key feel though). If you want plenty of styles take the Yamaha.

Victor

Buy psr if you want muti style support, better sax and guitars, and OS.


Buy Korg is you want more on board sequencer editing.


if you use mainly styles - go with Yammy.

Hi,
I've got all the 3 brands that you mentioned, mine are sd2, pa800, psr1500.

First up, sd2 is really designed to work with a pc. Doesn't have any buttons or screen, so you need a controller that will send the correct bank & program changes.

Tried it with my psr 1500 initially, it made for a lousy controller keyboard.
I couldn't put in the bank changes for melody parts, so, I was stuck with using the default GM bank.
I was able to use the sd2 as a sound module for psr style parts, but there was no way of choosing which tracks were internal ( psr sounds) & which tracks were played by the sd2.
Basically every style I wanted to use became a user style, because of the editing required. XG mapped drum tracks aren't good when played on a GM module, they'll need some remapping..

My Korg PA800 on the other hand is a good controller.
I was able to put in the bank & program changes for melody. I could individually pick which tracks used internal or external sounds.
But if I literally wanted the sd2 to be the sole soundsource for the korg styles, again the styles would need to be edited.

Before selling my sd1+, I tried using the sd2 as the soundsource for the sd1 styles.
Even they would have required some tweaking.

Try & get a keyboard that you like the sounds as well as the styles on. Trying to use an alternate soundsource for "style parts", means there's usually a certain amount of tweaking involved.

I used 3rd party software to edit the styles on my psr for use with the sd2.
Can't remember to what extent you can edit onboard styles in a psr, haven't used it in ages.
On my PA800 all style editing can be done on the keyboard itself, though I do use a pc for certain things.

I don't bother midi-ing the sd2 to the korg anymore, more than happy with the internal sounds.
Only thing I may consider down the track is a vsti module.

best wishes
Rikki

best wishes
Rikki

Hi,

I'm a fan of both Yamaha & Korg, so not biased in any way. What I can tell you is that there are more excellent Yamaha styles available for free than for any other brand. At least 5 - 10% of that database (of way over 40 000 styles) are extremely good.

I have had my old PSR3000 now for more than four years, and I am still very much in love and elated by it. Must say, I NEVER use my onboard styles anymore as the newer ones are just so much better.

Something to consider.

Henni

hey Fran,thank you. I posted another reply but for some reason the Firefox browser has a problem with the forum. Don't you love it when it happens...

Thanks for the heads about about the sd2 / Yamaha combination....the last thing I want is to spend a lot of money and not get the result...

hey guys,thanks to all for the response,good thing I came here before forking out money.

Vagro, I didn't know that Yamaha XG sounds were so bad,so maybe I was overrating them before buying.

jamman, more onboard sequencer features is really what I am looking for,although I do like to use nice styles. I find that they are a good orchestration study

rikki,wow thanks for the heads up about the SD2! I really like the sounds of the SD2 but if I had to waste too much time with tweaking,I'd rather stay with the computer setup.
I am very bummed out about the SD2 underfeatures because it seemed to be the only GM module to cut it with the sounds. As an owner of Eastwest sample libraries (Symphony Gold and Goliath) I am pretty hard to please with the sounds now,because the Eastwest stuff sounds incredible (but had tons of problems with running the programs,which is why I have had it with computers,at least as far as composing demos ,go) .

BTW, tell me,do the GM bank in the SD2 sounds like the main presets? I mean,does the GM bank has the same quality sounds as the other internal banks of the SD2? Or is the GM bank just the average stuff as found on other GM modules?

If the GM bank on the SD2 sounds as good as it's main sounds,I might consider to just using the GM bank,if no tweaking needs to be done.

Or am I just refusing to accept things the way they are...namely, ,that the SD2 is not a very good choice as standalone module for these keyboards?
Your advice about ketting a keyboard with the sounds I like,is very good. I don't really want to spend 400 euros on the SD2 only to be disappointed about the setup later. Ketron should definitely put a darn display on their module!

Another possibility that I am considering is getting a Ketron x4 (it seems to have a decent sequencer),and a cheap weighted-keys keyboard from M Audio.

Do the Korg PA800 has the quality keys as found on their old Triton keyboards?
Thanks Rikki for the great advice aboout the SD2, I was almost buying it yesterday because I thought it would work great with any keyboard and with no fuss.

I have had SD2's for some time and find the GM soundset to be of equal quality to the rest. I find them to be excellent, but have to use my controller kb t access the other banks.
Bernie

The Ketron SD4 http://www.ketron.it/prodotti/index.asp?idTipo=2 is the SD2 (2 of them inside) with controls available on the module itself.
Hope this helps

Bill

hey Bernie,if the GM bank's quality is equal to the other banks,that's great because with the arranger I only intend to work with GM and midi files.

The role of the Ketron SD2 would be basically to play GM sounds of high quality -while- I am composing. I think mine is a good guess that the GM sounds of the SD2 are superior to any arranger keyboard? Would you agree with that?

Can you use at least the GM bank of the SD2 without tweaking anything ,and does your arranger recalls the correct patches from the module? From Rikki's reply and yours, I seem to understand that the Ketron is not good if you want to use all the sounds,but there are no problems if you use the GM bank with an arranger. Am I correct?Thanks

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 07-17-2009).]

Abacus,yes the SD4 seems to have what the sd2 does not have,but it's more bulky and costly.
Ketron gear seems to be very good but they seem to make people pay for every button they put on it...

Your money would be better spent investing into a modern computer set-up! No arranger or module on the market will sound as good as the East-West/Goliath collection.
In addition, most of the computer sequencers available today are 10 times more powerful than any arranger sequencer.

Computers are not flaky if the right hardware is used and setup properly!

Just my opinion!

Let me explain how I have used the SD2's. The first was used with a Midisport interface to play SMF's from my laptop. The second was controlled by my Axiom 61 controller. The SMF's were of better quality than my Echo soundcard and my Technics Kn7000. It was close to my Roland G70, but not quite(my subjective opinion only). It being multitimbral,it played all SMF's fine. Please note that I only use a controller to play lead sounds, which are excellent. My arrangers have not been used with the SD2, so I cannot say. I can tell you that LSB is not used, only MSB and program #'s. Rikki has more experience with other kb's.
Bernie

[This message has been edited by Bernie9 (edited 07-17-2009).]

true,but it's all theory,my friend. Computers will -always- be flaky,no matter what you have or what is your experience.
In almost 10 years of using them,I have seen it for myself. You will always get problems because new stuff is always coming out and you want to get it in your computer. And that will likely create problems

Goliath sounds are killers,that's absolutely true,but with that also comes all the headache: error messages,and all that crap. Currently I cannot use it because it's not working well with my Edirol soundcard,which never gave me problems.

Now,you get all these obstacles when you want to just turn the damn thing on and study and compose. How good is that?
Computers are great,but not for composition. Only to produce a killer product. I will do better composing with a Yamaha keyboard,write all the parts,then export them as a midi file,get them into Cubase or whatever,and substitute the sounds with Goliath sounds. But for writing the music,forget it.....I have had it. Sometimes I am unable to study or practice at all because there's always something that won't work.
I have used Band In a Box,One Man Band....this stuff is not new to me. Hardware is more limited,but the paradox is that it makes you a lot more efficient. Instead of wasting hours figuring out why my ASIO drivers are not working,I could have learned something new,a new piece,a new music concept.

Just ask other users here,like Rikki,why he went back to hardware arrangers. Yes computer are incredibly powerful and ridicolously cheap these days. But they make you pay with stress and frustration. I was making more music 12 years ago with a Kurzweil K2000 and a Korg D12 recorder than with Goliath.
Just the sad truth,for me....

My computer setup is not weak at all....dual core and 2 gig or ram. Nowadays power is not a problem. But reliability and stability will always be.
I prefer to spend some money,have less impressive sounds,but when I turn the thing on,I am pretty sure it won't interrupt me or frustrate me with absurd errors of all kind.
Amen,brother.....

thank you Bernie. So you mean that the Roland G70 seems to sound better than the Ketron SD? wow

I had someone recommend a Roland SC-88 VL module....anybody here knows how good or bad it is?

If you are looking for a module, check out Roland's sonic-cell!

Hi,
if I understand correctly, what you're hoping to do is, use the keyboard to record your composition ( using styles??) then use sd2 as soundsource for the final recording?? instead of using the keyboards internal sounds, even for the style tracks?

The sd2 won't play back the psr drum tracks 100% correctly without remapping some of them, velocity of certain drum types may need adjusting also. If you download the Technical data manuals & do a comparison of the drum maps , you'll see what I mean.
Mainly the drum notes below note 35( bass drum). GM & XG differs, and a number of psr styles use these drums.

I was actually midi-ing the sd2 to my psr in style play mode, not in sequencer mode.
Do a thorough check of the midi specs in sequencer mode . I've never used the sequencer, maybe the options in sequencer mode are better than in style mode.

Either way, if you're hoping to just get on with composing & not having to tweak sounds & remap drums etc, ( for the style tracks )you'd really be better off buying a keyboard with sounds & styles you like & get on with your composing.

I've spent a bit of time converting some of my psr styles across to korg format( from a midi file), & discovered some of the pitfalls.

best wishes
Rikki




[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 07-17-2009).]

thanks,but I am looking for a GM module that will work well with my keyboard,not with my PC.

also,sonic-cell seems to be pretty expensive and has features that I don't need (audio interface; for that I will have the Tascam multitracker)

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 07-18-2009).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 07-18-2009).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 07-18-2009).]

hi Rikki,yes I want to do quick demos of my compositions using styles: the idea is to come up with the structure ,the themes,the chords,the parts,record them,and to have a demo of my idea,that I can listen back to and judge if the idea is worth pursuing further.
I think that this way is an huge time saver...instead of programming everything from scratch (the drums,etc, the so-called 'Linear sequencing' ) the arranger would provide for me an immediate rhythm section,just so that I make a demo and listen back to. That's what I always liked about arrangers even though I have never played or worked in hotels or piano bars (which I think can be nice too! )

With the Ketron SD, I was hoping that I would be able to use it with an arranger ,while I compose,just so that I am playing in real time with the best possible sounds,as this influences a lot the way you are improvising the parts,the dynamics you put into.

then,once I have the complete tracks done ,with all the main parts,I would import them as a midi file in my PC. I would substitute all the sounds with the sounds from Eastwest,for the best possible results (I might even leave the original Ketron sounds,as most sounds seems to be very good. ) Then I don't care if the computer gives me errors or if it crashes....I would be still happy because the music has been written efficiently. From then on,it would only be a matter of doing the final editing tweaks (I am planning to do much of the editing with the arranger as well. Less features,but more efficiency because there are no interruptions or problems).

So the arranger,the Tascam DP and the Ketron SD would be my main writing source,and use the PC only after the composing has been written.

But now I am seriously considering what you have said about just getting the sounds from the keyboard and thus getting the best possible sounding keyboard I can get. It makes sense because it saves lots of time and effort.

Just a thought
Instead of moving the computer into the background, have you thought of trying Livestyler http://www.live-styler.de/home/ which will give all the arranger functions with all your existing sounds.

Bill

IF, you have a Korg PA...then you could nicely add the SD-2 or SD-4 for adding more/different voices, especially lead voices. OAND/OR you can add PC baed sounds using soft synths (East West Golath as example)

With the Korg...you can setup a user voice slot with external mode...specifying the full MIDI bank/program change data and saving it. Then, when you select a performance, OTS etc. (or even voices in a styles using user sounds) the external module will work beautifully!

I do it all the time. Its a beautiful thing.

When I had my T2, I called Yamaha support to ask about how to use a external module(how to do bank/program change) and I WAS TOLD...NO Can't do it and I DID'NT NEED THAT!

I guess that's one difference between a PRO arranger and a home keyboard. Yamaha markets as home keyboards and that's fine by me...unless you want the PRO features not in a home keyboard. Sold the T2...now have a PA2XPRO.

I sure liked a lot about the Yamaha...but I wanted some of the features in the Korg more.

Before you buy any of them...spend he time to see which one you like the sound of and which features are the most important to you!

Lee S.

Hi,
I'm not a pro, just a hobbyist for the last 20 years or so.
I've literally had dozen's of workstations, synths, samplers & keyboards.
Wasted many years trying to get better sounds for my keyboards by adding various modules. I got caught up in the technology rather than the music.

To me it makes sense what you're trying to do. Use the keyboard to create your compositions, then use East West as substitute for sounds. I'd really think hard about putting the sd2 into the mix.
I doubt the sound quality of the sd2 would match the quality of software samples.
Maybe with a keyboard that has quality sounds, you'd be able to leave some of the style tracks in your final mix instead of replacing the lot with samples.
The yamaha's have the mega voices, korg has rx voices ( velocity switched), plus in guitar tracks you get fret noises etc. SD2 won't replicate mega or rx voices.

I hadn't fully realized what the korg rx voices were. I used to happily increase the velocity of a track, when converting a psr style to korg. PSR tracks are recorded at a much lower velocity than korg styles.
Eventually realized I shouldn't use RX sounds in a style, unless the style is recorded from scratch.
I'd used some sort of an RX funk guitar in the conversion. Didn't realize that a velocity of just say 40 triggered a totally different sound to velocity of just say 60 & sound changed again at an even higher velocity.
If that RX sound had been used in an onboard korg style, & I played that style via the sd2, it would have sounded all wrong. To me, some style tracks are best played by the keyboard they were written for, unless you decide to rerecord them in the actual composition or rerecord the style track to suit the soundsource.
( Korg style editing functions are really good)

Anyway good luck with your keyboard quest.


best wishes
Rikki



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 07-18-2009).]

Hi Abacus,yes it's an interesting program,but for that I already have One Man Band, which I think is better because it has a sequencer as well. Regardless,the solution is not getting another program,but to change approach entirely. Just to give an idea, I have tried again yesterday to compose with the PC and fired up One Man Band. I went into Sequencer mode,recorded,and what happened? Only the backing track was recorded,not the main melody that I played.

I didn't even bother to write emails,log into forums,ask people why OMB would not record the main part,etc,as it would take me another bunch of hours,not to mention the energy....

And I bet that if I even take 3 hours and fix that problem,another problem will appear.
Goliath is great,yeah,but only the sounds are great. The program is terrible. it's not a stable program at all. It frequently causes Reaper to crash. The support staff is useless. In fact,I bought it merely because Eastwest were doing a 'buy 1 get 1 free' promotion,so I got Symphony Orchestra Gold for free. So I would not say it was a complete waste of money,soon or later I'll get it to work ,but not to write music with. This stuff is just not up to the task,unless you are Hans Zimmer and have your personal techs that will fix things for you...

It would be all fantastic if it worked well,but sadly,it doesn't...this stuff is only great to produce music that has already been previously written,not to write music with. Unless you accept constant frustration and stress....I think life is too short to spend behind computer problem-solving.



[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 07-19-2009).]

hi Rikki,thanks, well you say you are not a pro,but if you've been using this stuff for 20 years,I wouldn't say that you aren't...

Actually your thoughts about the SD2 really helped me because I didn't know things would be so fussy. I will just use the internal sounds of whatever I am using.

By the way,I just bought a GEM Genesys XP expander that I found used but as new,for about half the price of a new one.
Man,I feel like I am breathing again. I am currently using it with my EMu x-board 61 which is not bad (semi-weighted keys) but I think I'll now buy a weighted-keys M audio controller ,which does not cost a lot.

The Genesys has very good sounds,at first I could only see the main 128 presets and thought 'ok good,but that's it?' . Then I found a sort of hidden menu where I can get a lits of about 1400 sounds! Some of them are called 'Real' (realguitar,etc) and are pretty good for a guy who owns two Eastwest libraries!

The Genesys even has a sampler,at first I thought that a mere 32 mb for sampling would be next to useless,but I even sampled a violin sound from Eastwest and shrank it to about 20 mb ,lol
It took hours ,though,but it can be done!

I am feeling like a musician again. I just press 'record' in the sequencer,and I listen back my ideas. And no crashes and stupid errors happened! Brilliant!

I might still want to get a Korg PA arranger,though,as what you said about it , made my head buzz....eh eh

thanks ,I really enjoy these forums

Hi ,
congratulations.
One of the few brands I haven't owned over the years, only because they weren't as readily available here in Aust. as Korg, Yamaha, Roland.

I wish some of the other companies would go back to producing arranger modules.

The Gem forum on Synthzone , doesn't appear to be very active anymore, but there are a number of users floating round General Arranger forum, so if you have any questions, maybe post on General forum instead.

As for me, I'm a very content Korg PA800 user nowadays, PA2X would have been nice, but I wanted the portability of inbuilt speakers.

I enjoyed the couple of years or so I spent using software arrangers. I had my little setup of dell laptop, omb, & soundfonts
( for style tracks only )working reasonably well. I was slowly putting together xg mapped drums soundfont, to save me having to edit the psr style drum tracks.
My laptop died, had to be replaced with an early dell dual core & my headaches began using the setup that used to run perfectly on my old pc.

I bought a Ketron SD1+, poor style editing functions, so didn't end up suiting me.
( I think that's when I started to check about Gem's)

Bought PSR 1500 instead of a Tyros, because I wasn't sure Yamaha would suit me 100% either.
Bought SD2 ( for OMB ) just in case I sold my SD1, mainly for the Live Drums ( they're close but not 100% identical to SD1 Live Drums, not the same quality either)

And then for me, 3rd time lucky, I bought the PA800.

Hope the Gem works out for you.

If you decide to check into Korgs a bit further, I'm usually floating about here & on the Korg Forums.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by arranger_yes_pc_no:
[B]

Hi Rikki,

I totally agree about module arrangers! I am a module arranger guy,even wrote to Roland a while ago asking to do some full-flight module arranger.

The Genesys is great,too bad that the company closed,as I would have liked to see more updates for the system. It has a fantastic screen and I am really LOVING the immediacy of hardware again: you just turn it on and get on with your stuff. You don't have to kill yourself with always new problems.

I understand what you said about your laptop dying and from then on everything started to go bad with the setup. That's exactly what happened to me: I have changed system (to a better one),reinstalled everything, and nothing seemed to work anymore! Just mental...they give problems suddenly,for no apparent reason.

I am 36 and just can't afford to live the rest of my life solving silly PC problems.

Genesys: welcome in my life! You are a Genesis for me indeed,lol

Thanks Rikki for mentioning the GEM forums,good idea. Best wishes,Salvo

I tried to download a manual of the PA800 but can't find it anywhere...

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 07-20-2009).]

Here you go
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa800_man.html?en

Hope this helps

Bill

thanks,but I can't seem to download it....I have actually tried before writing my post,sorry about the confusion

Hi,
did you try it as a right click
"save target as"
if you do get it working, also download
Advance Edit Manual,
it's the info on sound editing,
sampling &
"Groove" files.
Just in case you don't know what these are,
you load an audio drum sequence (wav), it splits it, you can then save it as a drumkit ( haven't tried that)
or you can use the audio file as a drum track in a style or assign it to a multipad.
I've only tried it with a few swish brush files. I don't want to keep loading & deleting audio files, the PA800 only has 64mb's memory ( not upradeable) The pa2x memory can be upgraded.

If you don't have any luck downloading PA800 manual, maybe try PA2x.
There's a comparison list of PA2X & PA800.
Basically styles are the same, PA2X just has a few extra goodies, extra sliders, expandable memory, mp3 recorder ( optional in PA800) 76 keys.

best wishes
Rikki

thanks Rikki, I'll do that.

hey Rikki,here's a decent demo that I made of the Genesys XP,have a listen,the sounds are really good I think. Great saxes and guitars for example,although there's a lot more great sounds that are not in the demo,for example the solo violin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-o_Y_BaEp0

Hi ,
thank you.
I'll have a listen.
Haven't seen one before.
best wishes
Rikki