Diki, I wonder - with the opinions you hold regarding arrangers and players - how and why you use an arranger yourself. I know you use some SMF, but what about styles? Do you rely mainly on the drum and bass tracks? I know you often play with other musicians, how does your arranger status mix with that? Where do you see yourself fitting into this Arranger spectrum?

Cass first chance you get a few dollars ahead just take the plunge with the PA800. I did based on some recommendations here. I don't regret it. Plus that's one of the few boards you haven't owned I think you'll like what you hear.

Hi Cass,
I luv my PA800 also. Probably for different reasons to the others.
I luv it's style editing/creation functions & the pads.

Haven't owned a korg arranger since early 90's ( i2 & i5m ).


best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephenm52:
[B]

Cassp.... although a large percentage of my work this year is with live musicians, I have used the arranger enthusiastically since the days of the RA90 (and before that, home organs). It's not that I am against them in any way, it is just that, while I realize their usefulness in making a solo act sound band-like, and their potential for making a solo career lucrative, I still refuse to delude myself that, when I use an arranger, I am playing with something BETTER than a live band. Perhaps it is the musicians I get to play with (one of my current drummers has two Grammy's!), perhaps it is my love of improvised music (even if it is simply smaller aspects of a worked out arrangement), perhaps it is my love of playing fully two handed with no regard for the chores of mere chord input (while a machine gets to play the fun stuff!), and perhaps it is the realization (I am not sure some of us here get this one) that for every peeve about working with others, they quite likely have one about ME! I simply can't make myself believe that they are all dead weight with less musical value than a MACHINE.

When need and opportunity arrive, I have no problem using said machine, and proudly, too... but when need and necessity arrive, I don't have to come out with absurd statements like 'better than any Berklee grad' to make myself feel better about it.

Why do I still use an arranger at all? Well, apart from the obvious, it's also just about the only gear out there with a drum machine with four main patterns and six fills that is easy to use live (for when you have a full band minus the drummer, or minus drummer and you do LH bass), and even in a live band situation, it is BY FAR the easiest type of keyboard to use on 'pick up' gigs, where you never know what sounds you might need for a song... Piano at the top and organ at the bottom, or piano at the bottom, organ at the top? On most WS's, swapping those two around, or creating a registration from scratch (with effects routings and key touch sensitivities) is simply out of the question on the gig, while you play... Multiply that by EVERY song in a set (it could happen! ), and you have a clear superiority in an arranger. They are DESIGNED for live use, with little compromise for the sake of studio flexibility. Couple that with, at least on our G70's, a no compromise 76 keyboard action and a WS quality (read durable) construction, easy to use touch screen and slider control, and you have a MUCH better live band keyboard than just about any WS I have played (and I have played 'em all ).

I have no beef with the arranger at all, only with those that are so easily convinced that they somehow have something BETTER than real musicians. If they aren't playing with those that show an arranger up for the stiff, mechanical, unmusical (when, oh when, are arrangers ever going to figure out how to do smooth voice leading on chords?) machine it actually is, I am sorry. It is pretty obvious they don't know what they missed (or were oblivious to it when they DID have it).

The trend towards arrangers simply using RECORDINGS of real musicians only seems to prove my point. The machine is hitting limits that only those same 'dead weight' musicians can provide the content to truly fool the listener. One would think, if the arranger truly IS better than real musicians, there would be no need for this at all!

So.... no apologies for using an arranger. I love 'em! But at least I don't need to go and apologize to my drummer, for implying for one minute that the machine is better than he is!

Diki - very nicely and clearly stated. I think I understand you and your opinions much better now. I know from my own experience that my opinions of keyboards and features changes with who with and how often I'm playing. Having not played regularly for almost two years now, my needs and wants are much different than when the trio was playing regularly. Using an arranger in a band setting was definitely different for me than playing OMB. Thanks for clearing thing up for me.

Ya gotta give it to Diki...he's articulate and passionate about what he does, musically.

I am in a place right now where I have to play arrangers. They're OK, but never even close to replacing real musicians for the style I want to play.

They're great tools, and right now, I wouldn't be working without them. And, even before my accident, they're an economic necessity for some of my jobs.

Again, I believe that a person who's primary focus is entertainment would prefer an arranger. A person who primarily is a musician would prefer to play with other musicians.

The unspoken interplay in a free form mode between musicians of equal skill and creativity is the highest of highs. Trading fours, modulations on the fly, medlies...playing off of each other...brief allusions to other tunes is amaising, but only works in certain situations.

I guess if you put a big "FOR ME" in front of the opposing posts, it's easy to see both are right for the individual.

I see Jim's points, and his approach works for him. That's not the way I do it, but that doesn't mean I'm right and he's wrong. And, if he and I or Diki and I have a chance to play together, I believe we'd have a BALL!

The key is to find a way to play in a manner that brings you and your audience joy.

After all, isn't that why we're all here?

Play on, however you choose to do it.

Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 07-23-2009).]

It would be my honor to play with just about any of you out there on SZ... But that's my thing. I always look forward to playing with other musicians (of all abilities). Playing with other musicians' MACHINES, though, that's a different thing!

If I ever get in your neighborhood, Russ, you can count on it that I will be dropping in... And you ever make it down to my neck of the woods, I am going to expect a call

Diki, you can count on it! You'd certainly be welcome! I need to get to Florida later this year on some family business. Be great if I could coax Chas to come along.


Russ

Diki, I'm in the Clearwater area for the last week of Feb and the first two weeks of March. Unfortunately, that's still a pretty long drive up to you.

Yep.... sometimes I think I live in 'a galaxy far, far away...'