One question. How, when, why, where did you guys learn English? I think it's amazing, incredible, astounding, that we have so many members from around the globe that are able to converse on a conversational level (or higher)in English. I also think it's shameful that Americans are so monolingual in this global community in which we now live. It's no accident that the international language of aviation is English; if it weren't, we'd never find enough commercial pilots to fly international. Almost every foreign leader or head-of-state speaks passable English but when is last time we had a president that spoke anything other than English. Shouldn't we be embarrassed by that. Are we so arrogant that we don't see a need to learn a foreign language or are we simply too dumb. I feel that this situation needs to be addressed by our public school system. I think a reasonable proficiency in at least one other language should have to be demonstrated before graduation from college.

Since most of us are past the age of having school-age kids, perhaps we could stress the importance of this for our grand kids. What do you think?

chas

Yeah, yeah, I know. This belongs at the Bar.

At highschool (looong time ago.. in the seventies) we had lessons in Dutch, English, German and French. Most of the kids drop the French language and continue the others.

Many (most of the) 'Dutchies' (born after 1950) are able to speak at least two foreign languages.

The Dutch (!) company I work for has English as the preferred language because of the many nationalities of emloyees.

International TV-progams, movies and internet make we hear-, see-, think-, read-or write English several times a day.

btw This is the bar isn't it ?

English is the language of my country..it has served me well...

You aren't suggested I brush up (as in learn)...on my Italian..

If you folks want to talk to me...it will have to be English!!

Now where is that Pilot's manual I was reading..

Hi Chas,
I think a number of the Europeans actually learn English as part of their schooling.

I have 2nd cousins in Austria & Germany and they speak better English than I do.

The big problem is, what 2nd or 3rd language does one learn. There's 100's of them. Here in Aust. during my school days, if you wanted to learn a 2nd language, it was either French or German ( the latter I can still sort of speak & understand).

Dad's Croatian, mum's Austrian ( I was too),
husband's Australian, daughter in law is Italian. We're a mixed bunch. haahaa

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cgiles:
[B]

Thank you for a very interesting thread for me.
I was educated at Grammar school in England and studied German French Latin and , of course, English (Language and Literature).
Although I always wanted to communicate with other non-english (I actually hate the word 'foreigners'),my teachers were wonderful at their job and therefore encouraged my passion.This was 1943 to 1949 and most of my teachers were good at their chosen profession. I fear that is not always the case today.
It is therefore not always easy to study another language in school...my son, daughter,grandson and granddaughter have confirmed this.....
There is a certain laziness to learn another language when your first language is english wherever you are in the world simply because english is so widely used in business and commerce, songs,computers,aviation, and are these not the most important communicators we have!.
In my own case , I also have spent a lot of time studying russian,italian,spanish,arabic and even chinese , simply because I am an avid 'learner'of information. This has enriched my life enormously by reason of allowing me in to the makeup of our non-english friends .
I fear that english, however, will continue to be the number one language in the world where most needs are.
In my case, I have a keen interest in my fellows and by travelling around a few countries I have found that we are all basically the same human beings except that we use different languages.
Long live foreign languages and accents and
dialects!!!!


------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

PSR9000

I started EFL in 1972. It was in fact my seventh language as I already spoke Dutch, German, French, Flemish, Afrikaans and a local dialect (a mixture of Dutch, French, German. It's not a pitch-tone language but a tone language) Dialects really are a breed apart (going off-topic but necessary) as they are the true mother tongue and are the most important factor that differentiate region and population. Your next-door neighbor, e.g., will stick to his own dialect if he lives in a different village than yours. If you're talking about "ants" you might refer to them as "zeikwurms" and he as "amzeiksels". Or "de put" (u as in uh) and "chabornage" if talking about coalmines. (In French: mine de charbon). You would have no trouble using my dialect in Bavaria and be understood as it is closer to Bavarian dialects then Hochdeutsch.

I practiced English by thinking in the language, reading and rereading novels (first novel: Travels with Charley by John Steinbeck). Dictionaries were used only as a last resort. Personally, I find an idiomatic dictionary to be more useful.
EFL was also the most important factor in me having penpals on every continent. I had nearly 100 penpals so I spent several hours a day on writing letters. I had the pleasure of visiting a great number of them and even now we still remain friends. Oral practice is very important but I find reading even more so. What you pick up through reading will greatly enhance your vocabulary, grammar, comprehension, plus countless cultural facts. To be truly fluent one has to be culturally literate.

My first step, when learning a new language, is to get to know the phonetics. I teach Phonics and it takes approximately two to three months to turn non-readers (6-year olds) into fluent readers of English. I've been told by native English speakers that my students read better than most junior high school students of English speaking countries. Once students can read the learning factor is so much easier as they can actually study their lessons at home while those that can't have to rely purely on memory. Rote learning also hampers one's learning as it doesn't focus on expressing oneself and the latter is what language is all about.

I picked up Italian during high school as I had more Italian classmates than local ones. Actually I did it to impress Italian girls (worked like a charm). Later on I studied Spanish and Maltese (lived in Malta). While in the Armed Forces I had a course in Swahili which I used in Shaba and Kolwezi during the uprisings in Zaire (Congo).

It is only fair to say that when I moved to Taiwan learning Chinese (Mandarin) would be on top of my list. In Taiwan I picked up conversational Japanese (put to use on my trips to Japan) and Taolog (I have lots of Pinoy friends plus useful when I was in the Philippines) and now I am still busy with Lao and Thai (closely related so killing two birds with one stone). Oh, and I speak enough Taiwanese, Indonesian, Malay and Vietnamese to get by. Enough to ask for directions, order food and have simple conversations.

Mandarin Chinese is now my first language while English is the second. No wonder since I've been in the Far East since 1980. My aim is to make Lao my first language but that will take some time. My son understands Lao, Thai, English, Chinese, French, German and Dutch as I use all these languages to communicate with him. And no, it doesn't confuse him one bit. Nothing is forced upon him. I may ask him in German and he may reply in Chinese. I think it's cool.

Culture is defined as �the way of life of a group of people including that group�s language, music, foods, holidays, and beliefs�. English is the international language but that shouldn't deter people from learning another language. Learning another language will gain you respect among the locals while complaining that the locals don't speak English only leads to you being seen as arrogant. I've never been to a country where I didn't involve myself in picking up the rudimentaries of the local tongue. This alone has opened many doors and lasting friendships. One earns respect by giving respect. This is so true when it comes to learning a foreign language.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-11-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-11-2009).]

I have no interest in learning things I don't need. Sure, it would be cool. I actually took 2 semesters of Spanish, and 2 of German. But I wasn't interested, and I've since forgotten most of what I knew because I don't have any reason to remember.

I have music from all over the world, so I'm fascinated by hearing other languages, but have no passion for learning any.

Internationals learn English because they know its utter usefulness in the world. That's how things have become, no getting around it. It's become a common ground language. The prestige of being able to show off my vast intellect when traveling abroad might be nice, but no practical reason other than that.

I haven't posted anything in a while now, but I will answer your question.

I have never learned English in school. That is why my English suffers sometimes when it comes about getting the right form of tenses, etc. But nevertheless, I always liked it and find it to be useful for my work - most charities in Romania are from UK, also my pastor at the church is english language speaker, so... many reasons.

Still, I should mention - and probably this is the main factor - all the movies that are on TV in my country are subtitled, not voice doubled. That REALLY helps many young people and not only to get to understand and speak a little bit of English.

If english wouldn't be the international language, something else would. I believe in the Windows, Internet and Social Networks era, English really become the tools of choice. It's also because it is not super-hard to get it. I dare you learn two phrases in Romanian!

Hi Chas.
Wow !!!,
Taike, I am astounded, what a profile.
Oh!! by the way, can you play keyboard too? (joke, mate).
Seriously,I am impressed by the people who post on this site who obviously do not have English as a first language, and are able to be conversant with everyone, and particularly in their knowledge of technology of KB's and computers, which I lack considerably, but I am dismayed by others who have English as a first language advantage, and are content to take the lazy approach without proof reading their posts,or using reasonable grammar, which might help the afore-mentioned posters to improve their English skills.
Oh! but then I am a purist and traditionalist. Don't ever play golf with me.
Ray

------------------
Ray The Saint

Whilst I can order beer in a number of european languages I'm "strictly english" after that.

I find this a matter of embarrassment on holidays in that I am forced to hope that people in other countries have taken the time and effort to learn my language when I clearly haven't done that same for anyon else. I could blame my education given that I had to choose between German or Biology, Latin or Chemistry. sciences 2 languages nil but we still had to do French and my French is still total merde.

Of course having recently had justifiable excuses to holiday in Australia and Florida it's still a bit of a shock to find that the mother tongue has taken a bit of a bashing. There were still times when I had no idea what people were talking about even though it sounded like english most of the time!

On serious note I have nothing but admiration for those who post here in their non-native tongue.

Taking due consideration of the comment above "without proof reading their posts"

I'd like to point out that the phrase "on serious note" should read "on a serious note".

Funny how you only see the spelling and grammar mistakes after you press the send button! And I honestly thought I'd checked everything. I think human nature is that you read what you want to read rather than what you actually write.

I've learned english at school, but most of the knowledge (beside grammar which I owe to my professor in last two classes of higher school) I got from speaking with foreign tourist, (privilege when living in famous tourist destination).

At the time I was in elementary school (some 30 years ago) we started learning one foreign language (at first only english, later german, french, italian...) at 4th grade. Now kids learn two languages, starting first on in 2nd grade.

Beside english, I do know some italian, french and german (in that order), and of course, my 'native language' croatian.

Hi

In Denmark we have a long tradition of learning foreign languages. We simply need to as Denmark is a small country and Danish is only spoken by app. 5,000,000 people.

All children must learn two languages: English and German in school from app. age 10 to age 16. Later (in high school) French, Spanish, Russian and some more languages are optional. In high school and university many foreign language books are used.

Besides this the Danish television shows a lot of English/American soaps and films - and a few German, French etc. - and these are shown in the original form with Danish subtitles.

And as you probably know the majority of popular music is in English.

All this means that we have all got a basic training in school in English; and we keep this active be hearing English all the time.

This means that most Danes understand English, many speaks English and many writes English fairly. ;-)

J�rgen http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha

Very true!
I remember taking a crash course in Arabic......1 week of intensive 16 hour days!........and then went on my export trip to a customer in Jordan, where I had been manytimes before with only english as our common ground.Whilst we were talking, my customer's Aide brought him his lunch on a plate and asked him (in arabic , of course) if he wanted a knife and fork.
I picked up on this and asked my customer if he had decided whether he wanted a knife and fork!
He was astounded and suddenly really warmed to me and my sales talk!!!!
We are all the same.
When somebody takes the trouble to say a couple of words in our language, we may sometimes smile at his accent but really appreciate his efforts.!!!




------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

PSR9000

Great example, Eddie.

When abroad you should adapt to the locals, not the locals to you.

Most of us speak at least 3 or more languages, i personally speak 6 languages the same way
i am talking to you now...if you ask me how i did it i still have no clue even today...in school
i took Russian classes so i had no contact with English at the time, i came to USA in 1997 but
already spoke english, how? I have no clue how i learnt, only from computers and movies i
guess but the story is...i am Turkish who was born in Yugoslavia, correctly Macedonia.
At the age of 5 I HAD to speak 4 languages...Turkish, at home we spoke it, Serbian, it was the
official language of Yugoslavia, Macedonian, i had to cuz i was in Macedonia and school was
in Macedonian and i lived in a town where everybody was Albanian. At the age of 5 i had to
speak all those 4 languages and i did. Then i went on to learn German (i lived there) and at
the end had to learn English...now i am getting into Greek and i am getting pretty good at it.
Every language that i speak i can also read and write same like here in English.

...and yess...i grew up listening to READY TO ROCK!!!

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 08-11-2009).]

Chas,
Interested in your thoughts here. Are wee too arrogant or too dumb? After all, those are the only 2 possibilities you offered up. So which is it?
If we're too dumb, is that why people world wide have found it necessary to learn English? "let's learn English so we can deal with the dumb English speakers of the world." Obviously there was a lot to gain by dealing with the dumb Americans, otherwise some other language spoken by smart people would have become the dominant language of the world.

So far, I've heard that learning another language is good for impressing the locals, ordering at restaurants, and buying beer. Learning English is good for most business, education opportunities, and most popular entertainment. Have I missed something? Guess I'm among the arrogant. Even though I did briefly study 2 languages, and have since never found a real need for either of them.

Sure, I'm impressed that many of the internationals speak English, and some of them speak it very well. But I don't feel dumb or arrogant for not speaking another language. Guess I was a bit miffed with the slightly condescending attitude of the original post. I would like to see us coming back closer to the front in areas of math and science. American students are falling behind in a lot of areas lately, and the use of a foreign language in my opinion should not be at the top of the priority list.

Interesting post and I don't think that any person is too dumb too learn, though particuarly on this BBS I think any of us musicians are able to learn a foreign language since good ears help a lot with learning a foreign language

Personally I did learn french, german and english at highschool but also learned spanish (in fact I am writing from spain at the moment as I am on a holiday) and arabic by listening and trying.

My native language is obviously dutch.

Nice too see that most of you are still here by the way

Fred

Gosh Rory, I've been thinking of how to respond to you without causing a controversy. You must know that as far as I'm concerned, you are one of the most talented and accomplished musicians on this board. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're in lock step in all other areas, particularly politically. I have no problem with that. I strongly believe in a two-party system.

In answer to your question, YES, I do believe that it is arrogant to think that there is no need for us English speakers to learn another language. What are we saying? that WE hold all the marbles so if they want to play in our backyard, let THEM do all that language-learnin' and stuff. I guess we should be grateful that the citizens of all the non-English speaking countries don't feel that way. There would be very little global communications going on. How many times have we heard how some great piece of literature cannot be fully enjoyed or appreciated unless read in the original language. To say (or imply) that such things are unimportant does hint at a vein of anti-intellectualism that seems to run through a part of America's political landscape.

I do agree with you, though, on getting our students back on track in math and science. If we fail to do that, we WILL be learning the language of whoever wins that (math, science, technology) war.

And finally, NO, I don't think it is condescending to point out areas in which our country could do a better job. The pursuit of knowledge and the desire to improve our ability to communicate with the rest of the world certainly seem like worthwhile goals to me.

BTW, hope things are going well with your recent commercial pursuits. If talent and professionalism is what it takes, you should do well.

chas

I'm still not hearing a good reason to learn another language. Just that in your opinion it's arrogant not to. OK, if I want to understand an Italian song, I better know Italian, read a French poem, I better know French. Even if I knew 8 languages, there would still be a 9th piece of literature that I couldn't appreciate in its original tongue. So I'd still have that same problem.
But, the international people are not learning English just because they are interested to know what Nickelback's latest song is about. Is it just a random accident that English is the dominant language in the world? If it is just a random accident, then I probably would have learned whatever secondary language had turned out to be the dominant language of the world. I don't think I would have (just because I'm an arrogant American) refused to learn another language if I could point directly to some marked benefits for doing so. And even if I'm wrong about that, and I would have actually refused to learn the dominant language of the world, that's not the reality of the situation. These people have given us a lot of sound reasons as to why they learned English. I'm still waiting for an equally strong list of reasons to learn another language. All I'm hearing is it's arrogant not to.

I would like to learn Spanish because there will soon be as many Mexicans in the US as there are English. It would be fun to understand what they are saying about us in the Mexican Restaurants. I LOVE Tex-Mex food. It would be neat to order in Spanish.
I must say, most of them learn English pretty quickly.
I guess one way to learn would be to call almost any large company and press 2 for Espanol instead of 1 for English. Then you would have to learn before you could buy stuff or get help over the phone. By the way, I know that's silly.
I don't consider myself arrogant, just old and lazy. I'm glad my boys took several years of Spanish in school.
I'm jealous of multi-linqual people, but I guess not jealous enough for this old dog to learn new tricks.
Several members of my wife's family speak French (Cajun French) because they grew up hearing it. I used to know quite a bit of Native American (Osage) language which I learned from friends and relatives in Oklahoma, where I was raised. One of my Great Grandmothers was full-blood Osage. However as with many oppressed races, using her native tongue was discouraged and even ridiculed. I only remember the cuss words now. I can curse you in Osage and you won't know it!
It's too bad that not many of us were taught the languages of our ancestors. Only a few of us are truly from America. But few of the Americans I know of German or Italian ancestry still speak those languages after a couple of generations.
I'll bet back during the time of slavery that the Africans brought to the US had plenty to say to each other in their native language about their situation. I'm sure they were probably beaten if they were heard using their own language though. Sorry for the rambling, but this thread is truly interesting and actually inspiring to me.
Thanks Chas!
DonM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have looked back over this thread and the only mention of the word 'arrogant' seems to have come from yourself.......
I don't believe that any of us even alluded to arrogance.
As for looking for "an equally strong list of reasons.." does it really have to be only 'strong' before being considered..?surely, the whole is normally a sum of the components?..like respecting your fellow men and their language.

I think, though, chas, you underestimate the effectiveness of NEED when it comes to being multilingual. In the US, we have essentially an entire CONTINENT (or large portion of it, anyway) that speaks the one language. Most other parts of the world have neighboring countries closer than you to me that have entirely different languages. Those people NEED to talk to each other...

If and when the States have sufficient close neighbors with foreign languages (Spanish seems the first and most likely), you will see more emphasis placed on it. Until then, we can afford our 'arrogance', or as I prefer it, lack of NEED...

Perhaps you missed this? In the initial post?

Ummm, suprise, suprise. Gosh Diki, I was sure you'd come out on the side of intellectual accomplishment for it's own sake. Yes, I do understand the importance of NEED in this situation but I'm not sure that that is the only motivation. Many of our multilingual responders alluded to their introduction to (non-native) languages early in their educational journey. Young kids don't NEED to learn a new language; it just seems like more of a natural part of the educational process in other (non-English speaking) countries. I think DonM articulated the position of most of us very well; too old, too lazy, but secretly wishing we had another language or two under our belts. Ever walk into an IKEA and wonder what practically every other shopping couple was saying to each other? . The thing is; they sure as hell know what WE'RE saying.

Sooooo, is it anti-American to suggest that perhaps this is an area that America (and yes, other English-speaking countries as well - UK, are you listening?) could use some improvement? Is it anti-American to suggest that other languages and cultures might also have value in this world? that the Ten Commandments probably weren't written in English? Oh well, I didn't want this post to turn 'controversial'. Happily, the responses from ALL of our multilingual, international members (who chose to focus on the "how, when, why, where") was quite enlightening.

chas

..sorry, double post.

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 08-12-2009).]

A couple of reasons for my need to learn a foreign language:

-keep my independency (no need to constantly asking for assistance)

-dealing with the locals and not with expats as most expats do (if I want to meet Americans only I'd better go to the US)

-passport to becoming culturally literate

-to eat where locals and not expats or tourists eat, in other words, eat genuine local cuisine

-my wife's family respects me for learning their language and liking the food (they would respect me if I didn't but we wouldn't be able to talk with each other)

-to become more aware of local customs, beliefs, arts, etc.

-to adapt to their life style and not them to mine

-to show my wife and her family respect that I am willing to learn their language - my wife and I had to communicate in English which isn't our first language - but in many cases people refuse to study the language of their spouse - very common in Taiwan where the husband will only speak Chinese or Taiwanese to his Vietnamese wife but refuses to learn hers - she has to cook Taiwanese food and not Vietnamese - again, by learning to speak Lao I am showing my wife and Lao people respect

-to communicate with locals when I am in the countryside where it's not as common to find English-speaking people

-to watch the local news or listen to local radio broadcasts

-to read local literature/newspapers/magazines

-to do crossword puzzles or other wordgames

-to take non-language classes such as martial arts, art, cooking, etc.

-to go shopping and being able to ask what I need in case I don't find it

-to ask the way in case I get lost

-to ask which bus/train to take to my destination

-listen to what locals talk about

-to better understand my belief

-and many, many more

I studied English because it was on the curriculum but I didn't study it just because it's the international language. In fact, I was more interested in other languages (taken and still taking care of that now). Neither did I just study it to pass exams. There's absolutely no sense in that. But I did study it to communicate with English speaking people, such as Americans, Britons, Irish, Australians, etc. In fact, I always learn basic conversation in the language of the country of my destinationt. So if I were to visit Russia I'd take a language course in Russian.

So do those "Learn a Language in 30 Days" courses work? Yes, they do. In fact, you can finish such course in about a week if you're serious about it. These courses teach you the basics which is how diplomats learn a foreign language. You learn the basics and then build it up when you're in-country. You're given the foundation and you build it up at your own pace or leisure.

Some languages are harder to master but the only obstacle in learning a language is yourself. If you're interested you pick it up real fast, if you're not, forget about it.

But, I'd be very interested in knowing the benefits of NOT having to learn/or speaking a foreign language. And, please, don't refer to neighboring countries again. That's about the lamest excuse ever. Most Americans and Canadians would be speaking Spanish if it did matter.

(Now back into my hibernation cave.)



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-19-2010).]

I almost forgot, I speak Canadian very well.
DonM

Oh yeah, let's hear you say "eh".



chas

Why would you need to learn another language?

Well if you�re not leaving your own country or partaking in any of your countries other cultures, then there is no reason whatsoever.

However if you are going to a foreign country or wish to partake in your countries other cultures, then for no other reason then common courtesy.

Top 30 most spoken languages http://www.krysstal.com/spoken.html

Whomever comes over to the western hemisphere SHOULD be required to only speak what we do.Being multilingual makes as much sense as such nonsense as every state having completely different laws of the road you must have to learn to function in that state,what the what is the point except for showing off purposes.There are so many things a person already has to contend with that keeps life bogged down that i just what to say to the clerk at McDonalds:" ".. just gimmie a dam hamburger without pickles please"

Life SHOULD be the old:
KISS-Keep It Simple Stupids"

Our previous Prime Minister (Mr Blair) speaks fluent French. The French were famously gob-smacked the first time he went there and delivered his speech to them in their language.

We're not quite as bad as the Americans, but the "speak English or die" attitude of some of my countrymen abroad mortifies me. I am fluent in French and get by in Italian and Spanish. None of which were difficult to acquire, and from which I derive a great deal of pleasure, both while traveling and at home via foreign magazines, websites and TV channels.

Those who won't even make the effort are, in my experience, either intellectually lazy or xenophobic philistines.

Since the Western Hemisphere is comprised of North, South, and Central America, which "we" would that be? At the very least, English, French, and Spanish is spoken in the Western Hemisphere. Anyway, if we're going to make them learn the language before they're allowed to come over here, let's at least make sure they learn the rules of punctuation and grammar (not to mention spelling). In fact, that's not such a bad idea after all; we could start a whole new movement towards literacy in this country.

chas

I once dated a girl from Calgary. She didn't say eh, she said OOOOOHHH!

DonM

Oh dam,guess i'm a lazy xenophobic easterner living as a westerner.All humans speaking one language would be the common sense to life approach..it sure WOULD make user manuals a helluva alot thinner,thus saving many more trees,thus putting aL gORE
out on his arse.

Seamaster, I don't believe I'm intellectually lazy, so I must be one of those other things. I'll look it up one of these days when I get the time and energy.

Chas, I agree that we mostly BUTCHER the English language. I get so angry at TV announcers who do not know that their constant use of such phrases as The Reason Why, Continue On, Whether or Not, etc. are teaching our children to be illiterate.
Also, the confusion of the meaning of words such as affect and effect, accept and except,
appraise and apprise, comprise, oh the list is way too long.
One of my pet peeves is the misuse of words such as Hopefully. Hopefully is what is knows as a "dangling modifier".
To say "Hopefully they will arrive on time," isn't wrong, as long as you mean they will arrive feeling hopefull. It does NOT mean you hope they arrive on time.
Is this nit-picking? It has been misused so often nobody seems to be aware that it is incorrect, so is it?
I gotta run. Not really, but I need to be somewhere else right now. Hopefully, I'll make it on time.
DonM

If someone claiming to be gifted in areas of intellectually superiority cannot even grasp the jist of what i may be intentionally or unintentionally mispelling,i deem that 'intellectual' a dumbass..if i said to a 911 operator;
"git ovr hear,some1 iz robin my howse" and the operator says:"ok first of all i cannot crack your code of speech with my harvard degree,are you lazy or did you complete grade 12?"..if you cannot get the jist of things in life,Dr.Phil is your man of undiagnoised issues.Can't understand what someone is saying,then learn my 'forma't?
See, suddenly MY form of language of 'Jist' is deemed an unfit eastern of mega lazy proportions.Who's to say my speech is not really the commone sense approach to those wanting such a red taped babblisms.

Do we have many earth's here on Earth? No,just ONE Earth,why not one language..one Sun,one language,one life one speech..is my 'lazy' showing with all this text?Why is the language of jist under such racist attack by the under employed spell police?Some of the bothered should be forced to marry someone of a complete different tongue,wonder how that would work out for you,actually i don't.IF you seriously cannot understand 'jistism',i suspect an ego is the the roadway of superior scoldings of 'you must do it this way'as i have spoken.Jistism is a nice little way of saying 'no sheeple here'.



[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 08-12-2009).]

No, but something else is.

chas

Common sense is much like those who thought it impossible to fly.

-"Western Hemisphere" should be capitalized (proper noun)

-"you must have to learn" should be "have to learn" or "must learn"

-"dam" should be "damn"

-there should be a space after commas and periods

-"MacDonalds" should be "MacDonald's"

-"keep it simple stupids" should be "keep it simple, stupid"

-"what the what" should be "then what"

-"I just what to say" should be "I just want to say"

-"without pickles please" should be "without pickles, please"


The USA does not have an official language.



Phonetically correct so it won't make any difference. It would only make a difference if you wrote it that way. So your point here is of no value.

I am happily married (and what a beauty she is) to someone who speaks a different language and whose language I am now learning. Respect begets respect, hatred begets hatred.

Since China is the most populous nation on earth it would only be fair for everyone to speak Chinese. Majority wins, after all.

Guess what, with your butchering of the English language you'd more than likely fail the American Citizenship Test! Back on the boat you go!

Gosh, I simply refuse to speak English when it is demanded by arrogant and racist people.

Dzai4 jian4!

Taike, the Intellectual Dumbass" aka Ru2 Shang Da4 Ben4 Dan4

And don't forget, English is NOT the official language of the United States. In fact, there is NO official language in the USA.

Dzai4 jian4!

Taike, the Intellectual Dumbass" aka Ru2 Shang Da4 Ben4 Dan4

I still dont get it and laugh at people when they say USA's official language is English...
whats gonna happen 30-40 years from now when
white people are minority? Spanis becomes officical???
Even though now it is already second OFFICIAL.

I'm assuming here that English is your native language, although it would seem that some of our international posters clearly have a much better grasp of it than yourself. So, in light of that, could you possibly find an interpreter so that I can understand what you're trying to get across? If you get my gist.

Gosh, I simply refuse to speak English when it is demanded by arrogant and racist people.

First of all, can we PLEASE keep racism and bigotry out of this thread ?!?
I don't think it has anything to do with chas' original post!!!...

If I were to live in another country, I would certainly learn that language because I would have a NEED to.
I would love to learn Italian (and have made a feeble attempt at it) because it is the language of my ancestors. Unfortunately, my parents did not teach it to me and spoke Italian only when they did not want us to know what they were saying.

I have German neighbors who speak very good English even though they have been here for just a short while. I asked them about it and they said that English is taught in many (if not most) European schools because it is such an International language. How did that happen? Was it arrogant Americans who said "if you want to do business with us you must speak our language", or did it begin because of the proximity of England to Europe, and the fact that the English brought the language to other parts of the world as they were 'colonizing' them? I would think that centuries ago, the citizens of many countries spoke 'Roman' as well as their native language.

Are we "intellectually lazy' because we DON'T learn another language? ... Perhaps, but is there ONE other language we should learn? ... or should we attempt to learn them all?
I, personally, would LOVE to see the 'talking heads' in the media learn and speak "proper" English ... I am amazed and disappointed with what is happening to 'American English' (as opposed to "The King's English") - the improper use of the words 'he or she or I' when it should be 'him, her, or me'... and I am CONVINCED that our local newspaper does not have 'spellcheck' or 'grammar check' and that none of the writers proofreads their own material before it is printed - or perhaps they do and don't know the difference ... and when did it become proper to say 'no problem' instead of 'you're welcome' as a response to 'thank you' ... and why have SO many people forgotten the phrase 'excuse me' ?!?!? ...
I may be going off chas' intent for this thread, and I apologize for that, but I really think many Americans should be interested in 'learning' to speak and write our own language before learning another one ...
JMHO,
t.

I am sorry, but intellectual laziness doesn't cut it...

Why not be as worked up about a lack of knowledge of the hard sciences too? How many of us are familiar with string theory? Who knows all the formulas of Newton, Einstein, Hawking?

Who has read the literature from every major religion in the world. Ever read the Koran, or do you just quote soundbites from it? Do you know the differences between Shia and Sunni Muslims?

And who can work out checksums for Roland sys-ex strings in their head? Or figure out a Yamaha manual? Or tell us why the Audya CAN'T play all the guitar chords?

(OK, disregard that last paragraph )

Look, there's a LOT to be said for knowledge for it's own sake, but be practical, folks... What's the point of spending a fortune nationally, to teach three or four languages to kids who will be unlikely to ever NEED to use them but a handful of times in their lives? Do you honestly think the majority of Chinese kids can speak English? They have enough trouble getting the educational resources to be able to speak all the different languages in their OWN country, let alone worry about us! Remember, the veneer of Westernization that China is showing us now doesn't represent the 1.3B (that's billions with a 'B' ) that speak over six very different languages internally...

So, in all fairness, there are probably more Chinese that DON'T speak English than there are Americans who can't speak Chinese... Maybe even more than Americans who can't write English properly (although this forum seems to indicate that IS close to 100% )

But, I've traveled a fair bit around Europe and the States... And I've run into people that couldn't speak English at all in BOTH places...

And, please! The idea that anyone visiting us (or even immigrating here) MUST speak English is as ridiculous as the thought that we MUST learn Italian, or French, or Dutch or Spanish, or Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, JUST so we can take a vacation there...

Learning a foreign language in a mono-culture should be an elective. We have little enough resources to teach our kids their OWN language. You only have to look around at the half illiterate postings from English speakers (from BOTH sides of the Pond and Down Under, too ) we get here to realize prioritizing speaking other languages is insane...

The good news is, here are over 40 posts on a potentially controversal subject, with widely differing opinions, all written with class. And that's GOOD!

My observations:

1. Chas and Don are correct: the level of illiteracy, including communication created
by mass media folks is a national embarrasment. NPR; at least the Lexington outlet, and educational television are some of the worst offenders. Don's past life as a "media type" are serving him well. I teach college seniors and some of the best of the "techie" types (engineers) can't write a literate sentence. That's because it's hard to cram all the technical material and humanities into a 4 year program. The humanities suffer.

2. I grew up as an "Army Brat". Sadly, the term "ugly American" is pretty much universal
outside the US. Living in different geographic locations and experiencing different cultures is a real "eye opener."
As part of an international community, we need to understand that "our way" is not automatically the only way.

Thanks to all for a meaningful exchange of opinions in a well reasoned manner.


Russ

2.

Diki......love the diversity of opinions here. But to lapse into silliness here for a moment; let's say God suddenly appeared and granted you your choice of 1) understanding all of Stephen Hawking's theories or 2) instant fluency in the top 30 (most spoken) languages in the world. Let's also say that this encounter (with God) took place at an international beauty pageant. Which would you choose? Yeah, me too. The prospect of an interesting and diverse sex life is going to win out over math and science every time. That's why there are so many dumb, ignorant (but happy) people in the world. It all seems so clear to me now. Oh well. Ce la vie.

chas

So all of a sudden I am the bigot and racist?

One who's lived his whole life in one country, has been exposed to one language only, and still can't spell or write a coherent post, shouldn't act like he's superior to all those that at least try to speak the language or have a better command than he does.

There is nothing arrogant or racist in any of my posts. As a matter of fact, what I said was in reference to that poster's replies. Without me even making one arrogant or racist remark I am yet blamed for being the instigator. It's amazing how one's racist and arrogant behavior can turn him into an innocent victim.

If I demand people to speak MY language in MY country than it's only fair that I speak THEIR language in THEIR country and not complain that THEY don't speak MINE. I've traveled the world over and have heard my share of "why can't they speak English" although not in such civilized terms. And "how can they eat that crap" or "I need to get myself some real food (MacDonald's)" doesn't sound racist or arrogant? It sure does to me. Just the other day I heard several of your countrymen refer to Japanese as Japs. I doubt they meant it as a term of endearment.

Chas asked for reasons and several international posters, including myself, have stated their reasons. Those that speak English only have so far come up with ONE reason why they shouldn't have to acquire a second language. Albeit one that showed blatant disregard and ignorance. I am honored and gladly accept the title of Intellectual Dumbass.

Why is it necessary for those that only speak English to get so defensive and can't resist throwing in "you'd better speak my language when you're in my country" and "why should I have to learn a second language since English is the international language" remarks. It's totally uncalled for but it does show underlying resentment towards non-speakers of English. They even show resentment towards those that try their best to get their point across. I thought the forced assimilation period had come to an end but, to all appearances, it hasn't.

Having said all that, does it mean that I expect people to learn a second language? No! I most certainly don't. I do, however, have a problem with their superiority complex which is all too apparent in their writings.

Perhaps it would've been more favorable if I'd just stayed in my dormant state. I know for a fact that I am an unwanted poster here. Certain members would love to see me go.

Mr. Mads, I have nothing against you and hold you in high esteem as I always have.

Regards,

Taike, the Intellectual Dumbass" aka Ru2 Shang Da4 Ben4 Dan4

By the way, Diki, Chinese (PRC) people only study Mandarin Chinese and not any of the other dialects. It's only in recent years that students in Taiwan have Taiwanese added to their language curriculum.


[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-19-2010).]

Taike ...
I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT call you, or mean to imply that you were, a bigot or a racist.
All I did was take a line from YOUR post and ask that those words not be used or implied in this thread, because I had a fear that the thread might have taken that direction after your post ... Obviously, I have far less command of my speaking or writing of the English than I think I have, if my words could have been so misinterpreted ...
My sincerest apologies for not being clearer in my thoughts ...
With all due respect to everyone here ...
t.

No harm done, Mr. Mads. I take full responsibility for having misinterpreted your words.

Taike

As we say in 'American English' when playing basketball "no harm, no foul" ...
t.

Dang1 ju2 zhe3 mi2.

Well I have to admit I would probably choose the first possibility. ;-)

P.S. There is an old saying which goes something like this:
'A man is valid for as many persons as the number of languages he speak'.

Easy for YOU to say !
t.

Oops! Forget to mention the translation.

A spectator sees more than a player in the heat of a game.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

Hi,
speaking of overhearing someone, when they don't realize, YOU understand what they're saying about you.
Had rather a funny experience in Vienna a few years back on holiday.

Mum & I were browsing around a gift shop in Vienna.. I'd spotted a couple of items I was intending on buying including quite an expensive music box. I was happily chatting to mum ( in English) whilst chewing gum
( not very ladylike chewing gum, but so what)
From behind the gift counter we heard one sales lady say to the other (quite sarcastically in German)
wish the cow would stop chewing & buy something.
With that, we walked up to the counter & mum in fluent German, asked the price of a couple of items.
You should have seen their jaws drop, once they'd realzed we'd understood every word they'd said. haahaa
Mum's still got her German accent, I don't have one , because I grew up in Australia speaking English. Even after 50 + years, mum still has an accent.

Alas the sales lady's lost a few hundred dollars in sales.
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DonM:
[B]I would like to learn Spanish because there will soon be as many Mexicans in the US as there are English. It would be fun to understand what they are saying about us in the Mexican Restaurants.

Hi Guys,
have a question.
When you speak a number of languages, what language do you actually THINK in.
For me it's English. Grew up in an English speaking country, even though we spoke a certain amount of German at home, mainly because my grandmother wasn't good at speaking English.

best wishes
Rikki

Well said, Taike.
You could not have made it any clearer.
You can play golf with me anytime.
Oh!! Roger, I believe the first one was a moral victory for us, don't you aggree?
Ray

------------------
Ray The Saint

Sorry,
Roger is on another topic. My first mistake today!!
Ray

------------------
Ray The Saint

I read this whole thread. My personal �the most meaning in the least number of words� award goes to Mr. 9000 for the following:

�There are so many things a person already has to contend with that keeps life bogged down that i just want to say to the clerk at McDonalds:" ".. just gimmie a dam hamburger without pickles please �

��why not one language..one Sun,one language,one life one speech.�

**********************************

As for me, Lucky, sure I�m refreshing my Spanish (luckily I learned it in high school), and I�d also like to learn Italian, German, and French so I can sing in those languages but there�s just not enough time to do everything...and earn a living too, so it ain�t gonna happen!

Sure there�s the prestige and respect and benefits multi-lingual people enjoy, but we live in a world now where leisure time (to learn ANYTHING) is a precious commodity. I spent 4 hours at Sam Ash tonight trying different keyboards. Why 4 hours? 3 of those hours were spent learning how to operate each one, because, as usual, the salesman didn�t know what he was doing. I could have spent those wasted 3 hours studying a foreign language, couldn't I?

Lucky

Diki....let me guess. You DON'T live in an area where you have to locate your items yourself in the supermarket because none of the help speaks English. Ditto for seeking service in English at many gas stations, car washes, small restaurants, convenience stores or even asking directions on the street.

I lived in Europe for many years. In each country I lived in I made every effort not to be a burden on the home folks...and I studied my Berlitz books every single day until I acquired moderate conversational skills. It's called being considerate to your fellow man! Foreign folk who insist on speaking their own language here should learn to be as considerate to us.

Lucky

I always think in the language I am speaking, Rikki. This is something I've trained myself to do from the very onset in order not to get confused with grammar, vocabulary and idioms. It also makes you a more fluent speaker as your mind is not constantly translating. A major mistake most language learners make, and sadly educators as well, is to have beginning students translate vocabulary, phrases, and sentences. This often leads to students getting stuck when hearing or reading expressions as they tend to translate word by word. That's why it's so important to learn and use as many expressions as possible. Thus having someone tell you that "there's a snake in the grass" won't make you jump up like a jack-in-a-box as you know that he's referring to a treacherous person. Only advanced learners should do translations as they've learned idioms and other subleties of the language.

As a matter or fact, even my dreams tend to be multi-lingual. Then again, I use at least three to four languages (Chinese, English, Lao and Thai) a day so I don't think it's unique.

Taike

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-12-2009).]

Be careful now, Ray. My friend once took me to play golf and it was the biggest mistake he'd ever made in his life. You see, I was, and still am, a complete stranger to the game. Well, it certainly wasn't my mistake as I'd warned him not to stand in my line of fire. How I managed to hit the ball backwards, straight into his head, is beyond my comprehension. Suffice to say that I'd blown my changes for a rematch. On the other hand, who'd want to play with someone who spent a lifetime on the first hole and vowed to raze every golf course in the nation out of utter frustration? Can you take the pain?

Taike

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-16-2009).]

My hat off to you, Lucky. That's the spirit!

Taike

Well that question is a good one ..
I am always in awe of the interpreters who work at the UN when they LISTEN to the speaker in one language and IMMEDIATELY translate into another !!!!!
That , for me , is absolutely amazing.
P.S. the question about what language are you thinking in reminds me that when I was abroad on business, especially in Germany, I often had the strange feeling that after visiting a customer, I had no idea whether we spoke in German or English!



[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 08-12-2009).]

Lucky, if I visit a country that I don't speak the language, I do not demand anyone speaks mine. Should they chose to, that's their choice. Me, I'll get a quick guide/traveler's dictionary/phrase book and somehow muddle through. Perhaps you think learning a foreign language necessary to 'not be a burden' on the natives. Me, I think I can probably muddle through OK without taking years of lessons for the one visit.

Let's be frank here... should you limit your travel to ONLY countries you speak their language (where's the toilet and two beers please don't really count ). Kind of limits your choices, doesn't it?

I don't EXPECT foreigners to speak English... when they do, it's a pleasant surprise, but I have no more right to expect of them than they do of me. A phrase book and some sign language gets us by. But feel free to stay at home until you have learned the language of wherever you want to visit. How many years is that per country? I'd prefer to think of how many countries per year I could visit if I didn't have to...

Accelerated language courses work wonders as long as you're willing to spend an hour or more a day for thirty to sixty days (or longer)pracitcing. Diplomats spend about the same amount of time to learn the basics. Once you know the basics the sky's the limit. That'll give you plenty of countries to visit in a year's time. If one only had the time.

Taike

Posso ler, escrever e falar portugues
Soy capaz de leer, escribir y hablar en espa�ol
Je peux lire, �crire et parler en fran�ais
Sono in grado di leggere e scrivere in italiano
I can read and write in English despite the small vocabulary
Just a small story.
Last year I received an email from an American engineer, working in Brazil, looking for lessons of music at an arranger.
He required classes in English.
So I replied that we were in Brazil and that lessons should be in Portuguese.
The beginning he resisted but then accepted.
Today a year later we are here making music and are great friends.

Taike-good to hear from you. Say hello to my little buddy!


R.

Diki....my "spiel" was directed at your "or even immigrating here" comment. Not about short visits to foreign countries.

Lucky

Fortunately for you, Lucky, most other countries don't require fluency in their language as a precondition to immigration or residency. Yes, it helps to know the language, but don't forget, there were Italian families (and Germans, and Poles, and many, many other countries) that immigrated here at the turn of the 20th centuries that knew and spoke little English until the second generations or so. Now, some of the sixth or seventh generation of these same people want to raise the bar?

Diki....it's NOT about what happened in the past, who spoke English when, what's politically correct, who's Civil Rights are being violated, etc. It's about consideration for other people, as in....if your intention is to settle into a foreign country and that country is kind enough to allow it, then you put your ego aside and do what's best for your adopted land. You learn English! You don't ask the rest of the country to take the time to learn YOUR language (so they can also wear an "internationl" label).

Anyhow, this topic is so far off course now, I even forgot how it started. Enough of this, and May The Force Be With You! I'm going out to waste another few hours at Sam Ash to do the salesman's job and learn how the M3 works.

L

Assuming that you're settling in an English-speaking country, then yes, then you'd better learn English. As long as you embrace the new culture and people, in other words, blend in, you shouldn't have any problem. If, however, you wish to reside in your "old country" in the new country, assimilation will be a very slow process or in many cases, even non-existent.



Once again, you adapt to the country, the country not to you. You adapt to them (locals), they (locals) not to you.

Taike



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-13-2009).]

I simply think it is a different case between when an individual moves to another country, and when a large number from the same community move all at once. Given the latter, integration isn't quite the pressing need, as we have seen at many points in America's history. What is going on now has happened many times before, and somehow, we have not become a multilingual society in any official sense.

But it is curious to see that the same people that think that learning another language would be a good thing (if one moves to another country) seem to be the ones most worried that it might become a necessity here in the good ol' USA... All this admiration for members who are multi-lingual, in truth primarily because they NEED to be (and their education systems recognize the need), but concern that we might have to do this ourselves, one day...

The truth is, there is only one language in the USA... the language of MONEY

Tell that to the American Indians...

Sorry, posted to wrong thread

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 08-14-2009).]

Nice one ,Rikki
What a breath of fresh air to this thread which seems to have gone off key


------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

PSR9000

Different story, mi kola. Unless you meant something else. The forced cultural assimilation process is a never-healing wound.

I have several close friends that are Native American: Flatfoot (Crow Rez, Billings, Montana), Cherokee (North Carolina), Apache (New Mexico), Lakota, Dakota and Nakota (Pine Ridge and Standing Rock), Comanche (Nez Perce Rez, Idaho) and Cree (Canada).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3VOZ4n4aM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DonrHJADai0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9mJpL67QUw&feature=related

Taike

Too much schnapps, Rikki?

Whoops,
that was supposed to go to th Ejam.
How EMBARRASING. haahaa

I was wondering where my ejam post went.
best wishes
Rikki

(naa, too much friday bubbly (champagne).

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Taike

(Dble pst)

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 08-14-2009).]

TAIKE... Your posts here are intriguing!
That you are fluent in more than 1-3 languages is impressive. I also really admire the way you think. I heard all three of the videos you posted, they break my heart!

As there is no email listing for you, this seems the only way to ask you to contact you. Please contact me via my email which is available in my profile here. There is much I would love to share with you if you are open to communicating privately?

Elizabeth Evelyn

------------------

Thank you, Elizabeth. A message via email has been sent.

Taike

When I was a young man serving aboard the U.S.S. Newport News in the United States Navy, and later while working for NASA, I traveled the world and was able to learn a smattering of many languages. At one point, I was able to converse in Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese and even a bit of Japanese, but that was many years ago. Unfortunately, when I left NASA my use of those other languages was soon lost because of non-use. I still retained a fair degree of Spanish until my sister-in-law, who is of Puerto Rican decent, moved to Florida. She has been gone for more than 15 years, and now I struggle to understand a conversation in Spanish. I think this is true with many of the skills we acquire, including music. If you don't use it, you'll likely loose it.

Great topic,

Gary

What would please me the most is to have DonM explaing about his extensive knowledge of the English language, because of the fact that 80% of the music he performs is country! It seems to me that country lyrics would really screw him up, especially when you consider that he's been performing now for maybe 58 years give or take a couple!

Cavanaugh, are you there? You've jammed with DonM before. Do you think that this is something you'd be interesting in hearing Don elaborate about?

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 08-19-2009).]

Greek is spoken by about 10-13 million people only (and take my word for it, many Greeks can't actually speak it but you can't tell, after all it is all Greek to you, right?)

Most Greeks learn a second language, (mostly English) because they NEED to, for obvious and well discussed reasons.

Since the public school infrastructure for foreign language teaching ranges from "practical joke" to "shitty", most pupils learn other languages through private schools. Takes about six years.

I learned English through this process, and tried to further my understanding by reading books. As a result, I am FAR better in reading/writing English than speaking it, although I can speak with a passable fluency. Fran has spoken to me on Skype, ask him about my terrible accent.

A problem I found is that many times i know what a written word means, even understand enough colloquialisms but can't pronounce it right, or soetimes don't know the correct pronunciation, or never actually heard the word spoken.

And the fun part...
It was easy enough for me to hold a conversation with a Scottish guy, (who of course made an effort to speak clearly for me) and with a five year old from Birmingham, so I thought I was the cat's pajamas.

But one day me and a friend (who has a knack for languages) heard a Greek girl speaking to a guy, three feet away from us. They were talking to each other for maybe 3 minutes, and we couldn't understand a word, nor we could "place" the language. It wasn't Francophone, not Cyrillic, nor Balkan, nor Spanish/Portuguese, no eastern, no Arabic... no Nordic language. We asked her in English where did the guy and she lived... and her answer was "New Zealand"


[This message has been edited by trident (edited 08-19-2009).]

Rikki, didn't see any response to your post, so here is mine. I believe you think in the current language you are using the most.
I worked in Switzerland for 2 years in the 1960's. Spoke German as no English was spoken in the little Engineering firm. When I returned to Australia I relised I was thinking in German and it took me about 6 weeks to drop back to thinking in English.
Regards
Keith

Vielleicht hast Du meine Antwort �bersehen , Keith?

Taike

I'm quite an expert in Pig Latin. anCa ouya eakspa igpa atinla?

onDa asonMa

I hvnae't jnioed tihs traehd, raseon bineg lgunageas dno't hvae to mkae scens.

Know what I mean?