What do you think? A complimentary pairing for a home setup or is adding the pa800 to my T3 a waste of $$$?

I seriously considered the pa588 w/88 keys but some of the voices are quite cheesy and it doesn't have expansion capabilities like the pa800. (however the 588 has a killer piano onboard).

Tim

I have always liked having more than one brand of keyboard. Every maker has its forte as far the way their voices sound. A few years ago I had a PSR3000 paired with a Korg i40M. I thought each complimented the other. Since you're talking about much better quality instruments I think it could only be an improvement. Mixing the best of both sounds like a good idea to me.

Tim, Manuel Dorantes who visits this board uses that combination for his gigs. With any luck he'll comment.

Although I don't take both the s900 and Pa2xPro on gigs together. I like the combination of having both boards. Just my personal taste.

Tim,

Well, they are 2 diffrent animals for sure.
I would not buy one unless you spend a lot of time with one yourself AND preferably with someone that knows the board very well (Frank V. comes to mind)

Get the PA2XPRO...a lot more expandable (up to 256mb sample ram).
Also better keybed and more sliders, plays MP3's right out of the box.

As to Piano, go to the Korg forum and look for the thread on a new Irish act's steinway Piano's...it is superb and will be available soon for little $$. It is only for PA2 as it takes 160 mb of sample ram to load it. It has 4 levels of sample PER note, and other nice features.

I am a beta tester for the sounds and really think they are super.

Also, there is a really good FREE piano from Rob S. on the forum too. It will work on a PA800, if I remember right.

IF, you dont want to swing to PA2, then PA800 would be OK too...but it would be great to get the PA2. It costs less than a T3! I think you can get one new from Frank V. here on the forum...Maybe $3200 Maybe less...ask Frank what he can do for you.

Please be aware that there is a significant learning curve to the Korg PA. It is a PRO level board and has lots of flexibility too. There is a 3 DVD set available to help and some tutorials...AND great help on the forum. If you want to get a lot out of it, you will need to be patient. I had a T2, now only a PA2XPO.

Lee S.

Thanks guys for you comments. You corroborate my thinking on the use of two very different sounding kbds.
I am torn btwn the 588 (which really would fill the niche as a 88 key piano, making the setup more versatile) since I have no piano. (not to mention the $400 rebate from Korg right now). Downside is as I already mentioned - really poor saxes and no opportunity to add voices. Downside of the 800 is that it's another 61 key machine and more money. Upside is the expansion potential and the quality voices - some which come close to those on T3.
Forgive me for babbling on - I'm processing as I write. Any wisdom from fellow SZ'ers is valued
Tim

I'd say wait for what Roland has up their sleeve down the pike.

Years ago I used double keyboards on jobs...two different brands with two different OS's. Never again.
Eddie

I don't gig...I just have an expensive hobby

I use a PA800 and a Ketron Midjay Plus. They work well together and it's easier that carrying 2 boards.
Ciao,
Jerry

Hi Tim,
I have a PA800 & a PSR1500.
Really don't use my PSR much anymore, I'm a happy Korg convert.
They're both different stylewise.

David McMahan ( from this forum) bought a PA588 just recently.

I like having the sample memory of the PA800/PA2X.
Do a comparison before deciding. http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa800_comp.html?en


best wishes
Rikki

Hi Tim:

Like Stephen said, I do play out with the Tyros3 and the Korg....I play both PA800/500, I like the DNC and some other on board sounds that the 800 has over the 500, for what I use, I mostly take the T3 and the PA500... witch by the way is in the engine of the PA588 with the exception of the Gran Piano sound that is (I been told) that is really Great.
I like the combination of both, the Korg I like the fact that you can make your very own styles using only a PC sequencer software, it does NOT require the special software that is needed to make styles for ALL the other brands, Korg allows the user to make Factory quality styles, of course, you must have the creativity, patience, and an eye for the detail, and like most things in life, everything becames easier when you pass the learning curve.
I really like my setup, right now I am working (besides the gigs), in 2 CDs that I will release soon, and I am using both keyboards in almost all the songs, I already have 21 numbers, needless to say, I make a living playing in Ballroom dances, and that is the market that I have oriented the songs I am putting into it.
Hope this help you.
P.S. The Korg style making is available in ALL their models, PA500-588-800 and 2X.

------------------
mdorantes

Hi Tim,
If you have this "expensive Hobby", like me, and you can afford having those two TOTL amazing arrangers just buy the Korg Pa800/Pa2x!!. The Korg sound will add a different touch to your music. I have a Pa500 and I am still amazed by its sounds and styles at least for the "home" use I give it. Or you could also buy a Pa500/588 and a good computer for playing Vsti (something I've been doing with the Mediastation) and I can assure you'll never get bored of the sounds you hear. In this way you would get the Korg styles + an unlimited instrumental soundsource for the melody part(imagine adding Garritan Orchestra sounds for example). If you don't make complex arrangements using the computer and you play at home you can use it live mostly without problems.
Just a different idea. Good luck.

Victor

So Victor, what you're saying is get the 588 piano/arranger and use it to play VST sounds. I am a total newbie in playing from a computer. I have a nice laptop, but never considered using software-based voices. What do I need to do that? What software and how much does it cost? This is all new territory for me.

Tim

Hi Tim
Pretty much everything you need to know about VST and music software
http://www.kvraudio.com/
http://www.synthzone.com/

For those of you that are considering running two arrangers at the same time, get on the phone with your manufacturer, your dealer, your dealer rep, anyone you can...

And ask them for standardized MIDI codes for Variation, Fills, Intros and Endings. It is disgraceful, here in the 21st century, after nearly thirty years of MIDI being around, that you STILL can't trigger two different arranger engines at the same time.

What you guys are discussing here is using the RH sounds from one arranger with the style section of another. But imagine how much BETTER it would be if you could combine different style parts from different arrangers... An almost infinite variety of styles would be possible, just from the permutations between two sets of ROM styles. Pick and chose the best of each. Shore up the weak areas of one arranger with the strong points of another...

That you CAN'T do this right now simply because the manufacturers WILL NOT get together and decide a simple standard is pathetic. Every arranger out there (or at least, most of them) has the codes to do this. BUT THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT, AND ALL HARDWIRED.

It's time to change this, my friends.... But only YOU can bring this about. It is patently obvious the manufacturers don't care one iota. Make some noise...

Tim first of all I am a home user not a pro musician and I've been working with computer based software for a moth. What I meant is, as a different option, you could buy a much lesser expensive keyboard like a Pa 500 or 588 if you need the whole 88 weigthed keyboard to get the style engine of Korg arrangers and spend the rest of the money to buy a computer and some software to play VSTi (virtual instruments). If you play a Vsti for the melody part alone (not as part of the style itself)it is not very complex to use and the computer is usually very stable. Computers are a whole different world to get involved with, and you may get lost at first, but you will find the best sounds ever produced and you won't need to change keyboards so often. Most active members in this forum are players who need something practical light, safe and fast so it's not convenient for them yet. Others tried software programs to make styles and compose music and tell us that it is a nightmare to use so they went back to regular arrangers. I'm recomending this to you just to play the computer sounds from your own arranger, since it is your hobby you may enjoy discovering new sounds every day.

Victor

Diki I wish they heard us. In a way I already do that, I play both arrangers at the same time syncing their tempo. The Psr styles also plays the Korg drums an basses and I add real guitar pads or styles from the Korg but all has to be done manually. At least Korg has a midi control channel specifically to trigger intro, variations, fills and breaks. Not always it would be useful to change variations in both keyboards at the same but at least we'd have that option available.

Victor

OK

So - given several options - I think I will not go the software route. I will seriously consider Korg as my next kbd ( i've had a serious relationship exclusively with Yamaha for years and with Roland before that.)
I never pAid much attn to Korg previously, but now have come to appreciate the Korg sound and think it would work well combined with the T3 voices on a recording project.

My decision will be btwn 88 keys with Ok sounds (Pa588 and $400 rebate) or 61 keys again with great sounds (Pa800 with expansion + $500 more in cost)
Pa2x is just too much $$

Decisions! Ugh!
Tim

They ALL do... the problem is, they are ALL different, and they are ALL unchangeable. Yamaha uses PC#'s, Roland uses PC#'s, not sure what Korg uses... But Yamaha's PC#'s are different to Roland's, and you can't change them yourself so they match.

That is all we need... (and a simple parameter would enable/disable reception).

It's not rocket science, simply apathy from users who would LIKE to maybe run two arrangers, but can't be bothered to let their manufacturers know that this NEEDS to be fixed before it is possible. The thing that blows my mind is, how come the arranger manufacturers don't realize that this one thing would do more to increase sales than just about anything else they can think of. If I COULD run two arrangers together, I guarantee I WOULD. So would many here. But until this happens, we usually stick to just the one.

All it would take would be a phone call from Yamaha to Roland and Korg, and it become the de facto standard (everybody else would jump on board). But they won't do it until you tell them that you WANT IT...

Really? Could you tell me what Prog Change numbers are used in the PSR line to start/stop styles, change variations, fills etc. remotely and how I implement it. The 2 switch pedals are a different thing and I already use them for other tasks. Korg has a special "Control Channel" for that. I could use my Korg Nano Kontrol for controlling my distant PSR through Midi. I did not find this feature in any PSR Manual.

Victor

[This message has been edited by vagro (edited 08-18-2009).]

Diki,
I guess you could run both arranger engines at the same time..but, IMHO I don't think I want that...I just want to use one at a time,,maybe different one for each song, or even different one for the same song.. on different nights?

Korg uses MIDi PC's to control most arranger functions (into1,2,3, VARS, fills etc)
This is not a problem at all if you are using a MIDI foot pedal unit. All you have to do is easily setup a SET (most allow for at least ten sets of MIDI control setups) to control whichever kbd you are using, then select it depending on the kbd at the time.

If you wanted two arranger engines running at the same time (??), then it would be a problem.

The Behringer FCB1010 handles this issue in fine shape. If you are playing a song with Yammaha T3 select set A, Korg PA Set B, Roland G-70 Set C etc.

Where the BIG isue is = The MIDI implementation on most arrangers is very poor and very amateur.

Let's say you want to use a Yamaha T3 to play sounds on another MIDI instrument, say a G-70 (Korg PA, HW sound module, VSTi etc)....You can look in the manual for the G-70 and find the necessary MIDI bank/Program change message to send to select say a nice Sax...BUT YOU CANNOT program the T3 so that when you select a performance or sound in a style to actually send the correct MIDI message out!

That's what we need to tell the MFG's we want (along with other better MIDI implementation).

Any PRO synth can do this fine...The PA2XPRO being a PRO arranger can also do this fine and I use it all the time. It is the only one I am aware of that can.

When I had the T2 and a Kurzweil PC2R...I wanted to do this so I called Yamaha support to see how...they told me 'You don't need to do that this is a home keyboard and everything you need is in there already'...end of support call.

That's the attitude of the arranger Mfg's we need to change for us that want/need TOTL arrangers!

Lee S.

Lee, may be you could create a basic style using some SA or Mega voices in Yamaha and another basic style using drums and other sounds in Korg and play them together changing the style's variation on only one arranger but I guess it would be very complicated though. On the whole Korg Pa line you can send out midi Pc messages, including the lowest range Pa500, it's not that hard to implement it. For me it would be good to be able to control the Psr Intro/Var/fills/End from my NanoKontrol. I could use the 18 buttons in any of the four programable Sets (18x4=72 possibilities) and have it at the tip of my fingers.

Victor

So anyway... as I was saying...I really like the concept that Korg came up with...an arranger piano that doesn't cost $5,000 as does the typical arranger/piano like Clavinova or Roland's KR line - way too much for an instrument which becomes hopelessly outdated without any chance of a software upgrade.

If Korg had outfitted the Pa588 with their advanced voices, it would be irrersistable. I imagine the next model will have them. Could it be that they want to clear out the 500 and 588 with such deep rebates?

I'm tempted to wait and see. But I also wonder if the 500 and 588 could be given a software update like the 800 was given. Owners were claiming the update made their 800 sound like a new board...and doesn't the 500/588 share the same engine with the 800?

Tim:

The Pairing either the PA800/588/ to the T3, is a win win situation!!.
I do not want to get in pissing contest, that is not my thing, BUT, NO single manufacturer, regardless of the name/model, makes the "perfect" arranger, since we ALL have different taste, needs, level of talent, skills and do not forget that we are talking about something "subjective" to the sole individual.

I like different things/features/sounds/styles of each individual manufacturers,
I am OPEN minded, but in the end, I can not carry 4 or 5 keyboards to each job, so, I made decisions on what keyboards will do certain things that I expect and so on.
That is how I arrived to the formula of this 2 arrangers. I do not understand why some players have 2 keyboards of the same brand and model in the stage, that is redundant,(unless is a backup).
Think that you are an artist that needs ALL the shades of each color=sounds, that's how I see it, sometimes I may need a darker, brighter, or wherever sound, and having 2 different sounds(tone generations) is easier to find what you want.

------------------
mdorantes

To be honest, YES... I DO want to run two arrangers at the same time. Let us take, for example running my G70 for what it does BEST (let's say drums, saxes and E Piano, for instance), and syncing an S910 to it, for what IT does best (let's say the acoustic and electric guitar parts, Bass part, etc.). A combination of what is BEST on each board, rather than pick the compromise you can live with best, and leave it at that...

While theoretically, you MIGHT be able to trigger the divisions with an external piece of gear, it's going to be pretty complicated, as you are going to have to send different MIDI streams to each keyboard, as whatever makes the one keyboard trigger it's division changes is going to probably have some unintended effect on the other arranger.

Bottom line is, this would be a walk in the park if only the manufacturers would pick ONE common set of instructions. No need for complicated external gear. Simply press VAR4 on the one keyboard, and VAR4 comes up on the slave...

Hi Victor...good to hear from you again,
Yes, I think you can use the Nano very nicely to control the Yamaha style elements.

As far a styles/sounds..I am very happy with the styles I have on the PA...sometimes I may want to use a VSTi or other (Kurzweil PC2R) sounds instead of one on the PA..No problem to do it as we can just use EXTERNAL mode on that track, key in bank/pgm and off we go...Neat. (CC0, CC32, PG chg). Save that in a songbook entry and good to go anytime.

Lee S.

Full control of the arranger styles may be incompatible between boards, but ever since Midi came out you have been able to sync the Tempo, which can also activate the Start/Stop button on the slave. (Even my Wersi Alpha from 1984 could do that)
You can also get Midi control boxes that will swap the CC for you. (Setup once and then you can forget it)
A standard always comes in handy though.

Bill