I'm sure this subject has been done to death.....but. I thought it was interesting that Diki, a working pro, who has had his arranger (G70) a few years now, would choose to buy a second G70 instead of say, a T2, or T3, or PA800, etc. He has stated many times his admiration for some of Yammy's SA or Korg's DNC voices. Of course, I can't speak for Diki (no one can ), but what it says to me is that 'as a working pro, I'd rather have a instantly-usable backup than the fleeting gratification and pleasure of a few new styles and voices. It also says to me, 'I have taken the time to thoroughly learn my instrument and therefore know it's potential for producing the kind of music that I do in my professional performances.

I don't really know if this is what Diki thinks and I probably shouldn't use him by name as an example, but......I think this is a classic example of one side of the upgrade/don't upgrade decision. There's also Tony (KN6000?), 124 (I30), and many others, pro and amateur, who have resisted the impulse to get a new T3 while sitting on a 6mo. old, 20% explored, T2.

Like a diving competition, we'll throw out the 'high and low' scores, like the impulse buyer (me and my friend Capt. Russ ), the 'buy 'em, try 'em, sell 'em' buyer (Fran), the 'I'm not trading up until the technology allows them to play what I'm thinking' buyer (non-buyer, actually). But what about the rest of you? Is it the realism of the 'new' voices, which, BTW, never sound that good once we get them home or try to use them live.....most of us don't have the playing skills to emulate a good sax or guitar player, no matter what the voice sounds like. Is it the addition of some new feature like triple MP3 player, super-duper harmonizers that can make you sound like the Beach Boys OR the Supremes. Usually, most of these features are either never used or could be purchased as inexpensive separate units. So why do we take a one grand loss on our old kb while paying a one grand premium on the new one, for what, on close inspection, is a very minor upgrade. 'First guy on the block' syndrome (braggin' rights), 'my audience is going to love me twice as much with this new kb', 'I can't listen to these same boring styles another day' (boredom), or .....?

Which of these things have the manufacturers tapped into to keep us buying? If you're not buying, how/why have you resisted? Your thoughts.

chas

From my viewpoint.., (at least from what I've seen on the forum over the years)., I've notice that many just hit their own personal limits.., and drop a board for a new one without ever really scratching the surface of the one they have.

The reality is.. ALL of these arrangers can last a person YEARS.., if that person is willing to explore the many options these arrangers have. However.., you mention the word "edit" or "tweek" to some here and they run the other way. I cannot understand why people here blow through boards so quickly..., especially when 95% of the time the board already has the tools to do what's needed.

I think you'd see people keeping them longer if more people were willing to learn something new and get past their OWN limitations. Your boards already have the tools.., it's YOU that has to learn how to use them.

First things first: Hi Chas and Squeak!

One of my first posts was asking why so many have the need to constantly getting new keyboards.

So far I've had two keyboards. Frankly speaking, I'm not really that into keyboards as my first love is and always will be the organ.

Sure, having a new instrument is all nice and that but, yes, once again, I don't see the purpose as long as one is not trying to improve his/her playing skills. As for me, styles and voices do not mean a thing if the playing doesn't impress me (you know, the pro on a cheap Casio and the bungling player on a top model story). But that's how players are judged - not by what keyboard they play but by their playing ability.

I rather work on styling instead of styles, learning new playing techniques, to apply these techniques to songs and arrangements. Styling and playing techniques are very important to me since I mainly play concert pieces (on the organ). Technology comes a distant second.

Taike

I'm in the same category as Diki in that both my keyboards are identical in every respect. Same model, same memory, same OS, same everything. If one board were to crap out, which fortunately, has never happened, my backup board is ready to go at all times.

Each time I make a change in a registration, style, EQ settings, etc.. in one keyboard, the other is usually changed the same day.

There are a few things that would cause me to upgrade from my current Yamaha PSR-3000s, one of which would be the addition of a built-in hard drive, or high-capacity memory card drive that could be left in the keyboard at all times. Additionally, the ability to display lyrics and play mp3s would also be a nice feature. Yes, I know much of this is available in the T3, however, the T3 weighs significantly more, it's a bit bulky, and nearly everyone I know has encountered both software and hardware problems--which is not what a working entertainer needs to encounter, particularly while on the job.

From my perspective, the PSR-3000 has been a workhorse that has never let me down. It has performed flawlessly during thousands of jobs. The way things are going, I guess I'll be sticking with them, maybe for as long as Fran owned the G-1000.

Good topic Chas,

Gary

I'm in the camp where if something goes down, I have a very close back up to use in its place. My gigging kb is a T2, my back up is a T1. I can use either for anything I do performance wise.

I'm very, very pleased with the T2 and keep finding new ways to get more out of it. I honestly haven't even considered looking into a new kb for sometime. I did check out the t3, but the new sounds/styles/etc. weren't enough to justify the purchase.



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Bill in Dayton

Playing in the same place almost every night, I am constantly trying to stay "fresh".
It's not hard to do with some work, but one of the things I look for are easy ways to audition styles, even on the job (slow nights).
I love the Rolands, but so far the styles must be loaded into one folder. Then you must search for the new ones and try them, then delete the ones that don't suit.
Yamaha's S900 and up allows you to read directly from an external card, as does the Ketron Audya.
I suppose ease of operation is a paramount factor for me in considering a change.
I would already have purchased a Roland E-80 if it weren't for this factor and the glaring break/fill issue.
Still waiting for my Audya to be replaced by one from the latest batch, as soon as they arrive. Meanwhile the E50 continues to please and even amaze me.
DonM

I think everyone buys an arranger for his own reasons...

I as a currently not performing musician (I play music as a stressreleave from a stressfull dayjob) buy a new instrument as a new tool to toy around with and to explore my limits with that tool....

I will never reach an instruments limits, but playing on a new tool makes things feel fresh and challenges me to do different and new things.


And so everyone has its own reasons to buy or not to buy a new instrument.

With all current topmodels having top knotch quallity sounds, its features and interesting ways to toy around with music and sounds that make me buy a new instrument.

I think yamaha and Ketron that espescially create instruments to be played straight from the box would not so be my choice.

I prefer the ideas behind Korg, General Music but new ways of creating music like the possibilities of Linontracs (Q-ranger/vst's) but also arpegiators combined with arangers and espescially KARMA are luring me intoo buying new tools.

I am on the verge of discovering new ways to play music and spread my wings beyoud just playing Arranger styles or playing piano style along with midi/audio.

Not being dependent on these instruments for gigging gives me total freedom of switching instruments, but if i was dependent on my instruments for supporting my familly, i'd have a different attitude.
With current soundquallity and possibilities I can't think of a reason to leave great instruments like G70, Tyros2, PA1X for something new.....these instruments sound great in the hands of a capable musician and no one in the audiance will probably hear the difference between a T2 or T3, so why rebuild my whole setups and put tons of money in a new instrument when none notice it?

All i want is to have fun doing so while realising that i will never ever push these great instruments to their limits.

Wow, what great responses. Another classic example of how diverse we are in our thinking and attitudes on this subject. More importantly, the realization that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' approach to the question of why or whether we choose to upgrade. Just an interesting look at the reasons behind our choices.

Taike, glad to see you back on board. Been meaning to email you; just add me to the list of world class procrastinators. Just wanted to know how you were doing and bring you up to date on my dull and boring life ).

Question for DonM. Some on this board go to great lengths to prepare their arrangers for the 'gig'. Custom registrations for nearly every song on the songlist, etc. Makes using different boards (especially from different manufacturers) seem like a very daunting task. Just knowing which styles are suitable for specific songs (between boards) would be beyond my learning/retention abilities. How do you manage this (I think I remember instances where you say that you have taken brand new, unfamiliar boards to a gig the same day you got it). You must have several commendations for bravery .

chas

Until recently, only 25% of my jobs were arranger ones. Most of those are in restaurants where the volume is low and the tunes are not too busy. Even though I have an unplayed SD-5 and a bunch of other stuff, the MS-60's I have used for years (over 10 years; at least 4 nights per week)suit the task(S) perfectly.
Sometimes I use the little NP-30 or a controller and old Yamaha tone generator on top, but that's about it. That set-up does the job.

Everything else is a combination of a C-1 or XK-1 with an electric piano of some kind, with at least a drummer, and that's a completely different animal.

The SD-5 is a pretty neat keyboard. So is the Midjay I got from DonM. I hope I get comfortable enough to use them before they just fall apart from old age.

George sold me a GW-7 a few years back that has been turned on once to make sure it works. That has been obsoleted by the GW-8 upgrade. He also sold me a SH-201, which would work for my group gigs, but not in the restaurnats, which is all I can do right now, until I heal up a little more. It has been used on one job and turned on two or three other times.

Right now, I'm glad I have arrangers, but most of the time (when I heal up), I'd prefer not to use them. They have a place in the arsenal, but are not my "go to" instruments if I have other options.


Russ

Chas,
I have taken new boards to the job very quickly, but they were always operating systems with which I was very familiar.
For example, Yamaha still is using many of the same styles they were using 7 or 8 years ago, and the same OS as well. Even the vocal processing and harmonizer have not changed, and although they have added new sounds, the old ones are still there if you need them.
I merely take the time to set up some basic registrations, such as slow 6/8, 4/4, shuffle, R n' Roll, Country Rock-shuffle-waltz-2/4, a Bequine or Rhumba, and a Jazz swing.
With these I can easily and quickly get to a setup for most any song. Also in the registration, I set my favorite guitar, sax, organ and piano sounds.
First time I ever bought a Ketron (X1), on the advice of Uncle Dave, it came in about 3:00 p.m. and I had a job at 7. I talked to Dave on the phone and he said I wouldn't have any problem using it that night.
WRONG! It took me 3-5 minutes between songs. I was completely ignorant of the OS.
By the end of the night, it was better, but I was a total wreck. I did have my other kb in the van, but I was determined to make it through. It was a small friendly crowd, thank God.
Also, I would never take an unfamiliar board without having my old one handy for a backup.
It took me two weeks to get confident enough to take the Audya out. It will take me many months of exploration to start to realize all its capabilities. That is, when I get the replacement in.
DonM

Well first of all you have to consider the market, which for arrangers is the home market, (The fact that they are used by Pros, has little relevance to the manufacture as they are so small in number) and as always a lot of home users get stuck in a rut, (This is why music lessons are good, as they constantly give you something to aim for) and to get out of it, rather then fully investigate their board, (Usually because the manuals suck (Is it deliberate that manufactures make such poor manuals) they look for something new to give them inspiration and gratification.
When a new board comes out, the hype is so intensified that owners in a rut jump at the chance the get something new, (Even if in reality it is only a marginal improvement) and while this attitude prevails (Encouraged by the manufactures) the manufactures will keep pumping it for all it is worth.
Contrast this with the Pro users (And the growing number of focussed home users) who worked out a long time ago that �It�s not what you play, but how you play that counts�
What makes my Wersi Abacus so invaluable to me, (I�m just a home player BTW) is that I can purchase what �I� want for it, (From virtually every music software manufacture out there) and not be dictated to by the manufacture, plus in addition I have saved myself shed loads of cash in the process, as I never need to buy a new board. (Or learn a new OS)
Great post BTW Chas

Bill

Great topic, chas.

In my case, I've stuck with the i30 because it does all that I need it to do, simple as that. Like Gary's 3000 or Diki's G70, it's been a tireless and dependable workhorse. I recently bought a used Pa1XPRO and have spent quite a bit of time tweaking, getting all my registrations from the i30 in there, but modifying this and that. And the 1X, being a much deeper board, I'm always finding new things to incorporate. My wife calls me a sort of musical proctologist because I'm always digging around looking for something new ('cause I know it's in there). And it won't be out on gigs until I can pretty much fly it blind. I have a drawback with the harmonizer on it, but that's another story.

Plus, because I'm used to the Korg way of doing things, I didn't want to jump ship to another manufacturer and have to learn a new way. Familiarity, in this case, breeds less stress.

I agree with abacus that it's not what you play, etc. I can think of many instances where I've worked with some pretty respected session guys whose gear you'd think belonged in a thrift store - till they put their hands on it.

I have a feeling that the majority of 'frequent fliers' upgrade to get new styles. I don't think that it is a coincidence that manufacturers rarely ever make new styles easily backwards compatible, forcing those that want new TOTL styles to buy the new arranger, or wait six months to a year before someone figures out how to convert them...

I also don't think it is a coincidence that the manufacturers have made no attempt to install a usable copy protection system for third party styles (unless it is keyed solely to them, like IDC) because, if skilled third party style creators could actually make any MONEY from making styles, fewer new arrangers would be sold!

But I disagree with how little you all think (or most of you) that arrangers are designed with the professional in mind. To be honest, if they took a survey that asked what of the advanced features were actually USED by 'home' users, they would drop them in a flash! But they would lose ALL their 'professional' sales instantly...

For me (back to the main subject), a keyboard is simply a tool to interpret what I want to play. With 'what I want to play' as the most important aspect, not what the MACHINE wants to play. For the kind of music I usually do (not exactly cutting edge modern stuff, for sure!), my main needs are that the 'bread and butter' stuff be as good as possible, The drums be live sounding (but easy to edit!), and the keybed I actually play them on be as responsive and comfortable as possible. Once that is found, most other considerations are secondary.

I take a LONG time between arrangers primarily because I have always felt that, if you HAVE bought a new arranger, you should make 100% use of all its' new sounds and capabilities, and that involves completely revamping your entire show. Edit every style, edit every SMF, utilize every new capability. That takes a LOT of time, and hey, I'm as lazy as the next guy

Yes, I'm one of the 'one registration per song' type players. I like ALL the sounds I use for it tweaked to perfection. I like ALL the Part volumes tweaked (or muted!) to perfection. I want the splits exactly where they need to be, for this song in this key. I want the registration (UPG) to call up the SMF if I use one. I want all the buttons and controllers mapped to what this song in particular needs.

And so on and so forth.

The job of doing this from scratch is herculean, so rather than swap keyboards more frequently, and skip or only partially do this task, I'd rather stick to what I have until something SO advanced comes out that I HAVE to change. Took ten years on the G1000. Four and counting on the G70...

I'm sorry, but I have to say it... If you can't get nearly ten years of enjoyment and productivity out of a TOTL arranger, you simply aren't using it to its' fullest. New styles can be had (or made ), new sounds can be had (or made), new capabilities can often be had with software upgrades (sorry, Yamaha users!), little used capabilities fully explored (how many of us have even TRIED syncing arranger play with SMF play and mixed it up during one song?), and, finally, as mastery of the instrument finally gets close, there's the most important thing of all...

Switch OFF as much of the arranger as possible, and try to play it all (or as much as is humanly possible) yourself... You certainly won't need the latest greatest to do THAT, yet that is the hardest task to do..!

If Roland brought out a new arranger tomorrow, what would I do? This is a tough one... You know, even if Roland addressed ALL my remaining niggles with the G70 (and that's all most of them are), but didn't improve the sounds in a VERY significant way, I'm not really sure I would migrate. I want EVERYTHING in an arranger to be significantly better before I move, because, when all is said and done, it's the AUDIENCE that should be able to tell the improvement, not you!

I am fairly sure that, other than a few new styles and the odd SA2 sound, few audience members that heard a player go from T2 to T3 knew anything much had changed. But just recently, I installed a new SRX card in my G70 (got some with the backup... thanks, Vince) and have been working hard tweaking some T2 style conversions up to usability levels. And people have been commenting like crazy. Mission accomplished, without buying a new model arranger!

Before you reach for that credit card, try simply working harder at making your sound YOUR sound. It might save you a fortune...

While I agree with Diki's philosophy (in theory ), I just wanted to point out that it was not my intent in this post, to bring anyone around to any particular way of thinking or to suggest that one approach to, or motivation for, upgrading was more valid than any other. Let's face it, if everyone kept their arrangers for 10 years, not only would the used market dry up completely (thus depriving Diki of his relatively inexpensive backup ), but with new sales down say 75%, what would be the motivation for manufacturers to invest in R&D, new technology, ongoing style development, or even continue in this market. In other words, I'm not sure that one solution fits all, no matter how practical it seems on the surface.

I'll be patiently awaiting Diki's rebuttal .

chas

I simply wish that what I write isn't taken as some sort of instruction to be followed... it's JMO, always was, always will be. That this has to follow what I say is absurd...

And while I DO believe that, if you feel the need to upgrade constantly, it IS likely that you haven't exhausted the possibilities in what you currently have, who says that you HAVE TO exhaust them? I certainly don't want to suggest what you should or should not do. As chas quite rightly points out, if we all kept our arrangers that length of time, the industry would be in FAR worse shape than it already is!

I wonder what it means that I have zero interest in trying out other brand keyboards?



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Bill in Dayton

UNLESS.........the gov't started a 'cash for clunkers' program for old keyboards .

chas

Good 'un, chas!

Bill, what it means is that you're quite happy with your current gear. That's the best reason there is for not wanting to make any changes.

Amen to that...

But, just like women... just 'cos I'm LOOKING doesn't mean I'm going to take them home!

The only thing I'd like to do at this point is ADD to what I already have, and until the arranger manufacturers make it easy to MIDI two together, it seems a threesome will have to remain a fantasy

Right. As married men, you should go to THEIR house.



chas

DIKI....

Just to let you know that I really like your post about getting the most from whatever your keyboard....

There are still parts of the Technics KN7000 that I have yet to master... Just playing it and trying different styles with the same piece, creating new sounds, tweaking styles and playing are great enjoyment....

While reading your post I wondered if you have owned/played any of the Technics KN series arrangers?

Finally.... Not all women even want to consider going to a man's place or allowing him to accompany her to her home!

Elizabeth

------------------

Diki's married?



-mike

Before this gets out of hand, we were all kidding.

chas

Ditto.

-mike

Hey chas, you an ol' jazzer and all that. Remember this one? Eddie 'Cleanhead' Vinson, Back Door Blues.

I took me the front door in
But I had to take me the back door out
I took me the front door in
But I had to take me the back door right on out
I was sleepin' mighty peaceful
When I heard somebody start on in to shout (an' it sounded like a man's voice to me)

and so the guy's the sorry tale goes on.

Sorry if I got a bit off topic there - it just brought that old standby to mind.

Know it? I was the inspiration for it .
(sorry Elizabeth)



chas

Don't I know that one all too well...!

And, to dispel the rumors, I am currently single (don't rush all at once, ladies! ), having been a widower since 2001...

Hi,
for me, keyboards are only a hobby.
First 10 years, new models didn't arrive quickly enough. I think new functions & progressively better quality sounds kept me upgrading.
Always had a Technics plus owned a few rolands & a couple of early korgs.

Had a 2 to 3 year break round about 1999, sold everything except a Technics arranger piano, bought a 9000pro roundabout 2002, not overly wrapped, bought a 2nd hand VA7 from a friend, (variphrases attracted my attention) Rediscovered Technics ( KN7000 ) & the VA7 went out the door along with the 9000pro.

2004 Technics stopped production. Goodbye KN7, took up softsynth/software arrangers.
Missed not being able to share styles & stuff ( everyone used different soundsources).
Bought A Ketron SD1+, style editing functions were a total let down for me ( sold recently), bought a psr1500 a couple of years ago, wasn't sure about Yamaha, though I do like some of the styles, hence I didn't go fo a T series. I'll keep the psr, not worth much anyway.
Approx 18 months ago I bought the PA800.
Working out well for me. Plenty to keep my brain occupied.
Will I upgrade?, only if the new korg has something better to offer. Some super duper new style creation tools, or maybe the 8 fills & a break, ( that Diki seems to think we need haahaa)
Would I upgrade for additional styles, NO,
super duper sounds hmm maybe,but I doubt it. In the styles, better off sticking to factory sounds, for better quality melody sounds, I can load samples, or add a soundmodule or vsti player.

best wishes
Rikki

I've still got my PA1X-Pro (Elite) and I'm still happy with it.

Bought it in 2007-ish (in fact, that was the reason I joined these boards, to get advice on arrangers!) and when I upgrade, it will either be to a PA2X or a Roland - if they release something absolutely Mindblowing.

I'm a working Pro and gig an average of 4 times a week.

The real reasons I will upgrade are:

1. Current board will become unreliable (ultimately) and, as I have no backup, I will simply have to move on to a rock solid instrument - simple as that.

2. Even more important than keeping current features & sounds wise (I have to, as I play a fair bit of Top40/Rap/RnB) is.....UI.

USER INTERFACE is now my Number 1 concern with ANY future keyboard I buy.

Having gotten so used to my iPhone, and just recently my new HP Touchsmart Tablet PC, I need a Keyboard that allows great live interfacing AND complex editing if I need it.

Let's face it, all TOTL keyboards are good enough soundwise for almost anything, but HOW we can use that power EASILY, QUICKLY and FLEXIBLY is now the Holy Grail as far as I'm concerned.