I just do not like mono, I'm afraid even with the Bose Compact, I won't be satisfied. Roland has the BA-330 coming, I need a shrink or advice please.

Take TWO Bose Compacts and call me in the morning.


--Dr. Mac

Zuki, if stereo is your thing, I don't know of anything as small, light and good (and pricey) as two Compacts. I have two Roland CM-30's which can be chained to handle stereo. They will do NH jobs easily. Or, start looking into small powered speakers.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 09-22-2009).]

That's where I am right now ... since the Podiums seemed to have 'shat the bed' for mostly everyone - but Fran - pushing them full time, I'm back to square one ... I just don't like the idea of going for $400 to $500 each ...
t.

Jim,

At one time, I felt the same--stereo was the only way to go. Then I stepped out in front of the sound system with a wireless mic and fired up some midi files. I A/B tested several systems, stereo V/S Bose mono. In the end, Bose won--hands down.

Now, before a major mine is better than yours confrontation begins, I love the sound of stereo. But, and this is a big but(not butt), I quickly discovered that my audiences, by and large, were not hearing anything other than mono. And, the sound quality I experienced from the Bose L1 and L1 Compact was far and away superior to anything I tested, even some of the best of the best conventional sound systems.

Some performers have gone to a pair of L1 Compacts just so they will have stereo. And, some of those same performers clearly stated the only person that was benefiting from the stereo created by a pair of L1 Compacts was the performer--not the audience.

The best advice I have is if YOU don't like what you hear, send it back to Bose. Their 45-day, no-questions-asked return policy is the best in the industry. As for ME, I'll never go back to using a conventional sound system.

Good Luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

I'm getting a pair of Bose Compacts...I loved the sound of the two Bose L1's in stereo, and got a lot of great feedback from my audience, so I expect the overall same performance from the two Compacts, only they'll be less loud, and, less in weight.

I don't need the volume of the L1's, but I want to keep the "room filling" sound that Bose does so nicely...the stereo sweet spot is hugely enlarged, more so than a conventional system.

I tried a pair of Compacts out in the store, and the room was pretty big, and they sounded terrific.

I'm thinking, in the unlikely event that one went down (they make great stuff), the other would get me by quite well as a back-up; still filling the room quite well...just not as rich as in stereo.

Ian

To be honest, the Bose system is not necessarily your best choice if you ARE looking for a stereo experience for your audience (it'll be pretty good for you, though). But the whole POINT of the Bose system is to shove out a planar waveform, and produce an even, non-localized sound all over the room.

Stereo, OTOH, works best with systems that DO localize the sound source, so that L & R sources are better defined.

Technically, the only true way to A/B a mono system and a stereo system is to go between a mono PAS playing mono, and a stereo system playing stereo. Putting mono through a two speaker system is going to introduce phase artifacts, and volume differences need to be very carefully aligned.

The thing which tips the balance, for me at least, is how poorly many arranger's true stereo sounds (from stereo samples, NOT mono samples panned around the field) collapse to mono. Yes, in fairness, IF they did collapse without going phasey, mono would be a decent alternative, especially for larger or irregular shaped venues, but I can hear it pretty plainly on a LOT of stereo sounds. It isn't the same sound in mono. It is hollow and phasey and just not the same.

Fix that, and things are far more even in the choice. There is a HUGE difference in sound between a stereo sound, played in stereo and listened to so far away that it can no longer be discerned as stereo, and a stereo sound that is collapsed to mono internally, and played through the one speaker. Phase issues are so much more apparent using the latter scheme.

Primarily, this effects our stereo piano sounds, but I can also often hear a big difference in the sound of the effects themselves, reverbs sound pinched, choruses get weird and phasey, Leslie sims go all electronic sounding, etc..

There's a reason there is a MONO button on any decent recording console, or on most of our DAW's. Checking that your sound isn't going to change radically when you listen to it in mono is a basic part of mixing. It is a shame that few designing arranger sound sets (and some WS's too) and effects structures seem to be aware of this necessary step...

Excellent post, Diki.

I've played my G70 stereo and mono thru CM-30's and noticed very little difference, if any. Since usng the Compact (mono) the audience reaction has been markedly pro Bose. I like the sound improvement too.

Now there is no way two $200 speakers are gonna sound as good and strong as a $1000 setup, but the fact that I noticed no marked changed in mono or stereo usung the CM-30's tells me stereo in a live setting, especialy spacious rooms, means that much. In fact, if you were to achieve true stereo separation each half of the audience would be missing a significant part of the mix. Just my opinion.

The Leslie sim, and Chorus, Delay, and Cross Delay, and many other effects are designed to be most effective (no pun intended) in stereo.

That's why I'm going with TWO Compacts...I was very pleased with the sound of the L1's in stereo, even at quite a distance from the source, and even at various points around the room there was quite a difference as opposed to one.

I can't explain why the stereo sweet spot is so large (perhaps, Diki can lend his expertise), but it is greatly enhanced, and made the purchase of two (rather expensive) systems well worth it.

Now, that I'm no longer doing concerts, I sold the L1's and I am investing in a pair of Bose Compacts, which do the same thing to the stereo signal as the bigger system.

My PSR-S900 sounds terrific through the stereo Bose, and the Tyros3 is even better...your PA-800 will really come alive through two Compacts.

Ian

Yea go for it it's only money.

Thank you gentlemen

I put the sgl Podium behind me on the last job tonight and it gagged me. There seems to be a big void in the overall instrument balance, almost like listening through a vacuum. The only thing that was acceptable were the guitars (Everly Bros stuff, etc), but the pianos, drums and all else seemed shrill and run together. I really hated the way I sounded tonight....

Now Cass and Gary, you are correct, there is a huge difference in quality vs Bose and the 45 days will tell the story. I'm willing to give it a shot. And Gary, I can get my stereo kicks from the PA800 speakers I truly believe the audience really would never know.

Ian, would love to have a stereo Compact system, but my objective is to keep the load light and quick.

Tony, sorry to confuse you even more Let me know what you decide!

Diki, you're way over my head - speak English please

Mac - 2 Bose systems and I'll be waking up from YOUR couch for morning therapy.

I've been using two Compacts for several months now. I guess because I CAN. There was absolutely zero difference in audience response when I went from one to two, but I like it so what the heck.
I've also played a few times where I moved my stuff and took both Compacts. Setup time is still very short. It only takes about one or two additional minutes to set up the second system.
I also like the fact that if one system goes out, and have a backup plan in place. (Just use the other).
I will say this: I much prefer using two Compacts to one of the original Bose L1s.
DonM

Jim-

You and I play a lot of the same places in and around Cincy/Dayton. I'm familiar with a lot of the rooms you play. Up until last Christmas, I set up a conventional PA for all my jobs. Two 15's on poles behind me crossed to aim at my head.

It sounded glorious...

Last December, I switched to an L1 with a tone engine. Did it sound different to me? Yes. Not in a bad way...it was clearer, I felt like I was hearing details from the T2 and even my vocals that I hadn't been before.

Since that time, I've simply lost track on how many times clients have commented on how much they like my sound. I've always gotten good feedback that way, but it spiked up after I switched.

I agree with Gary and Don. I think a single Bose compact would really be worth a hard look.

Good luck however this plays out for you...If you need a hand, remember I'm right up the road...




------------------
Bill in Dayton

True, in a sense, Donny, as good gear always pays for itself rather quickly, but perhaps Zuki is better off going only with one Compact system (which will work satisfactorily)...and it may be wise that he does not try two in stereo, as from then on, he won't be quite as happy with the single system.

That's what happened to me.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-23-2009).]

Thanks all. I have this weird feeling that I won't like the Bose Compact. I'm going to take both Podium 8s today and really pay attention to stereo vs the mono the last few days. I'm still interested in the new Roland stereo PA in a box coming late fall. Appreciate the feedback.

1. I had that fear that after paying all that money the Bose wouldn't match my expectations. Well, it exceeded my expectations. I can't say that the Bose sound is DIFFERENT, it's not; it BETTER. As Bill said, you'll hear more clearly; possibly even little things in your styles that you never heard before. I think you'll like he Bose.

2. Again, the stereo from a regular set of speakers will not be the same as anything from a Bose. You could prefer the standard stereo to a mono Bose, but I think the quality of the Bose sound will win you over.

3. The new Roland portable PA will not be what you expect. What I've read turned me off completely; and it's gonna be decently expensive, to boot.

Best of luck to you Zuki. My experience using the Compact is that I set it down, take off the cover, add the columns, plug it in, plug in my keyboard (with mic) and that's it. And it probably takes as long as it took you to read this to do all that. Plus it's one unit of 25 lbs. and a sling bag weighing 5lb. For the most part I'm a penny-pincher, but buying the Bose Copact was definitely worth the extra bucks for me.

Thanks again Cass and Bill. Now I await the UPS truck You all have me excited. DonM's comment makes the best sense for me: Since the audience couldn't tell the difference, I might as well stick with one unit, but enjoy the stereo field that I hear from my keyboard speakers. I do like the notion of the unit placed behind me and it did sound very awesome on that one job the other night.

Cass, what didn't you like about the Roland spec?

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020045.html has everything we know so far...
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1025&ParentId=72 is the Roland site.

My concerns are that this looks a lot like 2 CM-30's with some added EFX put into one box. Now the CM-30's are fine in themselves, but this is slated for the $800 market, maybe $700 street. I doubt the speakers will be able to deliver the bass as you want it. Roland never gives an output wattage, so I'm guessing it's in their usual 30-50 watt range. This looks like an offshute of their new street cube technology - loud and brassy with batteries, ala Juno-Di. Roland says: "Powerful high-quality stereo sound for audiences of up to 80 people." That doesn't sound like much. And judging by the model number BA = battery amp, 330 = one or two 30 watt amps.
I would be happy to be proven wrong, but my gut feeling is that this Roland is too expensive and may not meet expectations. I hope I'm wrong.

Want Roland stereo - check out their AC60 and 90 amps... http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=899


[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 09-23-2009).]

Zuki, you've received advice from many who gig for a living. I do not and in the big picture, I've only been playing gigs just about 4 years. Never did gig in my youth either. So I'm not as qualified as those who are in the trenches day in and day out.

Here's what I think. For many years I played my portable keyboards thru my home stereo system ( 20 year old Denon power amp) and thru a set of Klipsch floor speakers. I don't know the model numbers but when I made the purchase as I recall it cost me about $1200.

I enjoyed what I would classify as "Hi-Fidelity" sound when playing various keyboards thru the set up. Then 4 years ago I inherited a Peavey keyboard amp, then bought KC 150, then a Barbetta 31c, then the CM30 cube monitors. I could never find that "Hi-Fidelity" sound I was looking for. Once I bought the Bose L1 everything changed. I finally got what I was looking for, the best sound I've heard hands down of any keyboard amp I owned and it more closely resembled my home system. When the compact came along I read the postings by those who are in the trenches everyday, they sold me. I'm sold on the compact and would not want to be without it. When I'm not gigging and it's set up at home, we play an iPod thru it and enjoy great sound that carries throughout the house. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-23-2009).]

Asking for some advice. A lot of parties I do go like this. Live music and voacals on my G100 for the first 1-2 hrs., then DJ the heavey dance stuff from there on with a few live numbers thrown in.
Would two Bose compacts handle this?-mainly the kickin bass of the CD dance tracks.

Thanks

Bill in NJ

No Bill, not too well I'm afraid. They do very nice for filling the room with a lovely balanced and clean sound from your keyboard, but they, most definitely, are not thumpin' kickin' speakers for DJ'ing.

There is a 7ft. Steinway Grand in the main room of the UU church I attend (once a year). The pianist is a concert pianist and professor of music at one of the local universities. The piano is not amped (the room has wonderful acoustics).

I've discovered that whether I'm in the front row or the back (my usual spot), for the life of me, I cannot hear the stereo separation. Maybe I'm deaf in one ear. What do you think?

chas

An acoustic grand piano is very, very rarely mic'd with one microphone...usually it is at least two...that's why the pianos in our keyboards are stereo.

With our keyboards, it is mainly done to enhance the player's experience, although having stereo for making effects more effective (pun intended) is sure nice to have in a PA system.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-23-2009).]

I hope that post was tongue in cheek, chas...

If there are no mikes, there will NEVER be phase issues. The problem comes about because the piano is a very non-localized sound - sound comes from the strings, the hammers, the soundboard, bouncing off the lid, case and many other directions. As such, there's a lot of different places near a piano where it sounds different. Miking a piano in mono is a piece of cake. You basically just keep moving the mike around until you hit the sweet spot. The trouble starts when you want stereo. Firstly, no two spots on the piano soundfield sound the same. And, because the mikes are close together, phase differences between the mikes are often apparent. When miking in stereo, moving one of the mikes even a half an inch can make a lot of difference to the sound, especially when collapsed to mono.

There are a LOT more knowledgeable people than I posting on the web about this topic. If you are really interested, Google away... Just be prepared to find out it's MUCH harder, and a much more complex issue than you might have thought.

But a really good exercise to help you realize just HOW different the world sounds when miked, as opposed to hearing it through the miracle of your ears and brain (because most of what we THINK we hear is the brain doing some very fancy signal processing to what we ACTUALLY hear) is, if you have one, use a battery powered mike pre to drive a set of good cans, stick them on, and walk around your house, studio, street (be careful! ) and listen to how different it sounds. The mike isn't lying (if it's a decent one). That's how things really sound. It's your ears and mostly your brain making sense of that jumble, and turning into something different.

The ART of miking things is to get a sound on tape that sounds like how your brain hears it, NOT how it actually is...

I can't wait to audition a BA-300. Could be a great stereo alternative to the Bose systems. And cheaper too, presumably.

Interesting that someone else might think the Roland worthy. I bought one today for $559 delivered (but will have to wait for the 11/09 release). I have to hear for myself before totally dismissing.

Zuki, there's no doubt that Roland makes great sound equipment too. And since sound is very subjective, you must ultimately rely on your ears to make this decision. We look forward to rading your review. Definitely, at $599 the BA 330 would be a good bargain if it does the trick.

Bill, you might want to consider adding a powered sub to go with the Compacts. Bose does advertise that the Compact is good for small DJing jobs. YGIAGAM