Are (2) Bose Compacts that much better than a good quality pair of powered monitors (Mackie, JBL, etc) at 2x the price? Can you elaborate why?

I unloaded the MackieSRM150 and probably the Podiums soon and need to make a purchase.
Thanks for replies from everyone that will............

Especially for a single act, IMHO, they are "that" good.
Ciao,
Jerry

Yes ..... Yes ..... Yes!!! I have two.
I had Yorkville E10p speakers they sounded great ... L1 compact Better.
Had the 200 watt 10" subs to go with them sounded great. Total weight 168 lbs.
L1 compact 58 lbs. The Yorkville set up was louder (no wonder at a total of 1100 watts) but not better. If you are a vocalist you will really love the Bose. And if you move your stuff alot, your back will "Really" love the Bose!!!

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 10-02-2009).]

Zuki dont you already have a Bose compact? IMO one is fine for what you do at NH's...
SUM the L/R signal and enjoy.

Well, I auditioned the Bose compact recently, looking to reduce the weight carried on gigs. I have the L1 model II, which is not "light" when you consider the 4 separate components to lug around. To my ear(s), the compact was no match for the model II. Yes, less costly and lighter weight; but I'd rather carry a little more weight with a much bigger, fuller sound on the material I do. Give me a few more years and I'll be singing a different tune on size and weight. I'm almost there, now. Sure wish Bose sold a stereo unit, especially for the benefit of backing tracks that are mixed to stereo.

*No more long-throw horns or loaded woofer cabinets that put the sound out further in front of the show than most clubs have the length or depth to allow.

*No more horn "hoot".

*No more separate monitor system, the performer(s) hear exactly what the audience hears. (This is a biggie IMO)

*No more complaints about being too loud from management. Waiters and waitresses can actually hear orders and talk easily to customers *while the show is going on*.

*This one is absolutely subjective and is very likely due to the fact that for the moment, comparison is to other more conventional PA systems used with other acts, but I've never gotten more compliments about the sound from people who work in the scene day in and day out, the aforementioned waiters and waitresses, bartenders, managers, etc. And these folks are usually quite jaded about such things.

The above report is based on the use of a pair of Bose L-1 Compacts. A good friend of mine who lives in another city also bought a pair of 'em after hearing my talk of them over the phone. He reported the very same things that I report above. We are both jazz based acts. Singers are absolutely knocked out by our systems.


--Mac

Having run my sound thru Mackie, Roland, Peavey, Toa and others, I must say my one Compact would certainly not fill some of the spaces I played in my younger days. But for my present needs and maybe even for past needs (5-6 yrs) the Compact is surprisingly powerful with a full sound.

Take a look at the unit, a 14" main speaker stick with 6 small speakers and a smallish sub unit with an 8" speaker thru a 150 watt amplifier. How many of us would run out for a standard unit like that? I trust not many. But somehow Bose has put together a package that has excellent sound and projection quality, yet weighs only 29 lbs. Is it expensive? Yes, definitely but I haven't read one complaint from any of the owners here - can't say that for all the other smaller PA owners.

Lastly, I told myself that I'd never pay that kind of money for a Bose L1 system, especially just for me and my smaller venues. The Compact lets me play a little stronger without ever hearing a complaint about loudness from any of the seniors I play for. The bass is very sufficient without being overbearing for these groups of 30-100 and I am confident I could handle a larger space and crowd with ease. And the fact that I can carry it easier than a monitor is a bonus.

Yeah, I've come to believe that Bose is/are that good.

Jim-

Again, we play many of the same accounts. We also play the same kinds of music. Our biggest different is that I do Clubs, Dances, etc. on the weekends and last we talked, you don't really cover those kinds of gigs.

My sound was always thought to be very good when I used a conventional PA, based on feedback from my clients. I switched to a single L1 last December and by Spring I was getting compliments that my sound was even better.

With one, I'm obviously not in stereo.

Its one trip in from the car and one trip back. Set up/tear down takes about 20 minutes.

My back pain has vanished...

Sonically, it seems clearer to me. There's details I've heard from my kb and even vocals I didn't notice before.

Do I miss a stereo PA? In a small way, but not enough to consider going back. I think 2 compacts would make for a very very nice sound, but I'm not sure its what you're looking for.

I would try a single compact again for longer than you auditioned it last time. You get 45 days to return it. Try it for a month, with a tone engine, and THEN see how you feel overall.

As always, good luck!

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-03-2009).]

Let me add too that EQ'ing is almost a thing of the past. The Compact has no real EQ controls, everything is done pre-Compact if need be. I did a quick EQ adjustment on my s900 before yesterday's job and that's all it took - no more adjusting of volumes, gains, EQ's for different venues...

Using a T1 tone engine might really ramp up the sound too - I'm thinking it would, for sure. Bill uses one with his L1 and I think it makes a big difference. It handles dynamic changes well without being boomy or needing compression.

Thanks fellas.Hmmm...not seen one reply about going a quality Mack,EON route!

I was thinking EON 510 with covers for the same price and they come in at 17 lbs.

My objective is to sound the Very best I can - super detail for audience ears.

So it appears that ONE Bose would rival a pair of conventional. From this, I'm assuming Bosi (as Mason coined) would be incredibly superior in sound?

I would like to hear comments from conventional users too.

Thanks everyone

Jim,

The best advice I have is to create a midi file using YOUR keyboard, something that will play for about three minutes. Set up the system, play the midi file using the keyboard, and walk through the venue. Set the keyboard's EQs accordingly and you'll be amazed.

As for audience size, my largest thus far has been about 250 people at an outdoor venue. It was a large courtyard measuring approximately 300' X 150'. I never had to turn the L1 Compact's master volume beyond the 12 O'clock position, while the keyboard's master volume was set at the 1 O'clock position.

I sincerely believe the biggest obstacle to overcome is living with modest volume levels. For me, having used conventional sound systems for several decades, I was comfortable with volume levels where monster speakers were blowing the windows out of the building so audience members sitting 75 feet away could hear what you were playing and singing. With the Bose system, this is no longer the case--everyone hears pretty much the same volume and the clarity is unmatched by any conventional sound system.

Ironically, even some of the old school DJs and KJs in my part of the world have made the switch to Bose L1s and L1 Compacts. And, these are guys and gals that do loads of weddings for younger audiences. The local GC guy told me he cannot keep the L1 and L1 Compacts in stock. They tend to go out the door the same day they arrive in the store. As for returns, he said it's extremely rare to have one returned because the person didn't like the sound.

Good luck,

Gary

Zuki, the best advice I can give you, is to try two Bose Compacts...that's what I did, and believe me, I am fussy about sound.

The stereo sweet spot is incredibly large, and, as Gary has already said, the biggest obstacle, is getting used to the modest sound levels, as they are perfectly sufficient, because of the Bosi's(?) ability to fill the room.

Yes, a tad more fuss, but, I feel it's worth it to use two, and retain stereo.

You can A/B one Compact vs. two, and make your own judgement, but if you're like me, and are particular about your sound, as well as wanting to hear your PA-800 the way it was designed to be heard (in stereo), you might be very tempted to go with a pair.

Unlike arranger keyboards, you will only need to buy a great PA once.

Also, you will automatically have a back-up, as you can always use one system in an emergency.

Ian

I think my views are well known already, but I will echo what Ian and Gary said.
I'm using two Compacts, and love it. Diners can (and do) sit four feet from one of my speakers and don't complain. I can also be heard just about as clearly in the back of the room. Waiters can take orders. I even have people take cell phone calls sometimes without getting up and leaving the room.
When I want to rev it up later in the evening, no problem. They will rock pretty good when you crank them.
I've only used by conventional L1's one time since I got the Compacts, and it turned out that time the big units were unnecessary.
In fact I have sold them.
DonM

I used to have both JBL EONS & Mackie SRM450's who sound pretty good. However the Bose L1's (model 1) and my sub (dB SUB15) give the best sound impression I ever experienced. (No need for monitor speakers or in-ears)
Just put them 2-3 meters behind us, great sound and no mike feedback, not even at high sound levels.

I have been doing it this way with great results..... Most small gigs, up to about 125pp I use one Bose compact...med 150-250 I use the Bose Compact and one Mackie Thump powered 15" set on the floor hooked to the Bose external out...this acts like a Sub & adds plenty of bottom end for filling up the room, the Bose top pole hits the back of the room.... and for my bigger venues 300-500pp I hook up the Bose in the middle of the stage and add Two Mackie Thump powered 15"'s daisy chained on each side...the sound is incredible to say the least....crisp highs & super deep lows to make em dance.All bases covered all lightweight.

Well, you have.

I think every one of us has used conventional stuff first.

BTW -- I run a Mackie mixer into the two L-1 compacts when more inputs are needed. Works fine.

--Mac

Jim - I think you've hit the motherlode of SZ Compact lovers. It seems each of us has different music needs, yet the Bose Compact fulfills them all. That's a pretty good endoresment if you ask me. Personally, I have no need for stereo, so I can get by with one Compact. I keep a EV SXb120 handy for imaginary large places. If you are not convinced by words or your own ears, then certainly go with what works best for you.

OK, thanks to all - one unit at a time, but will try again. I gave up on the 800 once and sure am glad I reconsidered

You've already ruled out mono, zuki. Preferred even the Podium's to the Compact in mono...

Bite the bullet, get two Compacts, move on to more important things

Will get 2 in time, but remember, I'm married with 3 children

For example, I told the wife today I was going back to Bose and she kindly replied "do you have to talk about that on my birthday?"



[This message has been edited by zuki (edited 10-03-2009).]

Man, you really play all sorts of jobs. Where do you find all these?

I don't understand what SUM means. Please explain how I'd hook the 800 into one Bose.

"SUM" the signal to mono simply means connecting both L and R outputs together into one mono input.

This can be accomplished with use of a simple Y cable adaptor if your keyboard does not have a MONO output, which most do. Use of the Mono output is the same thing exactly, it adds the two signals mathematically into one, yielding the SUM of the two signals, amplitude-wise.


--Mac

Don,
How do you hook up the 2 Compacts - chain 'em or left-right out of a mixer?
I do a several outdoor festivals a year and the L1 Model I with 2 bass bins has always been adequate. I would like to determine if 2 Compacts with maybe what Donny suggested - a Thumper - would be 'adequate'?
Ciao,
Jerry

Jerry use two seperate outs L/R for stereo...chain the using the Bose aux out for mono.......or use two Bose hooked to L/R main outs on your mixer & hook the powered 15" speaker or sub(s) to the sub outs on the mixer to have a seperate Vol control.

A small mackie mixer like this should fit your needs...
http://www.mackie.com/home/showimage.html?u=/products/802vlz3/photos/802VLZ3.jpg

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-04-2009).]

I've been using a mixer, with left and right outs going to each Compact.
I will probably take the mixer out of my setup with the Audya though, since it has two mic inputs, aux ins, extensive e.q.s, harmonizer, etc.
I'll keep a smal mixer in the car in case I need a backup system if the Audya should fail and I have to use E50 and/or laptop.
I always have a backup for everything anyway.
DonM

I use the L & R outputs of the mixer also, each one feeding its own Compact.

Well, followed advice and went with (1) Compact today. I'll be using it mono for awhile and will pick up another early next year. Thanks for the guidance.I can imagine it'll be well worth the expense.

Zuki did you SUM L/R outputs from you KB using a "Y" adapter?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-05-2009).]

When I used one Compact, I had best results going from L&R stereo outputs into the stereo inputs on the Compact. You will need the correct cable or adapters of course.
DonM

I know it's a chunk of extra work, zuki, but if you are going for a mono rig for a while, you MIGHT consider re-tweaking your registrations so they work better in mono. You've already noticed that stereo pads and effects, etc. get perceived quite differently in mono...

If you go through your setups, and re-tweak them to correct for what gets lost, then save that whole set as a 'Mono Set', you may not get so discouraged with having to go mono (plus you'll still have a set tweaked for stereo when you go back to that).

Not that that should stop you from getting that second Compact ASAP...

Interesting point comes up, there, DonM.

Currently, I'm coming out of the 'mono' jack on my Korg, but from what you're saying, might there be an improvement coming out of the L and R jacks into a Y adapter to go into my Roland Cube 100? I thought there'd be no difference whether things were summed within the keyboard itself or at the Y adapter. Can you comment, please?

124 listen to both hookups and as you A/B them you will hear a difference.I find summing at the keybord does well for me.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-05-2009).]

I don't know about the Korg, but Yamahas definitely sound better to me the way I said. Roland, not so much, but I still feel it sounds a little better.
DonM

Unless you are very careful at making sure both systems (use mono out of the keyboard or sum to mono with a mixer) come out with the EXACT same volume, you can fool yourself into thinking that there is a difference between two things that, if heard under tighter controlled conditions, you might not hear a thing.

Primarily, only the Yamaha PSR series has had any serious accusations of a major difference between the mono out and summing the stereo outs externally. And, as of yet, to my knowledge, no-one has ever done a serious comparison of the two to find out definitively if this IS the case or not...

If I had a PSR, it would take me ten minutes to answer this question definitively. Sad that no Yamaha owners are willing to find out for sure...

I did extensive tests with at least three different Yamahas. The result was that they sound better in stereo, and they sound better when using separate outs, rather than the summed outs, when using mono. They sounded great in mono, but, to me at least, better in stereo.
The difference in the other brands is far less pronounced, if audible at all, once you get a fair distance away.
DonM

If you have the time, it is a piece of cake to empirically test the issue. Record a short SMF of arranger play, maybe something with the piano as lead (seems to be one of the voices that show up problems the quickest).

Now record it to your computer in stereo. Record it one more time using ONLY the mono out. Now sum to mono the stereo file IN THE COMPUTER. Compare the computer mono file to the arranger mono file... (you might also double check to make sure both files have exactly the same peak amplitude, and adjust in the computer if one is a hair louder).

Be great to have a definitive answer to the issue, and this might also give you leverage with Yamaha to get them to change whatever they are doing internally to make the mono such a poor comparison. If it is widely spread around that there REALLY is something wrong with their summing electronics, they might get around to fixing it to beat the bad press...

Worth a try, anyway

So, I suspect that, in general on-the-gig conditions, there'd be no radical difference. Lab results are one thing, on-the-gig results are another. Bit like MPG on cars, then?

Sorry, but lab results ARE on the gig results, but with none of that subjective cr@p thrown in for good measure...

Look, everyone knows you get a certain amount of phase cancellation when you sum things to mono. But how much depends on several factors. How good do the actual stereo samples collapse to mono, and then how good the electronics do the summing.

Yamaha SEEM to have a double whammy, with piano samples and effects that are deliberately (I think) a certain amount out of phase (helps artificially widen the stereo image when heard in stereo - good for the built in speakers), but also, reportedly, poor summing internally. It has been stated many times (and I really have no doubt about the issue), but it WOULD be nice if someone took the few minutes it would take to actually test this out definitively, so we could ALL be aware that you should NEVER hook a PSR up with just the one cord...

So Don, I'm assuming that I should go from my L/R outputs into the RCA stereo Bose ins? Interesting. I thought that regardless of running stereo in, only one speaker will still produce mono? I'm confused. How should I hook this thing up on Friday? The Korg L or R outputs BOTH produce a mono output (according to the manual, it doesn't matter which one to use - btw, the Korg tech desk didn't know) Thanks all.

Having 'guest appeared' on Don's stage, I can attest that what he is saying is true ... beautiful crisp sound, and I was singing into the mic directly in front of the speakers and there was ZERO sign of feedback ...
t.

Oh, it will still be Mono, but it just seems to be a fuller signal when I do it that way.
The Compact has "stereo" inputs for a reason, so maybe it routes it a little better.
DonM

zuki ... my kn6000 has left and right line outs with the R showing R+L ... but even if I am not running stereo (which most of the time I have not been), the kb sounds fuller when I have both the L and R line outs plugged in ...
t.

Are you sure the unit won't be overloaded running the L/R into an RCA input? I think I discussed this with Bose and they mentioned that, but I'll check again tomorrow. I have all week.

There are two RCA inputs, l and r. That's what they are designed for.
DonM

RCA inputs are generally designed for relatively low level line outputs, such as you get from CD players etc..

The thing is, the only thing that is happening is SOMEWHERE, two stereo signals are being summed to a mono signal. Either in the arranger itself, or in the Bose. But nothing else should be happening.

Trouble is, at some point you are either losing signal or gaining it, it you claim to be able to hear things get 'fuller' (which is usually a perception of a volume increase, as well as POSSIBLY a timbral change as well).

The only way to be SURE that what you are hearing is not simply a result of it simply being a bit louder (you can easily read up anywhere about the ear's tendency to equate small volume differences into perceived EQ changes - look up 'equal loudness contour' if you want more info) is to do the test I outlined earlier.

But you can't equate what happens with a Yamaha with what will also be true for a Korg, or Roland, or anything else. One thing that is obvious from the PSR series is that Yamaha have cut a LOT of corners to produce the thing as inexpensively as possible. Inexpensive case, inexpensive action, inexpensive buttons, etc., etc., (but don't get me wrong, it's still a great arranger, but simply built for the home market, who, to be fair, are unlikely to ever hear it in mono anyway)... It strikes me as likely that they MIGHT have cut corners with the stereo to mono summing, and perhaps chosen to do it passively (basically, simply connecting the two wires together like using a splitter cable) rather than actively (using electronics and circuits to do it electronically). There's a REASON you don't hook gear together by simply touching the wires. I mixer is MUCH more than simply connecting the wires. There's all sorts of electronic buffers, resistors, capacitors, whatever, to ensure that the signal remains the same as it gets mixed.

Now, I'm not doing anything but speculating, but this might be what is making the PSR's so different for their owners in mono externally or internally mixed. But until SOMEONE gets the urge to actually test this out, that's all it's ever going to be.

Speculation.

Personally, I HAVE tested my G70, and hear no difference between internally and externally mixed mono. And, to be honest, for any other non-budget arranger, I would be very surprised if there was a difference. PA800, I wouldn't imagine that there's any difference between using one cord mono out to mono in, and using a stereo cord to a stereo in (upon which the mixer mixes it to mono), other than PERHAPS a change in gain slightly.

Trouble is, that small change in gain MIGHT still lead you to perceive a small timbral change. But it will likely be very small. Nowhere near what PSR users report, anyway.

We've been talking about this issue for YEARS. Surely SOMEONE is willing to take a few minutes to answer the question once and for all?

Again, both Gary Diamond and I, along with Hank and Semilive, extensively tested the Yamahas' ability to sum to mono. We all easily agreed, it wasn't done correctly inside the keyboard. Gary can even tell you why, I think.
I just know it's better when you use both outputs.
Regarding the "stereo" ins on the Compact. Yes, the volume is greater when you use both. It sounds fuller. Not certain if that is the entire reason, and don't care. It sounds fuller when you use both.
DonM

I guess things can be lab-tested ad infinitum, but it's all in the psychoacoustics, the aural perception of the listener that counts in the end.

I spoke with Bose technical gurus today and they said there is no difference in running mono or RCA stereo. They did encourage to experiment for myself and I may hear a difference.

Thanks, Don. Gary, feel free to enlighten us, if you will...

It's unsurprising you'll get a volume bump when you are feeding two inputs (1+1=2, if I remember rightly ), but I think the 'more fuller' comment, at least in Yamaha's case, is MUCH more to do with the summing engine (and phase issues with the samples and effects themselves) than mere volume. If it were equal across manufacturers, it might simply be the volume issue, but it seems that the Yamaha's have definite issues.

Thing is, if someone REALLY quantified it, made it public and kept the issue on the front burner at the various Yamaha and SZ forums, there's a possibility that it MIGHT get addressed by Yamaha. But (in reference to another thread at SZ about how Yamaha owners rarely admit to ANY fault) if it is hidden, rarely talked about, and dismissed as no 'fault' at all, what is Yamaha's incentive to fix it?

Squeaky wheel gets the grease...