Just asking.
It seems as if when Yamaha releases a new arranger, some persons swear that it is perfect and Yamaha does not and can not do anything to improve it. They would say that the styles and sounds are perfect and nothing needs to be done to improve on the keyboard.

Are they lying? Are they brainwashed? Are they biased?
Just asking.

When the T2 came out, it was the best and no improvements needed to be made. But then the T3 comes out then they say it sounds better than the T2. How can that be.

When the new arranger comes out, not only do they say it sounds good but they actually dump the old one and spend money to get the new one.


Same thing with the S900.
Now the S 910 is out they say it is better than the S 900. But sound and style wise, when the S 900 came out no improvements needed to be made.
How can that be.

Just asking.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-06-2009).]

Hey, your wife thought you were perfect too, when you first got married. How about now?

chas

Pretty much applies to about any product... or people (as Chas implied).

I never understand why people buy new cars when theirs is barely three years old. Or why people buy cars in the first place.

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

I think it's simply a result of the progress of technology that improves with the release of each new model - technology that gives a bit more edge and appeal - along with slick marketing strategy.

And then there's the fact that we tire of our equipment and as typical consumers, we anticipate the next great improvement the manufacturers have conditioned us to expect.

Tim

Well take for example other brands of arrangers and persons who use those other brands.
The Roland G70. People who own that keyboard say it fits their needs but admit it could do with some improvements. Same thing with the Korg PA2x pro and Ketron. But not Yamaha users. The sounds and styles on the Yamaha arranger are the best and there is nothing that Yamaha could do to make it better. That is of course until the newest yamaha arranger hits the market.
If the S 900 was that perfect when it first came out, what did Yamaha do to the S 910 that makes it that compelling to get it to replace the S 900? And, doesn�t that mean that the statement at first that the S 900 was perfect and could not be improved incorrect?

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-06-2009).]

Ok, I'll tell you what I REALLY think. It's because arranger keyboards (and to a lesser degree, synths in general) are tech gadgets, not musical instruments (in the traditional sense). Nobody trades in their 25 yr. old Steinway or their 50 yr. old Stradivarius. They actually INCREASE in value and desirability with age. Hey even a cherry '59 'B3' (without even a transpose button) might fetch up to 10 or 15 times that of it's (BEST ) technologically advanced 'clone' (Nord C1/C2).

People have no desire to replace good quality REAL instruments. However, they can't wait to upgrade their computers. Once we stop deluding ourselves into thinking that holding a chord while a computer plays the song is a legitimate art form, then the answer to To The Genesis' question is obvious. JMO.

chas

Ehh,, but you must find the chords :-)
And why is a DJ a artist ?
Aint we all operators in a large PC world.
Push the right button and have fun with our toys.

Have Fun
Impuls

True. They are the "best" at that present time.

Things get better...just like phones, televisions, DVD players...they all improve; but at the time they were the "best" that technology allowed.

I don't recall anyone saying that Yamaha arrangers couldn't be improved...I do recall several people, including me, saying that they were "the best arranger for our needs."

If you think everyone who owns a Tyros2/3 or PSR thinks it's perfect, then you haven't visited any of the Yamaha forums.

When the Hammond B-3 came out, playing it was not considered a "legitimate art form", and, in fact, some organists still argue that only a pipe organ (non-electric) is the real deal.

Is a Nord C1, a Wersi, or a Roland VK-8 the real deal? Not according to the B-3 purists.

Some (not all) jazz musicians mistakenly put themselves in an elite category, sadly mistaking a niche market for elitism.

Is a DJ a legitimate art form? Is rap music actually music? Will Mac marry Rachel?

Bottom line for me...I use an arranger for most of my gigs, a sin to the purist, but it is me I am trying to please, not them. I make no apologies. Period.

Yes, the Yamaha arranger is perfect for my needs.

Can it be improved? Of course.

Technology moves on and things get better...hopefully.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-06-2009).]

It depends how you interpret �Can�t be improved�

Most manufacture have to release updates to their newly released arrangers as there are either bugs, or sounds and styles are just not up to scratch.

Yamaha very seldom have to bring out anything other then minor updates, (And those are rare) as they get it right first time.

Large or major updates will necessitate a new board, (That�s just progress) but until this is released the owners just enjoy what they have got, as it suits their current needs and does what it says on the tin.

Just check the various arranger forums, and you will find that Yamaha owners are the most satisfied out there.

How do they do this?
They do their research, and provide what the vast majority of people want. (That�s why amongst other things you will not find a Yamaha 76 note arranger or one with a heavy weight)

Glad you said "hopefully". Technology certainly doesn't guarantee "better". Wasn't it technology that gave us the atomic bomb, styrofoam cups, Eggbeaters, and menu driven phone answering systems (for 911 calls).

chas

Be careful what you ask for ....improving technology at this point will slowly phase out the operator all together...

To avoid that one should make themselves a better player.

I would get rid of a 50-year old Stradivarius, Chas. It would be a fake anyway.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

Oops, you got me .

Now I'm gonna' start worrying about that 2008 Prophet 5 this guy just sold me. Damn.

chas

There is only one thing that is perfect, and that are moments in time, you should be glad if you have those memmories...

NO

NO

No


Just really happy with the sound, styles, and ease of use, and the many compliments on the sound I receive, when playing for the audience.

Thanks for asking.

Jerry

Topic:
Is a Yamaha arranger really perfect as people say it is when the arranger is released

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NO, because if it was, the factory would get hard times develope and sell new models
to continue gain big profit to the owners.

GJ

Yes Yamahas have many outstanding features, but they aren't perfect for sure.
I haven't had one in a year or so, but I can recall several flaws that they refuse to address.
A vocal harmonizer that blips EVERY time you engage it while singing a note (through the same vocal processor that was introduced on the PSR8000),
The worst-sounding rim shot in captivity (on drum kits that have not significantly changed in many generations).
Inability to include a simple usable slow Country Waltz. (You have to use converted ones from other brands, or make your own).
Refusal to include foot switch capabilities except for single pedals (unless you want to buy a very expensive, very large and very heavy MFC-10).
I could go on, but you get the point.
No arranger is close to perfect. There are compromises to be made with all of them. Some of the compromises are more or less important to the individual user, depending on his or her priorities and needs.
DonM

"No arranger is close to perfect. There are compromises to be made with all of them. Some of the compromises are more or less important to the individual user, depending on his or her priorities and needs."

Agree 100 %.

Yamaha take a different approach for their arrangers. Is no the same path that Korg, or Roland or Ketron follow. Some users are happy with Yamaha, some others with Korg, etc.
One thing that admire from Yamaha is that when they release a keyboard, usually no many flaws are found. We maybe won't be happy with what they release related to sounds, key bed, etc, but we can't find many bugs.
Yamaha never release an OS update to an existing keyboard, or provide you with new styles for free. For Yamaha, a new OS release mean a new keyboard.
They have an excellent Beta Testing program.
Korg, for example do OS upgrades and usually provide new sounds and styles with each upgrade.
Yamaha and Roland never get in contact with the customers base in forums like this, but in the korgforums.com you see Korg executives browsing and some times posting.

Whith what ever brand you are happy, I am too.

(excuse some bad English expressions, learning the language)

Hey, not all Yamahas are perfect...

Some of you will remember a couple years back when it took 4 - count them - 4 S900 deliveries until I got one that was right.

I could have given up after the 1st bad one, but I persevered because of my faith in Yamaha quality (knowing this was an abberation, not a normal quality control issue)

PLUS Steve Demming, who is a gem of a guy, walked me through the process of returns and replacements until I was happy...and I was rewarded for my loyalty.

Now, today, I'm the happy owner of a brand new perfectly-operating S910 - no return necessary this time around!

Tim

Steve has always been very helpful, and fairly accessible as well.
Even he couldn't help with a glaring bug on the PSR2000, which they never corrected.
In the vocal harmony section, the Karaoke Girl setting was wrong. It worked correctly on all the predecessors, but on the 2000 it wouldn't take out the lead voice, and it took extensive workaround editing to get it even close tow orking right. Steve did come up with a workaround, but Yamaha refused to acknowledge that it wasn't right, even though it was right on everything before it everything after it. It just wasn't important enough to them to fix it. I believe at the time, even though the 2000 was advertised as having the OS in software, it actually required a hardware fix to upgrade the OS.
Just remembering that there were always glitches from every manufacturer.
DonM

Yamaha's do have very sscolid OS's, that's for sure. I think that in the 1500 performances that I did with the S900, I only had to turn the keyboard off and on three times.

If you recall, the S900 had some quality control issues, and dozens of them had to be exchanged. I had two screwed up ones. Of the two replacements, one needed a new screen after 20 months. This cost me $125. One of the a/c adapters needed repair which cost me $20.

I completely resonate with the frustrations people have with the vocalizer, which is sometimes serviceable. The S910 has a couple of new parameters on the vocalizer to adjust it to the singer's vocal range.

I wish the S900/910 had a dedicated TALK button. I do a little bit of humorous patter with my show, and it's annoying having to press two buttons to turn TALK on and off. Sometimes I forget to turn it off, and I play half the song with a lower volume and no reverb.

I think the drums have improved in the last ten years, but Yamaha is probably behind the others for a really live feel. The drums sound somewhat processed. I have never had a complaint at a live gig, but I have heard comments - not among arranger players - that the recordings that I have made of my own songs could benefit from a more live drum feel.

I am surprised that of the T3 expansion packs that Yamaha came out with, that none included a drum pack, even though it makes sense because I believe that in the T3's OS just like with the PSRs, you can't use a USER voice in a style.

I think the Yamaha's have a great layout with few glitches. I have never thought that I had the perfect keyboard. But I do think I have a fantastic keyboard.

One thing that I think Yamaha should do is make it so that if a voice/style/multipad file is missing from a registration, instead of loading the registration without it, instead, like Windows, the keyboard should give a message that it can't find that file and to ask if you want to locate it or cancel. Just think, if I want to change the name of a folder that my styles are in, none of my registrations will find that style.

Another great thing about the PSR line is how light the keyboard is.

Whenever the seniors I perform for ask how much the keyboard cost, I tell them the retail value - $1700 or $1750, and these folks who lived through times when a candybar cost 3 cents, are shocked that a board that sounds like a symphony orchestra can be so cheap. I have to agree.

Beakybird

Great post Larry & so true!