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#273824 - 10/16/09 07:46 AM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Larry, I purchased a similar product at Radio Shack several years ago, then switched and went with Cable Wrap, which also does an outstanding job in organizing and protecting your cables. I've always been a stickler about players with a rats-nest of cables coming from their keyboards and over the floors. It just doesn't look professional, and it can be hazardous. Good post, Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#273832 - 10/16/09 02:52 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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I have a couple of arranger playing clients that do not use any switch type pedal, sustain or otherwise.
These people were generally former Electone (or other brand of organ)players.
They did, however, express a lot of interest in a volume (or swell) pedal, although with touch sensitive keys, it is not really a total necessity.
I couldn't ( or at least, not willingly) do a gig without a sustain pedal.
I use it for fading out voices as well as on the piano sounds.
There is a "sustain" button on the panel of most arrangers, but this generally makes sounds bleed into themselves, if not used very carefully.
I carry two extra sustain pedals...that's how much I need to have it.
I'd be interested in Donny's technique as well.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#273836 - 10/16/09 03:35 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by Dnj: Don't get me wrong Ian...I have used pedals in the past many times especially before arrangers in my band years using multiple KBs...I am not a Piano player but a Singer first who accompanies my singing in many ways using Styles, SMF, Mp3, backing tracks. As a trained Accordion player at age 7 as a kid my technique is different. Yes, of course...the accordion. I played one for years, had an old Salanti 120 bass, and you're so right...didn't need a pedal...it was all technique, so I understand where you are coming from. I've also seen and heard you play an arranger, and you are a fine player...a total pro...or, as it's been said about others here on SZ, the real deal. I was mainly a piano player, started when I was 4, so the sustain pedal is very much a part of my technique.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#273837 - 10/16/09 03:38 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
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Even for sounds that traditionally don't need a sustain (basically, anything OTHER than the pianos, E. Pianos, etc.), there is still, IMO, an enormous need for it on an arranger. So often, either your RH is needed to do things like change keyboard Parts, change Tones, hit transpose buttons, change from full to split modes, navigating to the next registration, etc., etc., or your LH likewise... How do you do this without what you are playing chopping off? A string line played 'held by hand' ties up your hand. Use the sustain, and now you can press a button, move a slider, etc.. Few of the instruments we try to emulate needed to do anything else other than just play. Arranger use (if you are actually playing much ) needs a lot of button input. Some way of holding a note while you press the buttons could come in VERY handy..! In the spirit of 'use everything you can' surely adding a sustain for when it can do something you can't do any other way is appropriate? (And damn! Hasn't everybody heard of TinyURL.com yet? ) [This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-16-2009).]
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#273838 - 10/16/09 03:59 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Originally posted by ianmcnll: Yes, of course...the accordion. I played one for years, had an old Salanti 120 bass, and you're so right...didn't need a pedal...it was all technique, so I understand where you are coming from.
I've also seen and heard you play an arranger, and you are a fine player...a total pro...or, as it's been said about others here on SZ, the real deal.
I was mainly a piano player, started when I was 4, so the sustain pedal is very much a part of my technique. Ian I understand how a sustain pedal is a crucial part of playing piano as trained also......when i accompany someone at a gig who wants to sing a song I usually go Octave Piano/Strings & Accmp Off because most cannot keep up with an arranger KB & I can better follow their horrible timing ... I just consider pedals of any kind just another players tool as is charts, lyrics etc etc .....some use them some don't no big deal. What matters is how you use what you have and how it sounds.
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#273839 - 10/16/09 04:20 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
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So... how does it sound? Got anything that is just you playing the piano, no sustain? I've been in situations on other people's rigs with no sustain, and sure, you can find SOMETHING that kind of works, but generally, it's so limited it barely qualifies as a piano part... (and I came from an accordion background, too. Doesn't mean I can't adapt) I'm afraid this is getting like someone saying you CAN play with just one finger (in either hand!). SURE you can... but is it as good as playing with five (in each hand)? I can play a melody with my nose Doesn't mean it SOUNDS any good, though I am surprised. This seems like such an arbitrary self imposed limitation to save you what, ONE insignificantly small piece of gear? I can understand trading away a 45 lbs. arranger, to save your back. But a sustain pedal (tablet style) weighs nothing, takes up no room, and adds enormously to your abilities. Or does it? [This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-16-2009).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#273840 - 10/16/09 09:33 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
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I sat down and tried playing my Tyros without using a sustain pedal...
Can it be done? Absolutely. Depending on the kind of tune, you can get away with it. I'd say it comes to a style type thing...it must suit Donny's needs. In arranger mode, the style just vamps along...its not hard to make it work that way.
I do a lot of chording with both hands and use a fair amount of fills, instrument changes, modulations, etc. I would miss it if I didn't have it.
But, if you turn the accmp off and go to straight piano, uh, its extremely limiting. It basicially sounds like **** . This is probably why all quality pianos come with a sustain pedal.
Donny said he sometimes turns off the accmp. sometimes for guest singers and uses an octave piano/strings setting. I tried that too-trying to play full chords everything took on a Ferrante & Teischer (sp?) feel to it. Its cool, for a pass through-maybe a full song...if it was the right one...
ON a side note-I find it easier for guests singers to sing with the full arranger as they then get a solid drum beat and whatnot to assist them. Using just a piano with no sustain, uh...yuck....
But hey, Donny's comfortable with it so who cares, eh? He knows what he's doing...
------------------ Bill in Dayton
[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-16-2009).]
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Bill in Dayton
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#273844 - 10/17/09 08:28 AM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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99.9% Now you see how different we utilize & play an arranger KB. I use my own custom tweaked OTS sounds basically within my "easy 20" setups in this order...Piano,EP,/Strings,... Growl Sax, Trumpet,Guitars, Accordion... Organ, Solo Strings, Brass combos.. They are all "ANCHOR Instruments" because as a OMB arranger artist you must become the "WHOLE" band and all its components as if they were there playing with you. That is my mindset when I play. I had a 7 PC dance band 25 years, and now a Power Single 17yrs and still to this day want to feel and sound like that Band all by myself....that is what I strive for on stage every day. but, this all means nothing unless you can hear & see it performed right? So we can all learn from each other.. We can talk until the cows come home, but listening & watching as I always say is worth a thousand words. Who cares what others are doing....do it YOUR WAY and make it count! [This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2009).]
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#273846 - 10/19/09 09:54 AM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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I have lots of arranger clients that do not use a sustain pedal.
When you think of it, it is really only designed to use with piano sounds, although some of us use it to good advantage with other sounds.
I can easily think of three pro arranger players I know, that don't use a pedal.
Many players come to the arranger after being trained on another instrument that does not use a sustain pedal...lots of guitar players, as well as organists, and accordion players.
I find it handy, but that doesn't mean that everyone else should.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#273848 - 10/19/09 12:18 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
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It's not 'another' technique. Even if you HAVE a sustain pedal, you should be able to smoothly hold voices with traditional technique. The thing is, the sustain pedal ADDS to that technique, and allows you to play things you CAN'T without it.
Every one of us that went through standard piano lessons can remember that much piano music (especially beginner stuff) had the pedal marks written out, and how adamant our teachers were that you not use it unless indicated. You are SUPPOSED to do what Donny does a lot of the time, but when the piece calls for it, there the sustain pedal is!
I'm sorry, but you AREN'T playing an accordion any more. You are playing an ARRANGER. And, an arranger has sustain pedals. This is simply absurd. I'm pretty sure how Donny would react to someone that decided that accordion playing shouldn't involve any use of the left hand buttons. Now SURE... you CAN play the accordion's RH side only, but that doesn't REALLY count as playing the accordion, does it? And playing a keyboard without a sustain pedal falls into the same category... If you play a piano patch, you should play it pianistically. I seem to recall all SORTS of advice from His Duality about remembering to play each sound idiomatically. Well, to play any piano type sound (including Rhodes, Wurli, etc.), to be idiomatic, you need a sustain pedal.
Why not take your own advice, Donny?
[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-19-2009).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#273851 - 10/19/09 12:45 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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The granddaddy of the arranger, the home organ (with auto accompaniment) did not have a sustain pedal, and in fact, early single keyboard arrangers didn't have them either. In any case, most arrangers are shipped without a pedal (including some TOTL) so it is basically an option...so, they must think that not everyone wants/needs a pedal. Not every arranger player uses piano sounds as often as some others...those of us trained on the piano, or who were self taught on the instrument, need the sustain pedal. There are players who do not...lots of them...I do clinics and meet lots of players...I know of which I speak.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#273852 - 10/19/09 01:30 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
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Use of the sustain pedal isn't simply about pianism. I am surprised you don't mention the other uses for it that transcend traditional uses, Ian. Want to hang a 'floater' string or organ note, while you move other parts around it? Double split the keyboard, hit and hold the string note, go to the other sound in the middle section. How about a pedal ostinato? Can't do that on a piano (decays too quickly, most of the time), a snap on an arranger with a sustain pedal... And if your sustain pedal input (or another input) can be programmed to do sostenuto, even better! Hold ONLY the note you are playing when pressed, all others play normally... Gives the impression of two hands when only one is available! Look, I'm not saying that Donny HAS to use a sustain pedal... if he wants to cripple his technique, why should I worry? What I am concerned with is anyone taking him seriously If you don't WANT your piano parts to sound like a piano player, if you don't WANT to be able to use your RH for voice selection or transpose or any of the myriad things it might need to do, without cutting off your melody, if you don't WANT smooth arpeggios (or arpeggios at all!), leave the pedal at home. Stick to organ sounds and organ voicing and organ (or accordion) technique. I am just assuming that this MIGHT not be the area you want to ignore the most! Look, Donny heavily uses MP3's, SMF's and styles that have piano parts with sustain already in them. It's not like he is NOT using piano sounds with no sustain in it. Just what HE plays. If you want to, you can do the same. Heck, any of us can try this at home (or on the gig!) any time we want. But I can't see anyone that actually LEARNED to use a sustain pedal stopping using it because it's an IMPROVEMENT. This is far more just one old guy saying 'I never learned, and I can't learn now (too convinced I'm right about everything ), and if my piano parts suffer for it, so what? I'm still making a living'. Well, so did Tiny Tim, but I bet you don't say 'get rid of the arranger and take up the ukelele! ' Piano teachers, on the whole, introduce the use of the sustain pedal after just a few weeks or months of basic fingering. But hey, what do they know? You know, I bet, were I to say that I NEVER used volume pedals when playing organ patches, all the organ players happily denying the usefulness of the sustain pedal would say I'm CRAZY... part of getting a good organ sound is the use of the swell pedal. And it is. And I do (use a swell pedal, that is). You see, I'm not so ready to dismiss centuries of established wisdom and technique. And neither should you...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#273854 - 10/19/09 02:33 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Ian, I agree. And, like a number of arranger performers, I do not use a sustain pedal--even whey playing piano. Some folks use them--some folks don't! Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#273857 - 10/19/09 03:04 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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In my case, the piano is the least used voice on my keyboard. I use the growl and sweet tenor sax a lot, several guitars, harmonica, flutes, strings, brass, trumpet, lots of neat things other than the grand piano. When I do use the piano, more often than not, I have it layered with strings, which IMO, provides a lot of depth and quality. Beneath the keyboard are two foot switches, one for the Harmony-M and one for the keyboard. Most of the time the one connected to the keyboard is set to harmony/echo, which is sometimes used for the piano voices. It's not that I don't know how, when, or cannot use the sustain, most of the time I just don't feel the need to use it. Cheers, Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#273859 - 10/19/09 05:17 PM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
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This is NOT directed at Donny, Gary or anyone. This is just my approach and some background on how I approached using an arranger kb several years ago. I had never touched an arranger until one day about 5 years ago. I was blown away by its capabilities. Up until then my performances consisted of me using a digital piano and adding some strings at times. I also sang. As silly as this may sound to some, I had major reservations about being considered legitimate if I went the arranger route. I talked to other kb players in the area and my hometown of Pittsburgh about their thoughts on it. I talked to several long term clients as well as long term audience members. I knew there were guys who used midi files behind a big impressive keyboard but hardly played it. Other musicians, clients and yes even audience members at nursing homes could tell they weren't playing but in the end they liked them anyway. They would call them "cheesy" and that wasn't for me. The basic feedback I got across the board was that as long as they could still tell I was playing piano, the accmp. parts wouldn't take anything away. As long as I wasn't using it as a crutch, they felt it would be great. So, from day 1, I use piano as my main rhythym instrument. During the average one hour show, I'll turn all the accmp OFF totally on a few tunes and play a ballad or hymn just to provide some contrast and depth to my performance. For me, a sustain pedal is critical to play the way I know how to play. I don't use Midi files, mp3 files, OTS, etc. I use piano as my #1 instrument, usually strings/pad in #2 and a solo instrument like sax or trumpet in #3. I ride a style. I also modulate and sub in other solo instruments to keep it fresh. I've tried the other ways, I don't feel comfortable whatsoever and honestly feel very cheesy doing it that way. So, as my anchor instrument is a piano and I'm a piano player/vocalist it all makes sense to me and my audiences. If I didn't use piano as my main instrument and tried using a sax or a flute, well, that's pushing it too far for my money. I don't want there to be any doubt that there's a musician performing for you and its not just the technology dazzling you in some way that you can no longer tell if he's playing or not. I'm playing every chord through every song and you know what-If the power dies-"the show goes on!" Frankly, I don't think a performer who uses a mp3 or a midi file is as legit as someone who doesn't rely on such a significant contribution to perform the basic nuts & bolts of as song. You're moving towards a karaeoke kind of presentation that I have no interest in. I know there's guys here who do just that and god bless them. There's more than one way to skin a cat and if they can pull it off, that's great. A few years ago there was a new guy in the Dayton/CBus area trying to get into nursing homes. His promo stuff said he was a keyboard player and singer. Some of the places tried him out and he bombed. Why? Because all he knew how to do was to fire nice sounding midi files via his kb. He couldn't play. Audiences watched him never play the keys and within a month he was toast. Again, everyone's comfort zone is different. Hopefully this explanation helps everyone understand where I'm coming from on the sustain thing. Oh, what the hell is a "Power Single?" ------------------ Bill in Dayton [This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).] [This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]
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Bill in Dayton
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#273862 - 10/20/09 08:37 AM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Originally posted by Bill in Dayton: Oh, what the hell is a "Power Single?" The term "Power Single" in our business refers to a person who plays solo, w/ vocals but also commands the sound of a band in a way that can easily fill bigger gig venues vs just a solo piano, guitar alone or background restaurant player, lounge act, eg: Weddings, Dinner dances,Dance Clubs, etc, etc, or anything a Band or DJ could fill "By Yourself". This lets potential hiring clients categorize you vs other acts when booking work.
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#273863 - 10/20/09 08:56 AM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
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Originally posted by Dnj: The term "Power Single" in our business refers to a person who plays solo, w/ vocals but also commands the sound of a band in a way that can easily fill bigger gig venues vs just a solo piano, guitar alone or background restaurant player, lounge act, eg: Weddings, Dinner dances,Dance Clubs, etc, etc, or anything a Band or DJ could fill "By Yourself". This lets potential hiring clients categorize you vs other acts when booking work.
Ok, cool...the kind of stuff I've been doing already... ------------------ Bill in Dayton
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Bill in Dayton
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#273864 - 10/20/09 09:43 AM
Re: Cable Organizer
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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O.K. I played trumpet, bass, drums, guitar, more or less in that order. Then after college I got an organ. Almost the day arrangers were invented, I got one. I never used a sustain pedal on anything until a couple of years ago and there was a similar discussion on here. It made me think I was missing something. I generally had one available in case I had a piano player that wanted to sit it in and play a couple of songs. Anyway, I forced myself to start using one when I play piano rides, and sometimes Steel and Guitar, and I've found it does expand my tools. Like Donny and Gary, I don't use the piano sound as much as lots of you who came from piano backgrounds. The only song that I turn off everything and play full piano notes is Happy Birthday. I do use the pedal on Last Date, and when I take piano rides. My sustain pedal technique still pretty much sucks, but I'm getting better at it. Sometimes on slow nights, I use more piano and practice with the pedal to pass time. I also do stuff like never look at the keys, or make myself play in keys in which I'm not comfortable. It all adds to our arsenal. After many years of using a volume pedal I've just about replaced it with the sustain. In the past few years, when playing Ketron or Roland, I've begun using a 6-button footswitch, controlling vocal harmony on/off, break/fill, and various other functions depending on what I need. The left foot goes to the three switches on the left, the right foot the ones on the right. I also use the sustain pedal with the right foot. I try to make myself not look at any of the pedals. Now I'm thinking I need to start using a volume pedal again, because you can do other neat things with it, such as change sounds by assigning one to full up and one to full down. I have assigned sax to up and guitar to down, and can easily play the lead and "answer" parts on Honky-Tonk without ever letting go of the keys. Another tool. Listen, all this is a continuing learning experience. Although I never practice at home, working four to five hours every night gives you plenty of time to experiment. All of this stuff is important, but not as important as showing up on time, playing stuff your audience wants to hear, and being a professional when it comes to handling your business. I don't drink when I work, ever. (By the way, neither does my doctor. I had one once that did, but he died from it.) If I had drunk all the drinks nice people wanted to buy me over the past 30 or so years, there is no double I would have a pickled liver and be long dead, or at least out of work. Again, there are many important factors that go into being an entertainer, particularly if your family wants to eat regularly. DonM
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DonM
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