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#273823 - 10/16/09 07:34 AM Cable Organizer
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2227
I perform with three footswitches and four cables going from my footswitches to my PSR-S910 (See posts about Midi Solutions F1 Footswitch Controller). That's two going into the footswitch inputs and two going into the midi inputs.

Over the years, I had the two 1/4" cables tied together and the two midi cables tied together. It looked very sloppy.

At Home Depot, I came upon Buchanan Split Tube Cable Organizer http://www.summitsource.com/split-tube-o...217-p-4462.html which they sell in various widths depending on your needs.

I'll post a picture sometime. I look much, much more professional now, and this has shaved 30 seconds off of my setup since I don't have to untangle cables anymore.

Beakybird

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#273824 - 10/16/09 07:46 AM Re: Cable Organizer
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Larry,

I purchased a similar product at Radio Shack several years ago, then switched and went with Cable Wrap, which also does an outstanding job in organizing and protecting your cables. I've always been a stickler about players with a rats-nest of cables coming from their keyboards and over the floors. It just doesn't look professional, and it can be hazardous.

Good post,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#273825 - 10/16/09 07:46 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Larry although I use no pedals when I perform ......We have been using plastic cable wraps on all our wiring rig harnesses for gear and speakers for years from Radio Shack.....Gary turned me on to it years ago & it has really been a great organizational tool for wires ever since.

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#273826 - 10/16/09 08:16 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2227
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Larry although I use no pedals when I perform ......We have been using plastic cable wraps on all our wiring rig harnesses for gear and speakers for years from Radio Shack.....Gary turned me on to it years ago & it has really been a great organizational tool for wires ever since.


No pedals??? You don't use a sustain pedal?? OMG. You must be quite a pianist.

And what would I do without the Fill to Self pedal. I'm tapping on that a lot. You got to try it! Keeps your fingers on the keyboard, and you still get your fill.

I'll check out that RadioShack product.

Beakybird

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#273827 - 10/16/09 08:32 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Larry less is more in my style of playing..we all do it different, to me pedals are a crutch & hindrance vs lightning fast changes with my fingers regarding sounds, and fills..Piano is not a major concern for me a sustain pedal effect can be obtained with a particular fingering technique of playing as I do, plus it,s less to hook up and breakdown...Good luck with the way it works for you. No Pedals, No Charts, No lyrics, is the way I roll..

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#273828 - 10/16/09 10:50 AM Re: Cable Organizer
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
Good idea, yes. But it's probably better to keep power cord runs separate from signal cable runs, right?

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#273829 - 10/16/09 01:45 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
Got any audio of your superb pianistic skills without a sustain pedal, Donny? To think, all those teachers and virtuosi
not realizing there's a better way! Call Hanon! Roll over Beethoven!

BTW, it's nice to know you temper your prodigious technique with humility and modesty!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-16-2009).]
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#273830 - 10/16/09 01:57 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Zzzzzzzzzzz.......enjoy your pedals...I'm sure they work for you & others ....read my post again that's the way I roll, sorry if YOU don't approve & who really cares? Pianist I'm not...."Arranger" keybord Artist I am..

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#273831 - 10/16/09 02:08 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Larry less is more in my style of playing..we all do it different, to me pedals are a crutch & hindrance vs lightning fast changes with my fingers regarding sounds, and fills..Piano is not a major concern for me a sustain pedal effect can be obtained with a particular fingering technique of playing as I do, plus it,s less to hook up and breakdown...Good luck with the way it works for you. No Pedals, No Charts, No lyrics, is the way I roll..


I'd like to hear more about your technique without using a sustain pedal. I've never heard of a keyboard player who didn't use one. Could you expand on this?

Also, what percentage of your performances are using midi files vs. playing over a style?

Does the sustain technique work for both?




------------------
Bill in Dayton
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Bill in Dayton

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#273832 - 10/16/09 02:52 PM Re: Cable Organizer
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I have a couple of arranger playing clients that do not use any switch type pedal, sustain or otherwise.

These people were generally former Electone (or other brand of organ)players.

They did, however, express a lot of interest in a volume (or swell) pedal, although with touch sensitive keys, it is not really a total necessity.

I couldn't ( or at least, not willingly) do a gig without a sustain pedal.

I use it for fading out voices as well as on the piano sounds.

There is a "sustain" button on the panel of most arrangers, but this generally makes sounds bleed into themselves, if not used very carefully.

I carry two extra sustain pedals...that's how much I need to have it.

I'd be interested in Donny's technique as well.
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#273833 - 10/16/09 03:22 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Don't get me wrong Ian...I have used pedals in the past many times especially before arrangers in my band years using multiple KBs...I am not a Piano player but a Singer first who accompanies my singing in many ways using Styles, SMF, Mp3, backing tracks. As a trained Accordion player at age 7 as a kid my technique is different. When I switched to KB's in the late 60's I retained my skills of playing and still do to this day. The times I use a Piano patch in a arranger mix I let "some" of my fingers hold down notes when changing notes more then normal giving a pseudo sustain effect using the default efx already on that sound, it sounds great in the mix.
A few people at the jam asked me how I do it when I was playing and thought it was unique also. Playing in fingered mode your limited. I mix all the modes I use up for each gig depending on the venue...sometimes all three equally, sometimes styles all night at most 4 hr gigs.....at NH 1 hr shows it's All Live Styles always. We all play different there is n't a right or wrong way to do it......the only thing that matters is what it sounds like!

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#273834 - 10/16/09 03:25 PM Re: Cable Organizer
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
I come from an accordion background as well. So I can understand the no sustain pedal idea. After all there is no sustain pedal on an accordion.

BUT, I have never been able to apply the same technique to a piano. The sustain pedal, and indeed sostenuto and soft pedals, are really indispensable.

On an arranger keyboard, one does not really need a sustain pedal for the left hand. As we all know its a simple matter of press the chord shape (or one finger if thats your wont) and the keyboard does the rest.

If one is primarily a vocal artist, then perhaps no sustain pedal is required for the right hand either as it is probably doing single melody line solos.

I learnt jazz accordion (as well as the traditional stradella, plus what they called classical accordion) so I do a lot of chordal melody work with the right hand which relates really well on the piano keyboard. I have to admit the sustain pedal is a wonderful tool. But each to their own I suppose, and I can see how not using one would also work, particularly for an accordionist.

Dennis

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#273835 - 10/16/09 03:26 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Don't get me wrong Ian...I have used pedals in the past many times especially before arrangers in my band years using multiple KBs...I am not a Piano player but a Singer first who accompanies my singing in many ways using Styles, SMF, Mp3, backing tracks. As a trained Accordion player at age 7 as a kid my technique is different. When I switched to KB's in the late 60's I retained my skills of playing and still do to this day. The times I use a Piano patch in a arranger mix I let "some" of my fingers hold down notes when changing notes more then normal giving a pseudo sustain effect using the default efx already on that sound, it sounds great in the mix.
A few people at the jam asked me how I do it when I was playing and thought it was unique also. Playing in fingered mode your limited. I mix all the modes I use up for each gig depending on the venue...sometimes all three equally, sometimes styles all night at most 4 hr gigs.....at NH 1 hr shows it's All Live Styles always. We all play different there is n't a right or wrong way to do it......the only thing that matters is what it sounds like!


Interesting...

Do you ever change it up during your non- dance sets and turn off the accmp. and just play a piano/strings or pad combo?



------------------
Bill in Dayton
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Bill in Dayton

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#273836 - 10/16/09 03:35 PM Re: Cable Organizer
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Don't get me wrong Ian...I have used pedals in the past many times especially before arrangers in my band years using multiple KBs...I am not a Piano player but a Singer first who accompanies my singing in many ways using Styles, SMF, Mp3, backing tracks. As a trained Accordion player at age 7 as a kid my technique is different.


Yes, of course...the accordion. I played one for years, had an old Salanti 120 bass, and you're so right...didn't need a pedal...it was all technique, so I understand where you are coming from.

I've also seen and heard you play an arranger, and you are a fine player...a total pro...or, as it's been said about others here on SZ, the real deal.

I was mainly a piano player, started when I was 4, so the sustain pedal is very much a part of my technique.
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#273837 - 10/16/09 03:38 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
Even for sounds that traditionally don't need a sustain (basically, anything OTHER than the pianos,
E. Pianos, etc.), there is still, IMO, an enormous need for it on an arranger. So often, either your RH is
needed to do things like change keyboard Parts,
change Tones, hit transpose buttons, change from full to split modes, navigating to the next registration,
etc., etc., or your LH likewise...

How do you do this without what you are playing chopping off? A string line played 'held by hand' ties
up your hand. Use the sustain, and now you can press a button, move a slider, etc.. Few of the
instruments we try to emulate needed to do anything else other than just play. Arranger use (if you are
actually playing much ) needs a lot of button input. Some way of holding a note while you press the
buttons could come in VERY handy..!

In the spirit of 'use everything you can' surely adding a sustain for when it can do something you can't do
any other way is appropriate?

(And damn! Hasn't everybody heard of TinyURL.com yet? )


[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-16-2009).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#273838 - 10/16/09 03:59 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Yes, of course...the accordion. I played one for years, had an old Salanti 120 bass, and you're so right...didn't need a pedal...it was all technique, so I understand where you are coming from.

I've also seen and heard you play an arranger, and you are a fine player...a total pro...or, as it's been said about others here on SZ, the real deal.

I was mainly a piano player, started when I was 4, so the sustain pedal is very much a part of my technique.


Ian I understand how a sustain pedal is a crucial part of playing piano as trained also......when i accompany someone at a gig who wants to sing a song I usually go Octave Piano/Strings & Accmp Off because most cannot keep up with an arranger KB & I can better follow their horrible timing ... I just consider pedals of any kind just another players tool as is charts, lyrics etc etc .....some use them some don't no big deal.
What matters is how you use what you have and how it sounds.

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#273839 - 10/16/09 04:20 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
So... how does it sound? Got anything that is just you playing the piano, no sustain? I've been in
situations on other people's rigs with no sustain, and sure, you can find SOMETHING that kind of works,
but generally, it's so limited it barely qualifies as a piano part... (and I came from an accordion
background, too. Doesn't mean I can't adapt)

I'm afraid this is getting like someone saying you CAN play with just one finger (in either hand!). SURE you
can... but is it as good as playing with five (in each hand)? I can play a melody with my nose
Doesn't mean it SOUNDS any good, though

I am surprised. This seems like such an arbitrary self imposed limitation to save you what, ONE
insignificantly small piece of gear? I can understand trading away a 45 lbs. arranger, to save your back.
But a sustain pedal (tablet style) weighs nothing, takes up no room, and adds enormously to your abilities.

Or does it?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-16-2009).]
_________________________
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#273840 - 10/16/09 09:33 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
I sat down and tried playing my Tyros without using a sustain pedal...

Can it be done? Absolutely. Depending on the kind of tune, you can get away with it. I'd say it comes to a style type thing...it must suit Donny's needs. In arranger mode, the style just vamps along...its not hard to make it work that way.

I do a lot of chording with both hands and use a fair amount of fills, instrument changes, modulations, etc. I would miss it if I didn't have it.

But, if you turn the accmp off and go to straight piano, uh, its extremely limiting. It basicially sounds like **** . This is probably why all quality pianos come with a sustain pedal.

Donny said he sometimes turns off the accmp. sometimes for guest singers and uses an octave piano/strings setting. I tried that too-trying to play full chords everything took on a Ferrante & Teischer (sp?) feel to it. Its cool, for a pass through-maybe a full song...if it was the right one...

ON a side note-I find it easier for guests singers to sing with the full arranger as they then get a solid drum beat and whatnot to assist them. Using just a piano with no sustain, uh...yuck....

But hey, Donny's comfortable with it so who cares, eh? He knows what he's doing...


------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-16-2009).]
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#273841 - 10/16/09 10:49 PM Re: Cable Organizer
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
1) ... accordion sustain is accomplished by continuing to pull or push the bellows while holding down a note(s) ... that technique has NOTHING to do with sustaining a note on a keyboard or piano ...
2) ... try playing a 3 or 4 octave arpeggio or polyphonic chord on a kb without a sustain peddle - even in the midst of playing a song - and it sounds like crap ... unless someone is using 'lightning like' finger/hand movements to hit a sustain button before playing the notes ...

just my 2 cents worth ...

t.
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t. cool

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#273842 - 10/17/09 06:55 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
I never play arpeggios,kind of hard playing in fingered mode when your left hand is doing chords and other cool things ....
I have great multipads for that when needed I don't play piano within the style mix long enough during a song to warrant a sustain pedal, too many other sounds to utilize, but good luck to all who do.

As a side note there are many players I have seen who think they do but have no clue how to use a sustain pedal properly also....just like the joystick/mod wheel...over use of sustain sounds terrible. I have seen players mash down on a pedal for almost the entire song!! just horrible.




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2009).]

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#273843 - 10/17/09 07:53 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
I never play arpeggios,kind of hard playing in fingered mode when your left hand is doing chords and other cool things ....
I have great multipads for that when needed I don't play piano within the style mix long enough during a song to warrant a sustain pedal, too many other sounds to utilize, but good luck to all who do.

As a side note there are many players I have seen who think they do but have no clue how to use a sustain pedal properly also....just like the joystick/mod wheel...over use of sustain sounds terrible. I have seen players mash down on a pedal for almost the entire song!! just horrible.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2009).]



Donny-

I use full keyboard and use piano on 99.9% of my tunes until I hit the lead sections...

What's your "anchor" instrument when using an arranger? Piano, organ, something?

Are you using OTS's mostly?

------------------
Bill in Dayton
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Bill in Dayton

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#273844 - 10/17/09 08:28 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
99.9% Now you see how different we utilize & play an arranger KB. I use my own custom tweaked OTS sounds basically within my "easy 20" setups in this order...Piano,EP,/Strings,...
Growl Sax, Trumpet,Guitars, Accordion... Organ, Solo Strings,
Brass combos..

They are all "ANCHOR Instruments" because as a OMB arranger artist you must become the "WHOLE" band and all its components as if they were there playing with you. That is my mindset when I play. I had a 7 PC dance band 25 years, and now a Power Single 17yrs and still to this day want to feel and sound like that Band all by myself....that is what I strive for on stage every day.

but, this all means nothing unless you can hear & see it performed right? So we can all learn from each other..
We can talk until the cows come home, but listening & watching as I always say is worth a thousand words.

Who cares what others are doing....do it YOUR WAY and make it count!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2009).]

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#273845 - 10/19/09 09:06 AM Re: Cable Organizer
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Just my 2 cents worth - I rarely use a sustain pedal on the job. I do use piano patches, but do not necessarily use a sustain pedal. I am a converted organist/accordionist and am more comfortable with a volume pedal, if any. As Bill asked, I do not find myself just playing solo piano very often.

I do use a sustain pedal in the studio and I rely on it with my digital pianos at church and home. It's just that I find I don't use it enough to need it on a one hour job. Since I'm still using a majority of SMFs to styles, the song is pretty full and I can get by without one. Whatever...
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#273846 - 10/19/09 09:54 AM Re: Cable Organizer
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I have lots of arranger clients that do not use a sustain pedal.

When you think of it, it is really only designed to use with piano sounds, although some of us use it to good advantage with other sounds.

I can easily think of three pro arranger players I know, that don't use a pedal.

Many players come to the arranger after being trained on another instrument that does not use a sustain pedal...lots of guitar players, as well as organists, and accordion players.

I find it handy, but that doesn't mean that everyone else should.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#273847 - 10/19/09 10:38 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Gee I didn't know there were so many others who do it like me also. using the sustain pedal and joystick/Mod....is just another technique....some use it some don't,so no big deal....what is a big deal is what your music sounds like in the end result plain & simple.

Carry On

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#273848 - 10/19/09 12:18 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
It's not 'another' technique. Even if you HAVE a sustain pedal, you should be able to smoothly hold
voices with traditional technique. The thing is, the sustain pedal ADDS to that technique, and allows you
to play things you CAN'T without it.

Every one of us that went through standard piano lessons can remember that much piano music
(especially beginner stuff) had the pedal marks written out, and how adamant our teachers were
that you not use it unless indicated. You are SUPPOSED to do what Donny does a lot of the time,
but when the piece calls for it, there the sustain pedal is!

I'm sorry, but you AREN'T playing an accordion any more. You are playing an ARRANGER. And, an
arranger has sustain pedals. This is simply absurd. I'm pretty sure how Donny would react to someone
that decided that accordion playing shouldn't involve any use of the left hand buttons. Now SURE... you
CAN play the accordion's RH side only, but that doesn't REALLY count as playing the accordion, does
it? And playing a keyboard without a sustain pedal falls into the same category... If you play a piano
patch, you should play it pianistically. I seem to recall all SORTS of advice from His Duality about
remembering to play each sound idiomatically. Well, to play any piano type sound (including Rhodes,
Wurli, etc.), to be idiomatic, you need a sustain pedal.

Why not take your own advice, Donny?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-19-2009).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#273849 - 10/19/09 12:30 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Diki this will never end I've stated my opinion...there is no wrong or right....enjoy your way & I'll enjoy mine ok?.......

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#273850 - 10/19/09 12:30 PM Re: Cable Organizer
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
Since I'm still using a majority of SMFs to styles, the song is pretty full and I can get by without one. Whatever...


cass ... Right, whatever, ... but I am willing to bet that the piano parts on the SMF were created using a sustain pedal when appropriate ... ...

Diki, I admit to never having taken 'formal' piano lessons, but I would think piano teachers would not want young students to 'overuse' the sustain pedal so they don't teach it from the beginning, but don't they teach the proper use of it at sometime?

t.
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t. cool

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#273851 - 10/19/09 12:45 PM Re: Cable Organizer
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The granddaddy of the arranger, the home organ (with auto accompaniment) did not have a sustain pedal, and in fact, early single keyboard arrangers didn't have them either.

In any case, most arrangers are shipped without a pedal (including some TOTL) so it is basically an option...so, they must think that not everyone wants/needs a pedal.

Not every arranger player uses piano sounds as often as some others...those of us trained on the piano, or who were self taught on the instrument, need the sustain pedal. There are players who do not...lots of them...I do clinics and meet lots of players...I know of which I speak.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#273852 - 10/19/09 01:30 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
Use of the sustain pedal isn't simply about pianism. I am surprised you don't mention the other uses for it
that transcend traditional uses, Ian. Want to hang a 'floater' string or organ note, while you move other
parts around it? Double split the keyboard, hit and hold the string note, go to the other sound in the
middle section. How about a pedal ostinato? Can't do that on a piano (decays too quickly, most of the
time), a snap on an arranger with a sustain pedal...

And if your sustain pedal input (or another input) can be programmed to do sostenuto, even better! Hold
ONLY the note you are playing when pressed, all others play normally... Gives the impression of two
hands when only one is available!

Look, I'm not saying that Donny HAS to use a sustain pedal... if he wants to cripple his technique, why
should I worry? What I am concerned with is anyone taking him seriously If you
don't WANT your piano parts to sound like a piano player, if you don't WANT to be able to use your RH
for voice selection or transpose or any of the myriad things it might need to do, without cutting off your
melody, if you don't WANT smooth arpeggios (or arpeggios at all!), leave the pedal at home. Stick to
organ sounds and organ voicing and organ (or accordion) technique. I am just assuming that this
MIGHT not be the area you want to ignore the most!

Look, Donny heavily uses MP3's, SMF's and styles that have piano parts with sustain already in them.
It's not like he is NOT using piano sounds with no sustain in it. Just what HE plays. If you want to, you
can do the same. Heck, any of us can try this at home (or on the gig!) any time we want. But I can't
see anyone that actually LEARNED to use a sustain pedal stopping using it because it's an IMPROVEMENT.

This is far more just one old guy saying 'I never learned, and I can't learn now (too convinced I'm
right about everything ), and if my piano parts suffer for it, so what? I'm still making a living'. Well,
so did Tiny Tim, but I bet you don't say 'get rid of the arranger and take up the ukelele! '

Piano teachers, on the whole, introduce the use of the sustain pedal after just a few weeks or months of
basic fingering. But hey, what do they know?

You know, I bet, were I to say that I NEVER used volume pedals when playing organ patches, all the
organ players happily denying the usefulness of the sustain pedal would say I'm CRAZY... part of getting a
good organ sound is the use of the swell pedal. And it is. And I do (use a swell pedal, that is). You see, I'm
not so ready to dismiss centuries of established wisdom and technique. And neither should you...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#273853 - 10/19/09 02:17 PM Re: Cable Organizer
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I heard a guy play an arranger the other evening, and he used the sustain pedal on a trumpet voice, and then a Sax voice...

Some people should not be allowed to have them.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#273854 - 10/19/09 02:33 PM Re: Cable Organizer
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Ian,

I agree. And, like a number of arranger performers, I do not use a sustain pedal--even whey playing piano. Some folks use them--some folks don't!

Gary
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#273855 - 10/19/09 02:43 PM Re: Cable Organizer
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
I just found another couple of pennies, so I'll say a little more...
Diki - I'm really surprised at you. This is the first time in a long time that I've read you being so pontifical. C'mon now, it's only a silly pedal. Let it go. We get your point, but it's an optional thingy with me on the job. Anyway it makes the front of my arranger look too messy. So there...

But to continue, I almost always used a sustain pedal with the G70. And I obviously use the built in pedals on my digital keyboards. Maybe it's just something about playing a smaller keyboard... whatever it is, it is.
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#273856 - 10/19/09 02:47 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
So, because you MIGHT overuse it, you choose instead to UNDER use it?

Seems an awful lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. This just seems like one of those issues
that, rather than bother to learn how to use something properly, you chose to not use it at all,
despite how that might negatively impact you. By the same logic, those not using style mode very well
ought to not have arrangers in the first place?

Heck, why even have keys on your arranger? You MIGHT hit a wrong note!
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#273857 - 10/19/09 03:04 PM Re: Cable Organizer
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
In my case, the piano is the least used voice on my keyboard. I use the growl and sweet tenor sax a lot, several guitars, harmonica, flutes, strings, brass, trumpet, lots of neat things other than the grand piano. When I do use the piano, more often than not, I have it layered with strings, which IMO, provides a lot of depth and quality.

Beneath the keyboard are two foot switches, one for the Harmony-M and one for the keyboard. Most of the time the one connected to the keyboard is set to harmony/echo, which is sometimes used for the piano voices.

It's not that I don't know how, when, or cannot use the sustain, most of the time I just don't feel the need to use it.

Cheers,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#273858 - 10/19/09 03:21 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14294
Loc: NW Florida
Can someone tell me how you finger a jump of say an octave and a half (common with saxes and many other
sounds) smoothly without a pedal?

Just curious...

Look, it's possible to mess up a simple horn line by playing two notes at a time. But I don't hear a general
call to make all sax sounds monophonic. You simply learn to play legato cleanly. That way, if you DO want
two sax voices, you are not stymied. I am starting to
get quite amazed at how willing some of us are to restrict what we can play to make screwing up harder..

Like I said, SOME people hit the wrong notes, but mysteriously, you don't say 'get rid of the keys'! But
some people use the sustain poorly, and it's 'get rid of the sustain'... Why not simply learn to USE IT PROPERLY..!
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#273859 - 10/19/09 05:17 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
This is NOT directed at Donny, Gary or anyone. This is just my approach and some background on how I approached using an arranger kb several years ago.

I had never touched an arranger until one day about 5 years ago. I was blown away by its capabilities. Up until then my performances consisted of me using a digital piano and adding some strings at times. I also sang. As silly as this may sound to some, I had major reservations about being considered legitimate if I went the arranger route. I talked to other kb players in the area and my hometown of Pittsburgh about their thoughts on it. I talked to several long term clients as well as long term audience members.

I knew there were guys who used midi files behind a big impressive keyboard but hardly played it. Other musicians, clients and yes even audience members at nursing homes could tell they weren't playing but in the end they liked them anyway. They would call them "cheesy" and that wasn't for me.

The basic feedback I got across the board was that as long as they could still tell I was playing piano, the accmp. parts wouldn't take anything away. As long as I wasn't using it as a crutch, they felt it would be great.

So, from day 1, I use piano as my main rhythym instrument. During the average one hour show, I'll turn all the accmp OFF totally on a few tunes and play a ballad or hymn just to provide some contrast and depth to my performance. For me, a sustain pedal is critical to play the way I know how to play.

I don't use Midi files, mp3 files, OTS, etc. I use piano as my #1 instrument, usually strings/pad in #2 and a solo instrument like sax or trumpet in #3. I ride a style. I also modulate and sub in other solo instruments to keep it fresh. I've tried the other ways, I don't feel comfortable whatsoever and honestly feel very cheesy doing it that way.

So, as my anchor instrument is a piano and I'm a piano player/vocalist it all makes sense to me and my audiences.

If I didn't use piano as my main instrument and tried using a sax or a flute, well, that's pushing it too far for my money. I don't want there to be any doubt that there's a musician performing for you and its not just the technology dazzling you in some way that you can no longer tell if he's playing or not. I'm playing every chord through every song and you know what-If the power dies-"the show goes on!"

Frankly, I don't think a performer who uses a mp3 or a midi file is as legit as someone who doesn't rely on such a significant contribution to perform the basic nuts & bolts of as song. You're moving towards a karaeoke kind of presentation that I have no interest in.

I know there's guys here who do just that and god bless them. There's more than one way to skin a cat and if they can pull it off, that's great.

A few years ago there was a new guy in the Dayton/CBus area trying to get into nursing homes. His promo stuff said he was a keyboard player and singer. Some of the places tried him out and he bombed. Why? Because all he knew how to do was to fire nice sounding midi files via his kb. He couldn't play. Audiences watched him never play the keys and within a month he was toast.

Again, everyone's comfort zone is different. Hopefully this explanation helps everyone understand where I'm coming from on the sustain thing.

Oh, what the hell is a "Power Single?"

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]
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#273860 - 10/19/09 05:51 PM Re: Cable Organizer
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Bill - what you say is exactly what I expect to hear from you. Knowing you and how you play, you are spot on in your self-description. One thing you didn't mention that I know about your playing is that you use the full keyboard and full kbd chord recognition in most of your playing. As a pianist, that makes mighty sense to me. But not being a pianist, I can't successfully use that technique and I don't usually use a sustain pedal for my piano "playing." I have never purported to be a solo pianist and feel I am only adequate on a piano keyboard. The arranger keyboard, for me, is usually in split mode, so soloing a piano part is a much different task than it is for you. You play your arranger mostly like a piano - good for you. I don't and the way I do use it usually does not call for a sustain pedal. When I had my G70, I was more inclined to play pianistically - even with a short split, but the smaller 61-note requires I use the split most of the time.

I'm liking this 'sustain pedal' discussion because it is giving me insight into different players' techniques. I'm just wondering... what the hell does this have to do with organizing my cables?

ps - I can hear ya now, good buddy. I'm ready for your comeback.
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#273861 - 10/19/09 05:58 PM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
"Comeback?"

Huh?

...I should add that I'm not ruling out modifying my approach in the future as my audiences get younger and have different musical tastes. My youngest audiences are asking for stuff from the 60's, which is fairly easy to pull off. In a few years when people are asking for lots of stuff from the 70's and 80's, it may be different. Pop music was written differently in the 80's than before it. More lines and riffs were used as opposed to standard chording patterns.

I've said this before but I'll say it again, trying to play some of the riff based pop hits may force me to explore new techniques. Some of the big hits from Duran Duran, the Police, Rush, Van Halen, who knows what don't sync up real well with current day styles...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 10-19-2009).]
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#273862 - 10/20/09 08:37 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill in Dayton:
Oh, what the hell is a "Power Single?"


The term "Power Single" in our business refers to a person who plays solo, w/ vocals but also commands the sound of a band in a way that can easily fill bigger gig venues vs just a solo piano, guitar alone or background restaurant player, lounge act, eg: Weddings, Dinner dances,Dance Clubs, etc, etc, or anything a Band or DJ could fill "By Yourself". This lets potential hiring clients categorize you vs other acts when booking work.

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#273863 - 10/20/09 08:56 AM Re: Cable Organizer
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
The term "Power Single" in our business refers to a person who plays solo, w/ vocals but also commands the sound of a band in a way that can easily fill bigger gig venues vs just a solo piano, guitar alone or background restaurant player, lounge act, eg: Weddings, Dinner dances,Dance Clubs, etc, etc, or anything a Band or DJ could fill "By Yourself". This lets potential hiring clients categorize you vs other acts when booking work.



Ok, cool...the kind of stuff I've been doing already...



------------------
Bill in Dayton
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#273864 - 10/20/09 09:43 AM Re: Cable Organizer
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
O.K. I played trumpet, bass, drums, guitar, more or less in that order. Then after college I got an organ. Almost the day arrangers were invented, I got one.
I never used a sustain pedal on anything until a couple of years ago and there was a similar discussion on here. It made me think I was missing something.
I generally had one available in case I had a piano player that wanted to sit it in and play a couple of songs.
Anyway, I forced myself to start using one when I play piano rides, and sometimes Steel and Guitar, and I've found it does expand my tools. Like Donny and Gary, I don't use the piano sound as much as lots of you who came from piano backgrounds.
The only song that I turn off everything and play full piano notes is Happy Birthday.
I do use the pedal on Last Date, and when I take piano rides. My sustain pedal technique still pretty much sucks, but I'm getting better at it. Sometimes on slow nights, I use more piano and practice with the pedal to pass time. I also do stuff like never look at the keys, or make myself play in keys in which I'm not comfortable.
It all adds to our arsenal.
After many years of using a volume pedal I've just about replaced it with the sustain.
In the past few years, when playing Ketron or Roland, I've begun using a 6-button footswitch, controlling vocal harmony on/off, break/fill, and various other functions depending on what I need. The left foot goes to the three switches on the left, the right foot the ones on the right. I also use the sustain pedal with the right foot.
I try to make myself not look at any of the pedals.
Now I'm thinking I need to start using a volume pedal again, because you can do other neat things with it, such as change sounds by assigning one to full up and one to full down. I have assigned sax to up and guitar to down, and can easily play the lead and "answer" parts on Honky-Tonk without ever letting go of the keys. Another tool.
Listen, all this is a continuing learning experience. Although I never practice at home, working four to five hours every night gives you plenty of time to experiment.
All of this stuff is important, but not as important as showing up on time, playing stuff your audience wants to hear, and being a professional when it comes to handling your business. I don't drink when I work, ever. (By the way, neither does my doctor. I had one once that did, but he died from it.) If I had drunk all the drinks nice people wanted to buy me over the past 30 or so years, there is no double I would have a pickled liver and be long dead, or at least out of work. Again, there are many important factors that go into being an entertainer, particularly if your family wants to eat regularly.
DonM
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