Take a look at Bose's own ads... solo guitarists setting up to play coffee house style. Why would HE need stereo..? Take a look at how Bose envision a band using them. One EACH (guess they all are doctors in their spare time!)...

Then listen to those that actually DO use them as a stereo system. To be honest, sounds like IAN is the only one answering your question (from experience, anyway). Everyone else (including those with mono systems) is speculating.

Diki-ering, if you like!

Um, no.

What you describe above is known as a "binaural" recording. The binaural recording, once quite popular, was the attempt to recreate the actual exact sound of a performance, inclusive of the room acoustics. That kind of recording is hard to find today and has fallen by the wayside for all but the smallest group of purists in favor of the Stereo recording, which is quite a different animal entirely.

The old stereophonic method of recording an orchestra with the two mics positioned at a measured "3 to 2" distance is no longer done. Instead there is a lot of close mic'ing and multitracking, bringing in the Mix Engineer to create a sound that is larger than the actual. Richer, some might say.

We can take advantage of that when playing live with MIDI or AutoAccompaniment keyboards and the like, panning the instruments across the soundstage to force the perception that the bass player is standing "stage right" while the horn player is over on the left, etc. We can also take advantage of the fact that there are two separated amplifier and speaker systems at work, one reproducing mostly one instrument or so, the other side duplicating the rest. This can help the system be able to handle transients easier, which can translate to a clarity of sound. Even before the pair of Bose Compacts came into my life, I ran a true Stereo front in the small to medium venue clubs -- and always got compliments on our sound as compared to other acts that played the same places. Besides that, my MIDI synths all feature Stereo pianos, which I love to keep that way and the most critical part of the equation to me -- Leslie rotating speaker simulation, which can NOT sound proper at all from a mono source. I needs me some motion, some FM as well as AM going on when the B3 patch calls for some spin. In mono, every single Leslie emulator out there sounds like a sick and weak tremelo.




While this is true for the lower frequencies, a bass guitar or plucked bass fiddle does not make all of its energy "down there" where the directionality is not apparent to the human ear. You can easily use your ears to locate the bass player on teh soundstage due to the *note initiations* -- the ATTACK of the note, the "pluck" -- which is spread out above the range of nondirectionality. As high as the 5K mark. Matter of fact, it is the pluck marks that give the bass part its definition. Filter them out and you get a mushy mess of a bass sound not appropriate for any modern music that I know of. (This is also why accomplished B3 players who play the walking bass with the LH also kick one of the pedals at the initiation of each bass note -- typically a tritone away from the root of the current chord -- because it mimics the pluck of the bass string and adds that all-important definition to the part.)



Did you know that the original stereo diesing consisted of three channesl, L, R and Middle? It was indeed more accurate, especially for recreating those Binaural recordings. However, the mfrs deemed it too expensive and, afraid that customers of the day would not be willing to invest the cost of three amplifiers and three speaker systems, they cut it back to only two.



In my setup, Left and Right stereo outputs from my keyboards and MIDI synths get fed Stage Left and Stage Right accordingly. Internal Pans are left at default, typically the 12 oclock mark.



I think I've already explained what the real difference here is. You are confusing Stereo amplification with a true Binaural Recording.



I haven't seen a mono mixer worth using in decades. So that's a nonproblem.



You said it, I didn't, now govern yourself accordingly.

And one more thing:

Many of the samples used today are in stereo for a sound reproductive reason. You need the stereo amplification to take full advantage of that.

I'm mostly talking keyboard patches here, horns and such are still mono for the most part.

Every one of my currently used MIDI drumset patches and samples simply light up the room when reproduced in stereo rather than mono.

If someone can't hear the difference it does not bother me. I don't care how you sound.



[This message has been edited by --Mac (edited 10-16-2009).]

Chas, I don't have any agenda behind promoting the Bose...in fact, I should be endorsing Yamaha, but all I can do is relate what I have experienced from my own perspective.

I don't want to carry excess gear because I am basically very lazy, and if they could make keyboards and speaker cabinets out of Styrofoam...nah, I'm not THAT lazy.

Seriously, I'm of the opinion that we are ultimately playing the speaker(s)...it's the last link in the chain, and probably the most important.

So, I want the best speaker I can find, and the brand makes no difference....I could easily push Yamaha Stagepas 300/500(they are in stereo) but as it has been said, you wouldn't notice the stereo effect if you were any great distance away from the speakers.

It is not that way with two Bose, whether they be the Compacts, or the larger L1's...the stereo effect is greatly expanded because of the inherent nature of the array speakers in each cabinet...I don't know the science behind it, but I do know what my ears tell me...and, I'm not the only one.

You know the saying..."if it's stupid, and it works...it isn't stupid."

Another side benefit is the stage looks far cleaner, and you would not need monitors...of course the other advantage (as some have mentioned) is that you essentially hear what the audience hears, both in separation and volume level, so it is easy to judge when you may be too loud.

I hate being told to turn down...it is such a negative situation....I consider it almost an insult, but sometimes it's deserved, and I try to avoid it at all costs.

You know, my friend, I'd rather push Yamaha because I do some work for them, but, if I'm to recommend a pro system to a buddy who wants to hear his keyboard at it's optimum performance, it would have to be two Bose L1's or two Compacts.

A fool and his money, are soon partying....or something like that.

Chas,

Just to clarify, my goal is still stereo, but just a simple setup to include 2 Compacts. No extra woofers (use the Bose) or mixers (use the PA800). Can't get any easier. Always in my car, the choice to take in one or two

I believe from Ian and a few others on the Bose forum (including a Bose tech I had lengthy conversation with) is that a dual system will provide an unbelievable stereo field, which will allow the panning of instruments along with the things outlined by Mac.

I too had the question of what would happen with 2 180 degree mono fields running amok and meeting very weird in the middle? Who knows. I still know, (or at least perceive to hear) something is missing by playing only mono.

I do love the Bose, even mono, but need to investigate the stereo field. I can always sell one, but can't pass up on being my very best.

Thanks, Zuki. Looks like you and I are at least on the same page in the confusion area. I'm sure MAC is correct in that I'm some kind of idiot still living (sonically) in the 70's with some kind of outdated notion of what 'stereo' is. The statements I made about my understanding of stereo weren't meant to be taken as technically accurate, just trying to convey my perspective of a situation which I wanted some clarification on. I was looking for an answer, not a snide analysis of my question. For those of you that took it in that spirit and responded accordingly, I thank you.

chas

Chas, let me "shoot from the hip" here If one pays attention to the Bose ads, each musician uses his or her own system. That would, in effect, give a stereo sound as each instrument and voice would be amplified separately and be heard from the audience collectively. I believe that having two columns would essentially serve the same purpose by spreading the left and right channels to their maximum width.

As previously stated, the stereo "effect" pretty much dissolves beyond 20-30 ft. leaving a mixed mono sound further out. Personally, unless the channels are close enough to actually hear the mix in each channel, I feel that stereo might be a less than optimum way to amplify live stage sound. How many times have you been near to the right channel only to miss the parts you are used to hearing out of the left channel?

I say that for those who prefer or insist on stereo, then you will always be looking for the best mix. For us able to settle for live mono, what's the fuss?

Bose is very good, good enough to cause arguments among knowledgable musicians. Other systems are also very good. Price is something each of us has to deal with. If you are not willing to pay the price for a Bose then find the best system you can afford and be happy with it. How or why I ever came to own a Bose Compact still confounds me, but I'm glad I have it now.

You heard mine, remember?



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Quote
At its simplest, stereo would include a left and right signal that would place different parts of a musical composition at different places along a 190/degree plane to simulate what you would hear from a live group standing at different spots on the bandstand.
End Quote

Quote from Mac
What you describe above is known as a "binaural" recording. The binaural recording, once quite popular, was the attempt to recreate the actual exact sound of a performance, inclusive of the room acoustics. That kind of recording is hard to find today and has fallen by the wayside for all but the smallest group of purists in favour of the Stereo recording, which is quite a different animal entirely.
End Quote


Hi Mac
Have to disagree there, binaural recording had nothing to do with listening to the recordings over speakers, it was a recording technique to allow headphone users to hear the sound naturally rather then inside the head.
Essentially a Dummy head was made and 2 microphones were place inside the ears of it, this meant that the recordings picked up all the details as a human ear does, then when you played this back over headphones, it gave the user the full spatial experience rather then inside the head.
It was completely useless for use on speakers, as speakers are placed much further apart. (They don’t match the original microphone spacing)
Regards

Bill

Okay, now it makes more sense (in terms of Bose's intended use). So at it's best, it should be like listening to an acoustic group but with volume control. Still, this sounds very different from running a group of musicians through one system. Didn't you just lose your 'stage placement'? As I see it, in your first example (1 system/musician), that would be the ideal, and true stereo. Mixing the input signals and distributing them along a left/right axis to recreate the 'perception' of what was done in example #1 would be 'next best' or 'perceived stereo'. I'm making this stuff up as I go along, but I've long been curious about this. We gloss over a lot of stuff because we assume that 'musicians' are supposed to 'know this stuff', but in fact, what we 'know' is years and years of accumulated opinions, street wisdom, flat-out misinformation, and assorted BS.

Let me re-ask the question. Let's suppose we just wanted a great STEREO PA, you know, basically a left and right speaker system (powered/unpowered). WHY WOULD A BOSE OR BOSE COMPACT ANCHORING THE LEFT AND RIGHT SPEAKER POSITIONS PRODUCE A BETTER STEREO SOUND THAN CONVENTIONAL SPEAKERS OF SIMILAR POWER AND PERFORMANCE SPECS BUT AT A FRACTION OF THE COST?



Not sure I understand what that means? Anyway, thanks. Just shedding light on Bose's intended use was helpful (and makes sense). I'm now quite anxious to hear one demo'ed though I'd likely never buy one. I find the new generation of 'conventional' PA speakers just too seductive at half the cost. Plus, there's the familiarity factor.

Can't wait to get up and about and spending money again. A few toys I've still got my sights set on; a new super-duper controller to replace my (perfect condition) A70. Upgrade my VP550 for a VP770. Maybe a few goodies for my 'studio'. Of course, the DM-10 is already on order. Ahhh, so much time, so little money .

chas