Good point, Chas. Often it is a regional thing. My area has the highest sales of arranger keyboards, but there are only a handful of us playing them professionally.

I'm not complaining, as it means I get lots of work, for in spite of some musicians turning their nose down at the arranger player, we still manage to be very popular in certain venues.

My buddy (the guy I go to hear) and I have to turn down jobs, because there's just not enough time to do them all. I've decided to take the winter off and rest up and smell the roses, rather than go through another hectic season.

There seems to be less of a stigma towards the arranger player in Europe, and, in the case of Canada, the more cosmopolitan cities like Toronto, Montreal and St.John's NL.

Ian

Sheesh, Ian! Edmonton, if you include the metro area, has a population of over a million and getting regular gigs here is like pulling horses' teeth. I hate to say it but, for us arranger guys, it's Deadmonton.

That's strange, 124, I would have thought Edmonton would be more open to arrangers and arranger players.

I sell a lot in Newfoundland...of course, it's a port city and very diverse...wasn't unusual to see a pair of musicians with a full PC on stage, and them playing along with a squeeze and a guitar and playing Newfie tunes to Band-In -The Box jigs and fast waltzes.

When I was working in St.John's at A.L.Collis&Son, we had instruments at the store that no one in Canada had...the first E-series, the Yamaha Music computer (the CX5M), the first "new" digital Hammond...all kinds of stuff...and, we sold it!

Cape Breton is steeped in fiddle music and we sell a lot of digital pianos to the accompanists...you'd think arrangers wouldn't go well here, but I worked the biggest restaurant in the area for nearly 12 years running using various arrangers.

My buddy is 6 years at the restaurant he plays...of course we always kept the repertoire fresh, and even traded styles and arrangements.

I just had a gut feeling to take the winter off, and slow down a bit, which is not too difficult for me as I'm naturally lazy.

I'll start back up in May or June.

Still doing the Yamaha stuff, though...don't want to starve.

I'm glad there is a market for arranger players here, even if it's a bit small...I like working alone; I guess it's a control thing.

Ian

Chas,

Since we are numbering things:

1. You have every right to not use an arranger and I never said otherwise. No defense is neccessary.

2. Who ever said an arranger is perfect for every situation. I've never said that and neither has anyone else on this forum.

3. Professional musicians get paid to make music. There are many different skill levels and one can still be professional. Do you really expect that someone from the Philly Symphony will play "Tiny Bubbles" on anything anywhere? You didn't say symphony level musicians in your post.

4. The Paul McCartney example asks the question you NEVER answered. What level of plastic or artificial is allowed by you? Artificial sounds are ok but automated anything is not?

Where do you draw your line Chas?

Tom

Tom, seems to me you're trying your best to make this a personal thing. I basically said two things, one a personal opinion and the other a personal preference. I believe I'm allowed to have both. So that there is no further misunderstanding on your part, I'll say it again.

1. Personal opinion - watching a guy making very complex CD-like music which could not possibly be played by one individual, by triggering phrases and pushing buttons seems very "fake, plastic, and artificial" to me, especially when presented to the public as a musical performance. Others differ, but that's MY OPINION. You have yours and believe in it strongly, yet you jump all over me for having one.

2. Personal preference - I choose to use a non-automated keyboard when playing in public because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that the public is paying to hear me play and play at a higher level than an amateur at a house party on an auto-accompaniment organ. The people I play for are used to hearing 'live' musicians and would not accept anything else, especially poorly disguised 'canned music' packaged as a traditional live jazz group. There are obviously MANY other audiences in many other genre's that find this perfectly acceptable, BUT NOT JAZZ AUDIENCES IN JAZZ CLUBS. AND THAT IS WHERE I PLAY, UNDERSTAND?

Tom, I think you're being very predictably defensive (along with several others) and see this as a 'put down' of arranger keyboards in general. That only tells me that you're reading what you want to into what I actually said. Ian, who also disagrees with me, at least acknowledges my point of view (and my right to express them) and seems to understand what I'm trying to say. Spalding also disagrees, and like you, through a misinterpretation of something I said. Let me state clearly, that when I refer to using an arranger keyboard on a gig, I'm referring to USING IT AS AN ARRANGER, IN STYLE MODE (OR MP3 PLAYER OR ANY OTHER FORM OF AUTO-ACCOMPANIMENT). Obviously, just using it as a synth or ws strips it of it's 'arranger' status and changes the game (we are no longer talking about playing 'arranger keyboard' on a gig).

Hope this clears it up for you. One other thing (unrelated to your post but related to some earlier post), I WOULD NEVER switch my child from piano lessons to an arranger keyboard just to keep him interested. I say, take the money you were going to spend on an (probably entry-level) arranger keyboard and continue the piano lessons by (if necessary) bribing him/her with a brand new laptop loaded with games. That way he can learn both technology and how to legitimately play an instrument at the same time. JMO.

chas

Where do you draw your line Chas?
i guess they draw the line at ARRANGERS

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry.

chas

I really don't understand what's the fuss all about. In fact, Chas made some very valid statements.

I can't think of even ONE arranger keyboard player that fills stadiums, arenas, concert halls or jazz clubs. What would be the reason?

Wouldn't it be better if we tried to understand what Chas is saying? Or let's take a different approach. How would the typical arranger player fare if, due to some mishap, he had to play WITHOUT the accompaniment features. Would the show go on or be cancelled? See, that's at least ONE thing Chas doesn't have to worry about. Then, also keep in mind that Chas is a jazz player so his approach to music and understanding of music differs from yours. His audience is far more demanding then yours. That's a fact that can't be denied. Certain instruments just don't belong in a jazz club. Heck, you won't find even one no matter where or how hard you look.

Yet, that doesn't mean that he thinks he's above the rest. He wouldn't be here if he thought so.

Let's all just take a deep breath and relax.

Regards

Taike



------------------
Bo pen nyang.

I refuse to play at Carnegie Hall, and stadiums, because I believe I would lose the intimacy established when playing for a smaller audience.

I have no plans this winter, of doing any concerts at venues where the audience numbers more than 10,000.


Seriously, I have had my arranger screw up (brought wrong adaptor) and had to do the evening playing on my P-85 which I retrieved from my car...no problems whatsoever, other than a slight change in repertoire. It was actully a fun experience, and a good workout.

I think Chas has every right to feel the way he does, just as I have the right to remain steadfastly in support of using an arranger at my gigs.

Watching an arranger player is surely not going to be every one's cuppa tea, but neither is watching someone play jazz organ/piano. I have several friends, including my girlfriend(who, by the way, is an accomplished piano player) who find jazz boring.

Why do some people hate Country music, why do some dislike Celtic, or Classical?

I don't know...I like them all, but I guess it's just personal preference, a right we all have and one we can freely exercise and need not defend.

I don't listen to many arranger players...actually only one, who I referred to in a previous post. He keeps my interest, not just because he's a great player (he was Glen Campbell's piano player in Nashville for some time) but I enjoy his imaginative arrangements, and his interpretations of tunes...he uses no SMF, and like me, assembles his own styles.

We have something in common, so I suppose that helps too.

Chas has something in common with jazz organists, because he plays the same style, and likes the arrangements.

At that point, he and I do not differ, for we both appreciate a good job done.

We do differ however, in that I can enjoy both types of players.

But for me, and again like Chas, the players have to be reasonably at the top of their game.

Great topic Chas.

I'm secure enough in my environment, and with my skills, not to be offended if someone does not appreciate my level of skill on an arranger...sometimes it's because they do not understand the time and patience and years of working with these instruments that it takes to pull off a good performance that looks easy.

Everyone who plays has a message, some are simple, and some are complex, some are even in a foreign language, but the bottom line is still the fact that we can choose to listen and appreciate and maybe learn something, or simply ignore and enjoy what we always chose.


One of the easiest ways to to being unsuccessful, and a big source of frustration, is trying to please everybody.

I just do my own thing, and it works for me, and above all...I love doing it.

That's success in my books.

Sorry for the rambling...just got up at the crack of noon, and I'm still half awake.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-06-2009).]

Chas,

I have a 16 piece big band, I have a 7 piece big band, I have a 5 piece band and I also do trio stuff using the arranger and a couple of other musicians and I do solo arranger stuff. I prefer live musicians hands down.

How I play really doesn't differ much in any of the situations. When I'm playing with the 16 piece band I play my keyboard part. When I'm playing at my mom's nursing home as a solo I play my keyboard part. Regardless of who or what I'm playing with, my playing really doesn't change much.

I'm no less of a musician playing with 15 other guys than I am playing as a solo with an arranger.

I heard one of the greatest guitarists in the world (Phil Keggey) use a loop machine in his performance. It did not make him any less of a musician and if fact enhanced the performance.

Of course in a high priced jazz club nobody would expect to hear an arranger. It seems in your view these are the only places where real "Professionals" play. I guess if we play at the Elks or the Moose or a local resturaunt we can't be "Professional".

Why won't you answer where your line is? As a solo performer would you ever use a drum machine to enhance your performance?

Chas, I do agree with you that playing an arranger using a style is instant coffee, but it's better than no coffee, and I have to work harder and be better because I can't lean on the other band members.

I disagree on where "professionals" play and who they are and what they play.

Again I saw a guy playing a Korg I30 in a lounge in Las Vegas but in your opinion he wasn't a professional. I disagree.

Tom