Yea,
He did say bring back Diki,I know your lurking Diki,and hope you will be back before Christmas.It aint the same without you and your counterpart.

Gilbert.

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 12-05-2009).]

Spalding, I agree with most of what you say and I, too, have a PA1x Pro (which I love and see no reason to change/upgrade), BUT, there is a reason that 99.9% of the world's top working pro keyboardist don't use them, and 99.8% don't even know what an arranger keyboard is. For whatever reason, despite all of it's flexibility and capability, it just doesn't seem to translate into the real world of professional keyboarding. That's not to demean the instrument or it's capabilities. I guess most pro's must think that whatever it's capabilities, for that particular function, surely a dedicated instrument (synth/ws) must be able to do it better.

As far as my being "tunnel visioned", perhaps. I don't think so. On a gig, I just like being the 'organ player'. I like being able to control ALL the music that's coming from my little space on the bandstand (when I say 'control', I mean PLAY - those little pad-triggered brass stabs you mentioned; doesn't the tempo have to be spot on for that to work?). More importantly (to ME), I like for the audience to know that WHAT THEY'RE HEARING IS ME PLAYING, NO IF, ANDS, OR BUTS. Again, that's a personal thing. I don't see it as being tunnel-visioned, just the way that I prefer to approach music when playing for someone else (who is paying to see/hear my performance).

This is so difficult to explain, because arranger players have become so defensive over the years (maybe for good reason), but they tend to divide the world into arranger-haters and arranger-lovers; very little room (or tolerance) for anyone in between. I'm one of those in between. I enjoy playing my PA1x (my Tyros 2, not so much), but have never been inspired to take it on a gig. Part of that is that arrangers are not suited to the type of music I play on a gig. What I normally play is 60/70's style jazz organ trio, in the tradition of Jimmy, Groove, Brother Jack, etc., and the audiences I play for like this kind of stuff (as do I) and would not be happy with an arranger version of 'The Cat'.

I don't know much about NASCAR racing but I'm guessing Jimmy Johnson doesn't require that his racing car have automatic parallel parking (although he might think it's a neat feature in the car he purchased for his mother-in-law - lord knows she needs it). And although the one he purchased for his mother-in-law will top 100mph, he still has no desire to take it on the track. Dumb example, I know, but you get the idea.

Getting back on track. Again, nice video. If my eyes were closed, I would've sworn it was a CD.

chas

no chas i wasnt refering to the yamaha video as although it sounded nice ia gree with you it sounded like a CD. I have no problem with that by the way. My comment about shutting your eyes was in reference to the link i pasted in my post which is where the PA1X arranger, the PA500 arranger, the M3 and Oasys all were being used in separate demos and you would not be able to tell the workstation from the arranger because of the cleverness in which they were being used.

I understand you would not want to use the arranger functions when gigging live but that has nothing to do with using an arranger keyboard. Afterall its just another keyboard right ?

i think tunnel visioned is appropriate because its the when we talk about arranger keyboards we still assume that they are used only in arranger play when they are so much more than that.

I used the example of the key pads in the PA1X to trigger set phrases or samples because thats exactly what is done with the Korg M3 and the Fantom x and now Fantom G by many live bands performing in stadiums today. They may send a click track from the keyboard to the drummer so he stays in the pocket and then trigger the phrases where they need them in the performance. So long as the drummer can play to the click track the phrase stays in time and can be triggered whenever the player wants to. This goes for audio samples too.

If you played your korg on a gig live , no drums, no guitars, not auto accompaniment , just you, would your audience not know it was you playing the instrumenet just because the keyboard had Korg PA1X Pro on the front ?


I Know you love that great organ sound and its probably why you may never gig with any other keyboard than your nord. It is not because the nord has arranger functions or does not have arranger functions. Its purely because of the sound and functionality and maybe portability as compared to a real organ.

Anyway i wont labour the point.

AS for the Yamaha video. I thought it was great and the sound was terrific. the demonstrator is on point and i have heard him do amazing things with the yamaha range. If he had a Korg he would probably wet himself :-)

Ian's not going to take that lying down .


[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 12-05-2009).]

Would he wet himself?

Depends.

Incontinence is not most people's idea of a warm reaction to playing an instrument, but, and I say this dryly, I'd rather play the Yamaha, thank you.

You play a Korg, Spalding, and you too, Chas...anything else we should be warned about?

You Korgians aren't half as peed off as the Audya crowd.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-05-2009).]

The Arranger keyboard derived from the easy play features that were added to electronic organs.
As they could be made and transported cheaper then an organ, and took less space in the house, they became the new home organ replacement.
Arrangers were never designed for gigging, but testament to there capabilities a number of owners do gig with them very successfully.
When you see workstations demonstrated they show you how to create and makeup sounds and sequences, which shows haw creative they can be to prospective owners.
When you see Arrangers demonstrated, its intros, endings, press a button and it does it for you, and how easy none musicians can knock out a tune with a pre-loaded setup.
Until Pro’s (Top Notch) see how arrangers can be creative, then arrangers will never be treated in Pro circles as anything other then a cheap home keyboard with minimal potential.
The last statement might upset some folks, but I am afraid that’s the current impression out there in the real world.
As to the demos, the Yamahas were great, but just reinforced the easy play, knock out a tune impression that Pro’s have of them. (Mention Clavinova to a lot of Piano players, and you are looked upon as come back when you’ve learnt out to play properly)
The Korg demos I found very disappointing, so disappointing that I transferred them to my main audio system to see if they improved, (Computer speakers are notorious for ruining the sounds of keyboards) but I have to say they were still lacklustre, and didn’t show a fraction of what the Korg keyboards are capable of. (For me they just sounded like cheap boards from years ago)
Korg keyboards can produce some fantastic sounds, so my personal recommendation is; don’t take any notice of those demos and go and listen to one yourself, then you will really hear how good they can be.

Bill

In every word of French and every thing he does...he is telling us all to just buy this thing from him!... as his beautiful girlfriend with the killer body needs more of the $500/ounce French perfume and he is in need of a new toupe!

Oh, and his porche needs new tires...and his house needs a paint job and a shxxload of new screen doors!

He sold Me!
But in his next demo...he needs to have the girlfriend on display as well.

Lee S.

PS. He's good. Very well done and the S910 sounded great.

Chas,

You must not get out much. I have seen arrangers used in bar/club/upscale restaurant/church/schools. I've seen arrangers in Vegas. Ask Don Mason, Uncle Dave and many others where they use arrangers.

I watched the Paul McCartney New York special the other night. Now I would think Paul could get any players he wanted to perform with him. When he did "Got To Get You Into My Life" I was looking for the brass players. There were none to be found. It was all synth, plastic and artificial. Did it sound good? You bet. I don't know what synth or sampler they were using but it sounded very good.

The point is where do you draw the line? Do all the parts in a live performance have to be performed manually by humans? I'll include drummers in that group.

Is it ok to use electronic substitutes for parts as long as they are manually being played as Paul did?

Is it ok for me to add bass to my band using my pk5 bass pedals or is that too plastic?

Is it ok to use a B3 as long as you use a real bass player?

For most of us it is about the generation of a musical performance (entertainment and total sound)and using whatever tools neccessary to do it.

Tom

I hope no one on the Zone plays out with their keyboards--NO ONE! This is because I love it when my phone rings off the hook with folks that want me to perform at their parties, upscale restaurants, cocktail hours, etc... And, when someone asks if I consider myself as a one-man-band, I tell then NO! I'm a one-man-orchestra.

As for guys performing with keyboards in upscale restaurants, nite clubs, etc.., there are lots of them in MY area, especially in Baltimore's Inner Harbor and Little Italy. However, in Fells Point, which caters pretty much to kids, there are a few live bands, but mainly KJs and DJs cranking up the volume to ear-bleed levels.

Finally, the guy performing on the video said "Diki is here--please take him back!"

Cheers,

Gary

Tom, you missed the whole point of what I was saying. First off, I believe I have every right to choose not to use an arranger keyboard in a live gig situation (and not have to defend it, although I did try to explain why). Secondly, my observation of arranger players quickly becoming defensive at the very hint that an arranger keyboard may not be the best choice for all music and all situations. Thirdly, with all due respect, Uncle Dave is not the level of professional I'm referring to when I use the term 'professional'. There are community symphony orchestras and there is the Philadelphia Orchestra. When I use the term 'professional', I'm talking about the ones that play in the Philadelphia Orchestra. Fourthly (is that a word?), your Paul McCartney example has nothing to do with arranger keyboards and using STYLES, NOT SOUNDS, to emulate, simulate, imitate, a bunch of instruments being played simultaneously by one guy. All the rest of your questions are equally irrelevant because they focus on SOUNDS, not the process of arranger (style) playing (you know, AUTO-accompaniment). And lastly......your statement that.....
"For most of us it is about the generation of a musical performance (entertainment and total sound)and using whatever tools necessary to do it." may be true for YOU and a few others on THIS ARRANGER BOARD, but you should not assume that it is true for all musicians. The are quite a few out there that also care about the integrity of their performances and the integrity of the music.

chas

PS: I actually do get out quite a bit and am fairly active in my local professional music community. I stand by my statement. I know at least 100 local musicians and at least 20-25 keyboard players in the greater Atlanta area, and not a single one owns an arranger keyboard. This is not an indictment of arranger keyboards, just an indication that they are not very popular in my neck of the woods. Maybe they just don't get enough exposure, for whatever reason. No hard feelings. As is often said around here, play whatever you like (and feel good about it, Ian does ).

chas