all this demonstrates is that Liontracs dont have the 1st clue about who their target market is or what kind of product they are actually selling. This kind of amateur guerilla marketing just smacks of desperation.

This is a great product, being touted to the wrong people...

We are arranger players here, first and foremost (mostly!). We have already eschewed workstations and non-interactive electronic music production. For many of us, the arranger was the product that released us from the drudgery of making music in a foundation upwards, piece by piece non-interactive linear fashion, SMF or MP3 backing track manner. Yes, years ago, most of us that moved away from full live band music and went towards producing our own music tracks used the forerunner of products like this. Sure, back then, it was a Frankenstein's monster of many different pieces of gear, cobbled together firstly with C/V signals and gates, then DMX, then MIDI, then finally the first integrated WS's appeared.

But the WAY the music was made was always similar. You made the drum track first, then laid down a bassline, then added some rhythm, then some leads (or whatever your workflow was), building a composition piecemeal from the ground up. But then came arrangers... Now, you could do it simultaneously. One hand could create an entire backing track, on the spot! Then do it again differently a second time, and a third, and a fourth, in less time than you could create ONE track with the old system.

So, we moved on.

This product is the logical end point of that first, non interactive, linear system. And, I might add, a GREAT product. But for THAT way of making music. But I am still confused why Dom tries so hard to tout it here, where, on the whole, we have already decided that even conventional WS's, let alone über-techno ones like this are really not quite our cup of tea.

We play jazz, we play oldies, we play music originally played by HUMANS, on the whole. Not techno, not trance, not hiphop or rap (again, MOST of us ), not industrial or chilldown... And those musics are this thing's forte. Once again, don't get me wrong. For what it does best, this thing is, if you are capable of operating it, one of the most amazing things out there. But, as I have said so many times in the past, unless you are ALREADY making amazing music using your computer, using VSTi's and groove production tools to make music that really floats your boat, and wow's your friends or clients, what on earth is it good for, especially to a forum of arranger players playing classic pop and jazz music?

I don't believe that, if you haven't already mastered computer music production using a computer, how is basically tacking a keyboard on to exactly the same thing going to make any difference? I don't believe the learning curve is going to be any less, I don't believe the frustration is going to be any less, and I don't believe that this will make making music (similar to what we are already very happy about, using an arranger) even a fraction as easy as we already have it...

Dom has had what, four or five YEARS to come to terms with the fact that making something like this work as a decent arranger is simply beyond not only the average (or even above average) arranger player's skill and ability, but beyond his as well. But he still comes here to show it off. Yes, it's a great product, but it is NOT an arranger, or even CLOSE to an arranger. Personally, I think it is time for it to move on to the forums that DO deal with these types of products, and the types of musicians and producers that DO make music that this product is best at...

For those of us that DO use these kinds of products, well, we already participate in those forums, so it will not drop off the radar, but this IS the General ARRANGER Forum... What's next? Harpsichord manufacturers touting their latest baroque creations? Guitarists endlessly arguing tube configurations? Heaven help us! Maybe even drummers talking shell diameters and birch vs. maple?

Because they all have about as much relevance on THIS forum as a Linux Groove production tool, IMO

It may well be the future. But I honestly doubt it is the future for US here...

Hi All
This post was started by a member NOT Lionstracs.
Lionstracs just replied to say that he had dropped the arranger functions on the Groove, (Although it can still be loaded if required) and is targeting it at the Groove/Workstation market, where it has been readily accepted, so I can’t see the point of the postings that say it’s not an arranger, when Lionstracs has already said that the Groove is not an arranger.
This thread would probably be better transferred to the LIonstracs forum, to stop people getting confused about what it’s about.

Bill

Diki, this is one of those rare times that I disagree with you. I already know that you don't take a difference of opinion personally, so I feel very free to say this. YES, this is a general arranger forum BUT.....nearly every member here has some kind of non-arranger keyboard, some of which they even use as part of their professional rigs. I, myself, have at least 10 non-arranger keyboards. Cass has an XK-1 which he loves, Mike has a G7, YOU have a Triton and a Kurzweil and probably others, Rikki (and Frank) never saw a piece of music software they didn't love, Ian has a bunch of stuff, and let's not even talk about Russ. The point is, because the main focus on this board is arranger keyboards, doesn't mean that we have no interest in other types of music making tools. I don't think Doms 'touting' an electronic keyboard (of whatever variety) is the same as a harpsichord maker touting HIS product. But then of course you know that.

Frankly, I think Dom has busted his butt over the last four or five years, against unbelievable odds, to try to come up with a product that musicians might embrace and produce beautiful music with. Frankly, I can't see any other motive he might have had (it certainly wasn't to make money ). I think he should be applauded, not demonized (not that you've done that - I think your questioning of certain aspects of his product line were reasonable and (usually) civil). I guess what I have a problem with is the attitude that 'if it's not arranger related (which, BTW, most of his products have been), don't bring it to this board. I, for one, like to see everything that's out there, no matter what the setting (within reason, of course). How else (besides some of Fran's recommendations) would I know what to waste the next pile of money on .

I'm just saying, there's no such thing as too much knowledge. Dom seems to be a decent guy, certainly dedicated to his mission, who has put a lot of time, effort, and money into this project. I think he HAS listened to you (and his distributors) and abandoned the 'arranger' aspect of this project. So NOW can we look at it as what it was all along, a very modern (by big three standards) workstation with huge upside potential in certain markets and as a studio (and possibly performance) tool. JMO.

chas

PS: Picked that DM-10 kit last evening from the UPS freight center (15 minutes from my house). It wasn't scheduled for delivery 'till Tuesday. Now I have all week-end to play with it. Just opened it up. Factory fresh in every way. I don't know how these guys (djgearforless) can afford to sell it at this price, but I ain't complaining .
Please don't roast me, it's just another opinion.

How do you make that out ?. I'm actually really curious because it's marketed at the workstation and DAW market which means Lionstracs are targeting the vast majority of the keyboard players.

The arranger market is the smallest market and the general arranger user is not someone who is technically minded.

I'm genuinely curious why you said what you said and what you must be thinking.

Regards
James

+1 Well said.

This is not being targeted at arranger users although you can install arranger software on it. It's targeted at DAW and Workstaion users which are the vast majority of keyboard players. The Arranger market is the smallest market and the “””general””” arranger user is not someone who can program or who is very technically minded.

That said, there is also no harm in talking about the keyboard here in an arranger forum. We talk about everything else here, so no harm done.

Regards
James

ok, the groove is a workstation and the MS is a workstation like diki said,

but if you have a worksation with out arranger option and one with arranger option,

which one would you take?

I personally pick up the one with with arranger function!

why?

because if you can make styles, then your sound and rhythm that are unique.

as a style maker, style that you create will sound better because you've made with your taste.



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 01-01-2010).]

That's not exactly a question that has a straight answer.

In general “closed keyboard terms” I'd take the keyboard without the arranger function because it will be more advanced and totally reprogrammable, as well as designed for a much more advanced user than the one with the arranger functions.

This is the typical difference between all Arranger and Workstations keyboards right now and the type of user they are designed for. Workstations are simply designed for more advanced users who expect to have to program everything and write songs track by track.

However if it's a OPEN keyboard then the question is actually rather pointless since they keyboard technically has no function other than to be a HOST for whatever the end users needs are.

The only thing that still follows through though is the ability of the end user.

So with that in mind, an open keyboard is not ideal for the general arranger user because they can't program and are not generally technically minded. Where on the other hand the workstation & DAW users will take to an OPEN keyboard like a Duck to Water. It's simply an natural progression for them.

Obviously you Magica Alfa are not the typical Arranger user and you are one of the few who are technically minded.

Just my 2 cent's.

Regards
James

James did you click on the link ?

1.What did you see ?
2. what explanation was given about the product ?
3. Who do you think this product is aimed at ?
4. from the presentation who do you believe Liontracs is aiming the product at and tell me how you deduced this from the presentation ?
5. From the youtube link what do you think were the key features Liontracs were promoting about their product that set them apart from their competitors ?
6.What did the presentation actually say about Liontracs the company or the product?

Click on any of the liontracs youtube demos. Remember this is a product that they are selling to the world and not to friends and family !!

You actually provided more information about the Liontracs product in the few sentences you wrote from your own research than Liontracs !!!!!

This is basic marketing theory.

I saw a poor demonstration with no information .... zero , terrible audio recording and terrible video recording . This isnt an arranger versus workstaion issue. This is about a supposedly professional company wishing to take money from genuine customers that today uses EXACTLY the same amateurish preasentations not just to our small community but the world at large that it did 5 YEARS ago when the first liontracs products were being touted as the next best thing and the methods then were inefective as they are now.

Liontracs said

'want to laugh? removed the arranger styles module from the OS installer and we get the contract distribution.
Another probe that the arranger keyboards will dead really soon, they want only Sounds Workstation!'

You havent been on this site long James but Liontracs was told by members on this forum YEARS ago including myself and Diki that he was not selling the right product to the right people. The moment he dropped the arranger function (which was frankly crap) from his instrument he gets a serious contract for his instrument as a workstation!!! Do you think it is only recently that he had been advised to do this ?

Come on !!!!!

last bit ....

The only product that i have some understanding about that is a direct competitor is Open Labs, http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenLabsInc#p/c/A4C625C9D98DE268/4/e5Ohz-GoNdw

click on the link above and look through any of their demonstrations and ask yourself the same QUESTIONS 1-6 .

Compare the two and tell me which company would you be most confident in buying from and why . Be honest .....

I hope this clarifies my comments.


[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 01-02-2010).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 01-02-2010).]

all this demostrates that someone there is still full frustrated and desperated..

IF my products sounds so bad, infos so bad...why then megaudio choose to distribuite my all products on whole north Europe??
Openlabs asked to Megaaudio for the distribution too, but after they have tested..refused all.

Do you think that the 3 products managers of megaaudio are so stupid and only value what the people from this forums says? Com on...

Openlabs have reaally a NICE webpages, nice pictures and products, but the windows OS remain anyway crappy!
Just one application at once: or reaper, or Forte or...or.. always one.

Anyway..let megaudio sell now...not anymore my problem..
Happy new year