I got wonderful news yesterday from Casio's newest employee. The man who ran the arranger keyboard group at Yamaha US up until a couple of years ago who had moved over to the piano division and left Yamaha a while ago just became the new West Coast Manager for Casio. This is a very exciting event because he brings an enormous amount of knowledge about the arranger keyboards and what the needs of players to a company who could use this kind of insight. I am personally pleased because of the longstanding relationship between the two of us. He visited my store often when being with Yamaha and I was often invited to come down to Yamaha in Buena Park for brainstorming sessions and for my input in design of many of the products you have been playing for the past several years. This was a big step in the right direction for a company who has been growing like crazy in the digital piano world but could use some help in the arranger keyboard products.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Thanks George:

Looking forward to future scuttlebutt from Casio's new insider. I sure hope they take a serious swipe at the arranger market. I realize the arranger demand is extremely small and completely misunderstood by most of the retailers... present company excepted... LOL!

I appreciate the things you do for us here at the Zone.

Dave Rice
http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice

Casio is one of the few keyboard companies putting out an excellent product at a low price. It wouldn't surprise me if they put out a quality mid-level arranger, but they would have to work a miracle to wean me off of my Yamaha PSR-S910.

They would have to have a unit with a mic input and a harmonizer.

They would have to have hundreds upon hundreds of styles to compete with the amazing variety that I have on my pen drive of styles from the PSR-9000, T1, T2, T3, purchased styles, great freebies, and styles converted from other keyboards.

Last, they would have to provide an easy to learn operating system.

I think Casio could give Yamaha a run for it's money, but I don't think they could make an arranger with the amount of styles that would get me interested in switching.

But I'd be happy for Yamaha to have some competition to keep them working hard to keep people like me aboard - especially with Technics and GEM gone, Ketron struggling with technical and other problems, Roland down and out, and Wersi in restructuring.

Beakybird

As a Home Hobbyist keyboard player, I will never regret 20 years ago finally opting for the Yamaha arranger.
Looks like I made a wise decision!
Of all the other boards I ever bought, Technics was the nearest to my ever-favourite (I can still long for their organ sounds) but even they are now history.

As long as Casio really cares about what he has to say and doesn't choose to pursue other strategies, it will be good news.

Even if they care a lot, I wonder how much time will it take to R&D, produce and market a new keyboard, or even to "shift" or "branch" the existing marketing strategy to include higher spec arrangers, like the PSR and Tyros line.

Nevertheless, it sounds like a suitable chap for the position. Now imagine if he joined Lionstracs.

Jim Presley ?

It's funny the different attitudes you can get towards a company depending on what part of the world you live in. Here you really only find Casio keyboards in toy department stores for children. Nobdoy would consider them for any serious use here.

I even remember when I was learning keyboards as a child Casio were even frowned upon back then because the Single Finger chord mode did not operate as any other keyboard on the market did. Casio were the only ones doing it differently, so they where not recommended by the people teaching at that time.

Regards
James

Times have changed. Casio now have excellent entry level keyboards with very good lesson functions.

[This message has been edited by FransN (edited 01-15-2010).]

Casio WK series has fantastic piano and organ sounds.
DonM

Recently the Privia series have gotten pretty much rave reviews with the lastest being the PX-330. Keyboard Magazine gave it high marks for not only the AC. Piano sound but also the nice action of its fully weighted key bed. Remarkably, it weighs under 25 lbs as well. The only thing that held me back from considering it was the lack of a Mod wheel. It does have a Pitch Bend wheel though. The price is an added bonus too.

FWIW, Mike Martin (formerly of Yamaha U.S.) is also now working at Casio too, although in the marketing department from what I understand.

Hopefully Jim Presley?? could convince Casio to put a Mod wheel on the Privia to go with its Pitch Bend wheel (or a combination Mod/Bend Stick)?? The Privia PX-330 also has arranger type functions on it too. If Casio made a full blown arranger in the Privia line it would probably be a huge hit since it would have 88 keys, be fully weighted, have a Mod/Bend wheel or combined Stick (hopefully), be reasonably priced, lightweight, and did I say have 88 keys?

The new Privia's also have 128 note polyphony as many of you already know.

All the best,
Mike

Casio seems to have made a good move, and I've always wondered whatever happened to the guys who ran the Technics arranger keyboards.

I heard that some of them moved to Korg, but it would be interesting to know for sure.

Larry

Personally, I think Casio are going to HAVE to copy Yamaha's Mega Voice technology, multipads AND SA technology and do it just as well as Yamaha to stand any chance of competing against them. Let's face it, even REALLY good sounding arrangers like the Roland's are generally very poorly received because they don't have these 'must have' features, despite having a long list of stuff the Yamaha's don't...

It's going to take more than just the kidnapping of a few Yamaha reps from the US to get the job done, and let us not get TOO excited... Product lag will make anyone who has JUST joined not have any impact for probably three to five years from now. They don't just sling these things together, or develop mature technologies like SA2 overnight.

From what I gather, it's the guys at Yamaha UK that have a LOT more influence on how the Tyros and PSR's get voiced and feature priorities, so purloining a few Yamaha guys from the US might not have as big an influence as you might hope. This ain't the Tyros R&D team here. It's marketing guys. Not that Casio couldn't do with some help to get them over the bad old days memories, but let's wait and see...

I think it will take FAR longer than you are hoping for.

If Casio wants to seriously get in to the arranger market, they would have to introduce something ground breaking and different to the market.
For them to accomplish this, product development and marketing would need to work hand in hand. One can not work with out the other.

Casio should start off with a teaser product.
They should start off with a cool/sexy looking product.
IMO this product should be something like an Akai MPC 2000.
It should be this cool” box” that you can connect to your motif xs, M3, PSR s910 Audya …..
It should sample, have styles and the ability to play styles and a sequencer.
I am leaving out all of the details.
But, once the cool/sexy game changing product is developed, it is up to the marketing department to take it and run with it.
The goal would be to get Casio in to normal keyboard circles. It should not be marketed as an arranger (although it will be). And, the reason it will be a “box” if people are still afraid to have a “casio” product as part of their rig, but can not resist the ground breaking sounds, styles and feature integration, they could “hide” it under a table or some place.

Another important part of the puzzle is that it would need to be reasonably priced. It should not be a high-end product.
The initial product should be cheap and they should make money on the additional content people could buy (sounds, styles and plugins). It should be a product that gets people thinking “Casio” in a serious way and look to Casio for bigger and better things. You would not be asking people to jump ship. With this new product, you are not asking people to get rid of their current keyboard and get the Casio. You are enticing them to add Casio to their rig and forcing people to look to Casio for serious musical products.
After the “box”, they could always add and develop to the line as needed.

I think Casio has the wherewithal to produce a pro-level arranger or any other type of synth if they wanted to. But I also believe that in order for it to be successful, they would have to start a new 'Professional' division, complete with a new name. Very few brands in the world are so identified with cheap, 'NON-PROFESSIONAL' products. Even the most un-informed non-musician in your audience would question your credibility if you showed up at the gig with a keyboard with CASIO emblazoned on the back. But ego might keep Casio corporate from ever going that route. JMO.

chas

Hey! I know what Casio should make that is groundbreaking!

How about an arranger VSTi player hybrid that DOES do what arranger players (in general! ) want, contains great styles and sounds OOTB and priced no more than an S910...?

Forget modules (too tiny a market). Forget being 'me too, Yamaha'. Give us what all the open arranger fanboys have been screaming for...

Only, this time, make it for ALL arranger players, not the tiny, mythical handful that think they can voice and style their own full arranger...

V-Machine sells for well under a grand. Looks like the engine is ready to go (doable, at least). Now all we need are the wheels and a body.

That's about the only thing I can think of that IS 'revolutionary'. The rest has been done, and failed at one time or another (or there would still BE modules). And, for Pete's sake! Why would you hook a module up to your MoXS with a sequencer in it, when the MoXS already HAS one..? There's NOTHING in your wishlist that isn't already out there. PA2X samples, has styles and a sequencer. T2/3, ditto. Nobody is falling over themselves to get those to add to their M3, FantomG, etc..

But a REAL VSTi based arranger? Only Wersi has succeeded making one of those, and they are now gone (or at least in serious trouble) and they can't make them affordable. If anyone can make one affordably, it would be Casio!

The revolution will not be televised. It will make music to our ears. And NOT require us to be TOTL style and sound developers.

Hay people get akai products even though they have and XS.
Remember I did not release all the details about the “box”; nor will I.
And yes a VST player would be in the “box”.
Remember the “box” is only the beginning you can then release 61, 6 or 88 key versions of the “box”.
It would be very difficult (almost near to impossible) for Casio to get people to leave their favorite brand and get a pro Casio keyboard.
They have to lure and entice persons to their new professional line.

By a show of hands, how many persons will get rid of their current arranger for the next ground breaking pro keyboard from Casio?
Didn’t think so!

I used pro Casio keyboards for several years...I had a CZ-1, and VZ-1 Phase Distortion synthesizers, and an FZ-1 16 bit sampler.

I knew several other players who used these instruments as well...the synths were partly designed around the wishes and ideas of Isao Tomita, the great synthesist who dreamed of the ultimate Casio Cosmo synthesizer/sampler.

These products were very well made and very powerful, and I only sold them because I got into the arranger gigging.

Casio is very capable of making a high end arranger...the rumors I heard from someone in the know, that there will be a powerful arranger sometime this year haven't been denied, so anything is possible from this company, and now that Roland is out of the way, who knows what they'll come up with.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-15-2010).]

Most but the blinkered and blind don't give a toss what name and logo is on the panel... Sound and capability is all anyone should care about.

Were Casio to make something I wanted, heck, were Lionstracs to make something I wanted ( ), I would buy it regardless of prior product.

Thing is, genesys, in this economy, biting off more than anyone can chew is going to go down in flames. You can't honestly expect that gargantuan wishlist of features to come out at a price anyone can afford, do you?

Baby steps, man, baby steps. Combine them ALL into an über-product later, when the crash is over... Perfect each component NOW, assemble them when we can all afford them afterward.

But I still think, as ARRANGER players, an MPC type product (which is what you describe) will float like a lead balloon (we already GOT arrangers, you see). And yes, were Casio to unveil what I actually WANT, I will drop ANYTHING in a flash... as long as I can afford it. So, there's at least ONE 'hands up'!

Diki makes a good point that it could be years before Casio comes out with a compelling mid-range arranger.

It is foolish to discount Casio because they make cheap keyboards for Best Buy.

All of Casio's products are good buys for what they deliver.

And the Privia PX-330 is a tour de force in that it is light weight with a great piano feel and a fantastic piano sound for it's low price. In addition, it has some entry level arranger features.

Even though Casio cannot make a lot of money in a higher end arranger, they might want to do it to add to their prestige.

Beakybird

Its all in marketing my friends; all in marketing.
You obviously would not market it as an arranger the same way you would market a T3.
And yes baby steps that is what needs to take place. And that is what the product would be.
That is why it can not be a full fledged arranger/synth. Not in this economy. The product would flop if they do it that way.

I have to admit, I used a Casio Wk3200 on stage (for the piano and organ sounds, and as a temporary controller for Midjay) for a few nights. I must also admit I used silver masking tape to cover the name. In the words of Jimmy Reed: Shame, shame on me.
I did THINK about leaving the name showing and telling everybody that the arranger they heard was the Casio. But that would have be cruel.
DonM

So what is DonM, blinkered or blind? He's about as 'Pro' as you're going to find and has enough credibility with his audience to be able to display the Casio or any other banner, but his gut reaction (and action) was to NOT identify what most folks would consider to be an amateur keyboard. Thankfully, he was honest enough to admit it (though sheepishly ).

I'm just saying, sometimes someone else is right, too. Maybe, once in awhile, we should preface more statements with "IMO". JMO.

chas

What is anything here BUT opinion? Do I REALLY got to preface everything I say with JMO, IMO, YMMV? Surely that is implied...

Opinions vary... You can't honestly be telling me that anyone takes what I write here as FACTS, do you?

Personally, I am kind of the perverse kind of guy that it might tickle my fancy to cover up the Roland logo, and put Casio there (or Bontempi, or Costco! ) because, basically, no-one whose opinion I value much would EVER judge me or my playing based on what the bloody logo is on the front of my keyboard. You listen to music with your EARS. And they can't hear a logo.

Casio used to make some pretty amazing synths, back in the day. If they make something as good tomorrow, I won't worry in the slightest what the logo says. The only people that EVER care or even notice what brand keyboard you play are other keyboard players... And I sure as hell ain't playing for them!

I just don't get it... For all everyone worries about what brand keyboard they play, or all the talk about people coming up and dissing arranger use in a band, or even as a solo or duo tool, I swear, in my entire LIFE, no-one has EVER come up to me and dissed what gear I played. No other musician I have EVER worked with has ever disparaged me for using an arranger... You know why? Because, all they know is, I'm playing a KEYBOARD. And it sounds great. THEY DON'T CARE what brand it is, or what type of keyboard it is, or what color it is, or what it weighs...

If it sounds great, they won't give a damn if it is a Casio or a Synclavier. They won't care if it is an arranger or a WS. They won't care if it is black or blue or red or silver.

I just don't get why WE seem to care about stuff that is SO irrelevant as to be absurd Worry about your PLAYING, folks. That's all they care about...

JMO, IMO, YMMV, BBC, BBQ, DCO, VCF, WTF...

How many styles does one really need? More than the amount, the quality of styles is more important.

I think Casio puts out a pretty decent product, but is short on features. A MOTL arranger good enough for "pro" use is very achieveable if Casio were to put its mind to it. This might be worth keeping an eye on.

What Diki said in theory I can agree with.
But, from the manufacturer’s perspective, they are quite concerned with what “they” think.
The “they” in this case is not the audience. The “they” in this case is the keyboard buyer. And, if the Keyboard buyer does not feel comfortable having a certain brand displayed as part of their set-up, you could bet that the manufacturer will take that in to consideration in what they make and how they market what they make.

One thing that Casio would probably excel at is the 76-88 keybed lightweight arranger. Yamaha have chosen to pretty much abandon that segment with any decent arranger section, seems like the perfect spot for Casio to come in with a Privia with a more full-blown arranger than they currently have.

At least they won't be going toe to toe with Yamaha...

I know of several VERY good piano players MORE than happy to gig with a Privia. 'They' don't care it has Casio on the front It's a great sounding, inexpensive and lightweight stage piano.

Remember, once upon a time, having Yamaha on the front logo of your arranger meant it was a cheap and nasty POS... Now, it's cool They didn't change the logo, and people started buying them. Know why? Because they started to be really good...

That's all it takes.

Look, all I said is that I thought Casio would have a better chance of success marketing to professional musicians if they labeled it under a new name and implied that it was being produced by the newly-created 'Professional Division' of their company. In fact, it could be called the POS Pro.

Do I know that for a fact? No. Does anyone know that it's not. No, again. I think it's ok to take a different position on an issue, but sometimes maybe we could just topple it gently as opposed to smacking it down. JMO.

chas

Casio sold plenty of CZ-1's, VZ-1's and even a few FZ-1's too, all the while suffering from that same assumed inferiority complex. Even back then, keyboard players didn't CARE whether it had Casio on the front panel. Why would they care any more now?

The Privia has already demonstrated that Casio don't need to rebrand themselves to get respect and sales from the pro players' market. They are one of the hottest, most popular stage pianos (hardly a Casio strong point from years past) out at the moment. I am just unsure WHY, if Casio can get respect in one area of the keyboard market, they can't in the arranger market (or any other they choose to go in)..? All it takes is one killer product.

I don't honestly think this IS opinion... Privia has shown it to be a fact. Without Privia's success, I might be more inclined to think you right, but you are arguing a point that there is direct contrary evidence.

Let's face it. 'What have you done for me lately' is the tune of the industry Roland USED to be the top dog. TONS of cachet for the name, the logo. But does it get much respect around here? Not much that I've noticed... I may have to cover up THAT logo before I cover up a Casio one, these days

If I cared, that is...

I used to use a Casio CZ-1 that sat on the stand above the Yamaha DX-5 I was also using.

One of my Yamaha buddies came to the gig, and on break, he remarked how great the DX-5 sounded on the last tune.

I took a perverse delight in telling him the instrument he heard was the CZ-1, which I was playing from the DX-5's keyboard through MIDI.

Casio FZ-1 samplers are collectors items, and I just sold a mint VZ-1 a few months ago for a pretty darn good price.

The day I start being concerned about the logo on my keyboard in relation to what someone else thinks, will never arrive. It has never made one bit of difference to me in all the years I've been playing.

Amen...

Might as well worry what a book tastes like, or how a painting smells, or whether a dancer can spell

Some things just don't matter... some things do

But those "things" are different for different people. Because it applies to YOU doesn't mean it applies to everyone else in the world. That's what makes us all different (and viva la difference).

JMO .

chas

I completely agree, chas, don't get me wrong.

But when we are talking about an entire market segment, not just one person's individual preferences, the evidence ought to be taken into account, IMO.

It appears, despite SOME peoples' reservations, that the word Casio on a pro keyboard is not the detriment you might feel.

I mean, some people (no names, no pack drill ) have grave reservations about Obama as President. But the majority voted for him. Should the majority view be discounted, just because some don't agree? (and don't get me started on the teabaggers and health care!)

Thing is, if Casio come out with a killer arranger product, and you choose to not buy it based solely on negative feelings about the name, who will be missing out? You, or Casio? I think you, because the Privia has already shown, there will be PLENTY of pros willing to overlook the stigma (assumed or otherwise) of the name. But that is definitely your choice, no objections whatsoever.

Me, I'll play it, even if it has the word W*NKER on the front panel

First, Diki I will report on a Yamaha I saw in a back room with 76 and 88 lightweight piano graded keys......
But for Casio, I met with Mike Martin and Jim Presely at the Casio booth yesterday afternoon and I can assure you they are a team for this decade. If the corporate powers that be will give these guys the reigns we should see great things in the future.
I am going to post my NAMM experience in a new thread.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

A full PSR with a 76 or 88? SA, Megavoices, multipads, the works?

Say it ain't so!

Stranger things have happened.

Yamaha's entire arranger line is based on what a small group of pre-senile pensioners in the UK have told the guys at Milton Keynes. Fact.

As far as Casio is concerned, my G-Shock gets more wrist time than my Rolex Sub. Brands aren't everything.

Thankfully they used the pre-senile group...the post-seniles were busy running Roland's arranger marketing and design departments.

Ian

One think we have to look at is that although Yamaha may have a greater acceptance in the “pro arranger market”( today if there is such a thing), is that the name Yamaha always had a well known and well represented pro market. So having a Yamaha keyboard on stage was not that far of a stretch even if it was an arranger.
And I am sorry, but if Casio synth were so good in sales (no doubt they were good for playing), there must have been a reason why they did not continue making them.

In this economy, with the cheap home keyboard reputation that Casio now has and with Casio not being a part of the professional keyboard market for a long time, the corporate people would not want to take that risk and put out a product that ask people to dump there current keyboard.

Integration is the name of the game today.
Casio also sells consumer products and I am sure Casio realizes that integration is what sells.
That is what this new generation (and even the old) expects. If Casio wants to reenter the pro keyboard market, they have to have a game changer. They have to do to the keyboard market what the I phone did to the cell phone market.

And Marketing Marketing Marketing is what makes the difference.

Casio would not want to market the product as a "Casio arranger" but would need to market it as the product name. Apple did not market the I phone as an Apple phone or a Mac phone. Sure all those things were under the hood but when people refer to the product they say the I phone.

And, you know what that did? It got apple and Macintosh in to people’s home and Apple had a spring board to market other products to.

If you had the “box” that was able to integrate well with some of the most used major keyboards, and content was offered on the internet, Casio would have increase their visibility in the market place.
Then they would have a spring board for a full fledged pro keyboard product.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 01-16-2010).]

My Privia PX-800 has the Casio logo, but it's pretty small. Maybe that's on purpose.

Casio poses a lot of competition to Yamaha in the entry level arranger and digital piano market. IMO, Casio offers slightly more for the money in digital pianos. Yamaha doesn't have anything like the PX-330 in that price set. If Casio moves into mid-level arrangers, they would probably pose some serious competition to Yamaha.

It's funny that someone mentioned the G-Force watch. I have a G-Force atomic watch. It's a monstrosity for my small wrist, but being a ditz, I need a watch that tells me the day and date and has a night light. I love that it is always precisely on time (and that it's water proof to 300 meters so in case I'm found on the bottom of the ocean I can bequeath my watch). When someone asks me the time, and I tell them to the very minute, suppressing telling them the very second, I feel like an Englishman.

Beakybird

It will all mean diddly-squat if Casio still insists on NOT having a TAP TEMPO button. Every
other mfr understands the need for one. Players
like me who play off the cuff according to their mood and the mood of the crowd need it, and so does anyone who accompanies a singer with an arranger keyboard. I'ts not like it's an expensive add-on, the cheapest kbds today have tap tempo..all but Casio. wtf????????

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Miami Mo