I reported this fantastic Leslie 122 simulator last month with no play on it. I have since bought it and tried it on all of my keyboards. Eventhough there is a marked difference in the KN7000,G70, Nord Electro, and Kurzweil 2661, the main stumbling block was to have one keyboard do it all. In other words, if you run the mains into the Ventilator, you can hit bypass and play other instruments, but not full Leslie on left and straight sax e.g on the right hand.

The Technics and Roland can't put drawbars to direct out, but I found a way to to it on the G70, and it sounds really great. Instead of directing the drawbars to direct out, I reversed everthing, including sequencer, to direct, and kept one left and one right keyboard part on main. This way, I can manipulate left or right drawbars on the fly and choose any instrument in addition. If I want to play over a midi, it, also, bypasses the Ventilator.

I'm telling you guys I have had many Leslies, Motion Sound Pro-3, and Nord, and outside of a real Leslie, there is nothing that comes close to the Ventilator.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=na...+rotary+speaker

Bernie..how does it sound compared to Native Instruments B4?

Listening here in my studio (clips from YouTube)..and B4 on my MediaStation..the B4 is Superior..What about A B in real live?

The Hammond XK3c thru the new Leslie is by far the best combination I have heard (maybe better than most B3's)..
but a 7 G package should sound great..

On the G70, the #57 rotary works best..I select an organ without the sampled lelie...edit the #57 MFX woofer speed to 6.70hz and the tweeter speed to 6.75hz..and it really sounds good (in stereo naturally)..

The HB Leslie is a bit too mild for me..and no parameter changes are there..

Please don't take this the wrong way but, it seems to me everyone is looking for the definitive organ (usually 'B3', although that could represent any one of over 100 million different registrations) but if you listen to most of the music posted (not counting mine), hardly any contains any organ parts. Is this similar to the eternal quest (by synth players of all stripes) for the 'ultimate' piano, although most of the ones most critical, suck at playing acoustic piano.

I think 90% of the organ voices available on today's TOTL synths, including arrangers, are more than adequate when used in an ensemble setting. Why aren't we more critical of brass and strings and bass? They're much more prevalent in the average arranger style than piano. The truth is, the reason most organ parts sound 'less than authentic' has less to do with the quality of the Leslie simulation than the fact that most non-organ players don't use an expression pedal. I've heard any number of leslie sims on a variety of synths, hardware and software, including my own Nord C1, and I defy any of you to positively (as in, your life depended on it) identify which was a real Leslie and which was a sim. I'm not saying that a certain hardware simulator may not sound better than an on-board one (with SOME registrations), I'm just saying, before you lay out all that 'moolah' expecting a little black box to turn you into the next Jimmy, or Joey, or Klaus, or Claudia, remember to use your ears rather than the hype to decide (then send half of your savings to me as an 'advice fee'.

chas

Fair enough Chas. I certainly agree that one has to use their ears AND know what a Leslie 122 sounds like in the first place. Personally, I love to hear a Leslie ramp up and down. If one is satisfied, as many of you are, use your internal sims and be happy, but a #57 rotor is not good enough for me. Don't get me wrong,as many people don't even know what a Leslie is and wouldn't care. In my case, I know there is a profound, not miniscule, difference using the Ventilator, as opposed to the internal sim of the Nord Electro II, G70,Kn7000, and Kurzweil KB3 section.

The terrible tradeoff you get from reversing outputs on the G70 (or pretty much any closed arranger) is that you give up the effects in their entirety. Aux outs are generally bone dry, no chorus, no reverb, no echo, no nothing. If you play in a big room, maybe not such an issue with reverb, but many of our sounds (take chorused and autopanned Rhodes, for instance) use effects extensively to sound right.

Sadly, once upon a time, way back in the day, there was always a pool of inquisitive tinkerers that would look to the innards of many keyboards (even their OS's) and come up with hardware and software solutions to modify a factory keyboard to be more flexible (DX7, Korg synths, Ensoniq stuff, many others). The back pages of Keyboard Magazine used to be full of people extending the capabilities, sometimes in radical directions.

But lately? Bugger all, mate!

I for one would HAPPILY pay a decent price for a mod to my G70 that routed the HB section to an individual out. I've run the HB section through my Motion Sound Leslie, and yes, while it isn't as spot on as a C2 or XK3c, it's an AWFUL lot better than the built in sim, especially to the player (chas doesn't really take the performer's gut reaction to the swirling sound next to you in to account, IMO).

Sure, the average listener can't tell the difference, but the average listener doesn't care much about the difference between a bad Mexican Strat copy and a REAL USA Strat, either. But you BET the player feels it!

Chas IS right that the performance itself make MUCH more difference to the realism for the audience than the gear, and for organ parts, an expression pedal is absolutely de rigeur (and a keyboard part that can be set to fixed velocity, Fran, which the G70's sampled organ Tones can't - E series can, though), but, once you take those for a given, then the realism of the Leslie starts to factor into it.

Let's face it, chas, for all your 'they can't tell the difference' line, you actually spent nearly three GRAND on a C1, didn't you? Why not just get a Sonic Cell and be done with it?! Or maybe it IS more about the sound than the player, at least once you are past the basic level...?

I completely agree that the performance itself, for ANY imitative sound, is the primary thing that sets whether something sounds realistic or not, strings, brass, keyboards, you name it. But once you DO get the performance right, the sound itself starts to factor in bigtime...

Boy, talk about hijacking poor Bernie's thread completely......apologies, Bernie, I started it.

However, I had trouble finding the 'they can't tell the difference' line in my post....old eyes, I guess. What I meant was, for the way most members use organ lines in their styles, performances, recordings, etc., the on-board organs seem suited to the task (solo organ, maybe not ). On the other point, I only use one board in an organ trio setting. I wouldn't think of using anything other than a dedicated organ in that setting (neither would you). For me, it's all about recreating the old jazz organ trio of the 60's and 70's which was always organ, drums, and guitar plus 1 (vocalist, sax player, etc.). In those days, club goers expected to see at least that many players. I only knew of one OMB back then Organ and early drum machine), although there were a few solo performers on piano or organ. In most of the jazz clubs today in the Atlanta area, there are usually 4-6 players plus the usual drop-in guests. They aren't making much money but the music lives on (even if the players are starving to death ).

chas

Oh, BTW Bernie, check out the 'sim' on the Nord C1, C2, or Electro III. They're supposed to be much improved over the previous generation. I don't know this for sure as I am unfamiliar with the Electro II.

chas

Hey, I always welcome Diki's comments, and, yes,I am speaking of solo organ passages. As a solo act, I mix instruments at will, and in the band, I am called on to provide whatever backup I judge that's needed, in addition to soloing. In a purist sense, I would agree with your premise, but in my world, I have to be a jack of all trades, and perhaps, a master of none, but what a ride.

Diki
Thanks for the downside of reversing things, but, it works for me, as I have reverb on the Bose mixer. I realize that the reverb is global, but I love the Roland organ tones and the Ventilator makes it truly authentic. I quess I will have to live with an imperfect solution, but it sure beats using the mains and the internal rotory sim.

Bernie

Sorry, chas. I just wasn't expecting that line from you, of all people! Personally, I don't want to sound like Jimmy, or Claudia or Joey on a B3. I want to sound like ME on a B3!

Currently, I sound like me on a G70!

It was this line "I think 90% of the organ voices available on today's TOTL synths, including arrangers, are more than adequate when used in an ensemble setting" that set me off. Statically, maybe yes, you can get away with them. But if you use the Leslie dynamically they immediately fall apart, and sound, even in an ensemble setting, like the synths they are. Just like, even if you voice a brass section perfectly, and phrase perfectly, an unrealistic brass sound will shoot you in the foot every time. At least, to the trained ear. And, let's face it, realism is what we ALL are shooting for with arrangers, otherwise we'd be on synths!

Back to Bernie... That IS an outstanding Leslie sim, best I think I've heard yet. Just mad I can't use it, because I'm not willing to give up all my effects for just the one sound. I'm surprised that you haven't managed to get the K2661 to use the Ventilator without interfering with the other sounds. I have a K2500 with KDFX, and it is possible to route any sound, WITH its' associated effects to a separate pair of outputs, run it through an external processor, AND return it to the main mix (if you are perverse enough to be determined to do that!) of the Kurzweil using Live Mode and the audio inputs...

Mind you, why even bother with that last step if you carry a small mixer pre-monitoring?

If I had a Ventilator, that's how I would be dealing with the KB3 mode, anyway... Turn off the Leslie sim in the K (but leave the Vib/Chor on) and route to a separate output. Job done! I used to do that with my Motion Sound all the time.

Chas
You could very well be right, but we are talking about degrees of betterment. I have already improved my sim immeasurably. Now, the forums I frequent speak of the improvement with their C1 Nords and the latest Hammond-Suzuki boards. I am speaking of pros not duffers. The bottom line is that the Ventilator makes the worst sound good and the best sound better.

Diki
You are right. I didn't post accurately regarding the K2661. I know that it can be done. I haven't used the Ventilator with it, but once, to test it out. The problem is that I just got it and haven't got other reg's up to speed to go with it. I got too many toys at one time.

Thing is, Bernie, if you are using the arranger section, you are now reverbing the hell out of your kick and bass guitar. Mud city (unless the reverb levels are so low that you might as well not have them on instruments that DO need it)...

Me, if I want a much better B3 than is in the G70 (I don't do enough that features it so nakedly that I can't get away with the G70's HB section at the moment), I would look around for a used Nord Electro2 Rack. To be honest, even discounting the Leslie, the G70's HB section is a LONG way away from being authentic, the Vib/Chor isn't right, the distortion is a joke (POST-fader! Give me a break!), and the response and even SOUND of the drawbars is not as good as most dedicated sims... No way to get it bass-y enough (no separate EQ for ONLY the HB section, which is the one that needs it the most)...

What did the Ventilator cost you? I would imagine you could get a good used Electro2 Rack for little more than double what just the Ventilator cost new, and you get awesome Clav's and Wurli's (weak in the G70, IMO) thrown in for free! Not to mention, your full G70 back, effects, MFX's etc. included...

Since I haven't tried this out in the field, I didn't know about the loss of effects, and adding global might very well wind up as you say. Thanks for the advise. The Ventilator is $450 plus $49 shipping from Germany.

I've seen Nord Electro Racks for around $700+, from time to time...

Taking my Electro board is no trouble. I am trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, I guess. I am going to try different reverb combinations and if it doesn't work, I have plenty of other ways to go.

Forgot you already had one of those!

Yep, it does seem you are gilding the lily...

But if you get happy with the G70/Ventilator combo, drop me a line and we'll talk about your E Rack... (seeing as Nord have dropped racks for the E3 )

I don't have a E-rack. It's a 61.

As light and great as they are, I'd STILL stick to that, myself...

As you might have gathered, I am a HUGE Nord fan

Are you running a true full-stereo amplification system with the simulator?


TIA,


--Mac

True stereo is one of the biggest problems with Leslie sims, especially built-ins... Many do not offer a stereo WIDTH parameter (only the G70 MFX VK sim has that, the HB section has no controls at all), and if you play out live with your speakers say 20' apart, the Leslie is 20' wide too. Unrealistic. Fine for the 3' separated internal speakers, but a 20' wide Leslie? Leslie NEVER built one of those!

Mac
No,I'm running through my Bose. There is a simple rewire that can convert the module to stereo if needed.

I am playing the B4 on the MediaStation..into the Roland BA330 stereo amp..and it sounds great..just the right separation for the Leslie simulator...For me you can't beat B4...

As Bill mentioned I also have the VB3 organ software..it sounds great too..but not up there with the B4..

Fran
I have B4II on the Receptor and I think it is as good as the Nord. It adapts well to the Vent also. In stereo, I'll bet it sounds good.

Bernie, I have the original B4 and B4II..I think I like the original best...but both are simply hard to beat..

The MediaStation gives me all the hardware control surface to make the B4 shine..

I don't come away from the Nord products with the same feeling..they don't light my fire..and I don't see the same excitement that Diki and Chas has for the Nord..sorry, it ain't no B4..

And the pianos...give me a break.. They don't measure up to other dedicated stage pianos..

Add the lack of realtime "old fashioned slider draw bars...and you have

Fran, you're talking software with the B4, so I'd say that the controller(s) had some effect on the performance. I know that the voice itself sounds pretty good but I also know that there isn't a single ORGAN PLAYER in world that would opt for a B4 (with whatever controller) over a Nord C1 or C2, with or without drawbars (or even an XB3c, especially if it had bass pedals and an expression pedal). With organs, you can't leave out the 'playability' factor.

chas

Chas, as I mentioned before..the Hammond XB3c is in a class by itself..there is no finer hardware organ on the market to top it...

BTW: where are these organ players that endorse the Nord..
I can't think of a single player that would not want real draw bars...except you..

Here again, people read what they want to hear. Where did I mention the word 'endorse'? I said they'd pick a Nord Cx over a software organ. Also, I have never said (EVER, EVER) that I preferred Nord's system over real drawbars. But I prefer it over the cost, weight, and setup time of a TWO-manual XB3c system. I also think they match up pretty well in the tone and Leslie sim departments. If it were to be set up permanently in my home, I'd probably go for a full-blown XB system, maybe even over an authentic 'B3' (maintenance, etc.). Not sure. Would depend on the condition of the B. People on this board DO have a way of putting words into people's mouths.

chas

All posts I have read say you can get used to it pretty fast, but it is not the same as grabbing a fistful of drawbars. In spite of this small initial workaround, I like my Electro II and would like a C1 or C2 better, and at $1400 it suits me fine.

Maybe I got confused with this quote..

Most Leslie sims through mono sound worse.

Reduces the thing to sounding like a guitar amp tremelo in some cases.

I don't place my keyboard stereo speakers at either side of the stage, though, they are both right behind me, on stands. For larger stages, I do point them as much as 190 degress out to either side, but still right behind my head. They are back to back and pointing sideways as far as the audience is conerned when I do that. Most of the time, I aim them slightly outwards at about a 37 to 45 degree angle, though.

Leslie simulation is rather nice this way.

And I HAVE to have good Leslie, having used the real thing for too many years.

At the end of the day, no matter what anybody says, the Leslie is a spatial effect. I needs me some Doppler.


--Mac

[This message has been edited by --Mac (edited 01-16-2010).]

Diki,

Thank you very much for telling me why I don't care for the G70 HBs. I have tried and tried but in the end I just don't like them. One of the reasons I bought the G70 was I thought the HBs were supposed to be tops. I thought the Leslie sim was supposed to be very good also but again it leaves me wanting. Thanks for the explanation.

Tom