Lot's of talk about needing new arrangers with 'groundbreaking' technology here, lots of technolust, but so far, I've seen little discussion of WHAT we actually want that really IS groundbreaking. Mostly, I hear a litany of features that already exist on one arranger or another, and we want them combined into one.

But, let's talk about what new features we'd like to see that DOESN'T exist in any current arranger...

Ideas?

Built in music lessons.

An APPLAUSE sign that automatically lights up and cues the audience at the end of each song.

Larger drum symbols on the TOTL 'Pro' models.

In addition to pitch correction, also NOTE and CHORD correction.

Built in drink coasters.

Portable urinal that drops down from bottom of keyboard.

Built-in pop-up tip jar with fake start-up money.

Pop-up TV screen (for built-in DVD player) to watch while the keyboard entertains the audience. Porn movies optional, or, if Yamaha, could study PSR tutorial during the performance.

If Audya or MS, built-in toolkit and copy of schematics (and OS reload instructions).

Chord Sequencer (for the one person that will use it ).

OISAC for a logo (that's Casio spelled backwards).

chas

You've been stealing genesys's ideas again, haven't you? No wonder he wouldn't talk about what was in the box... You missed the Viagra dispenser, BTW I used to have an OISAC, but strangely, the keys were on the underside. Had to sell it to an Australian.

Funny stuff, but I WAS kind of hoping someone would take the thread seriously...

Dual manual arranger, along the lines of the Nord C1 organ...same weight, but with full blown arranger features and perhaps drawbars.

Both manuals could be 61, or the lower could be 76 or 88, with a split feature.

There are Atelier organs set up this way, but none are as portable as something like a Nord C1.

Ian

Good one, Ian. Sounds a bit like an Abacus Pro (but lighter), though.

Wery usefol tool in right(or left)corrner on the scren can be a simple clock.On borring gigs you dont allways look on the wach,when gig was finish...
Whay we cant call styles with you voice?Ewery mobilephone haw tis fukcion.

Real-sounding instruments of those instruments you hear in live bands. Drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, steel guitar, mandolin, banjo, fiddle, strings, piano, organ, accordion, harmonica, congas. Even it were only a dozen, it would be acceptable. I mean dead on, not a pretty good rendition.

A multi-track recorder, so that you don't need a DAW of any sort. Could plug in guitars, etc.

A screen 8.5" wide that scrolls in sync with the song.

Totally wireless, no cords at all.

In lieu of the above, a PA built into the stand. Put the arranger on the stand, start playing.

Storage for unlimited lead sheets. Press a button and transpose the lead sheet to a new key.

A separate screen that flips out on each side of the arranger for your bandmates to view the lead sheet in real time.

Buttons that you could trigger just by looking at them. Even better than that, mind-recognition technology so that when you think ADD STRINGS, it does it.

Ask me in about a week, my Audya should be here in about an hour.

I like the two manual idea. In fact a VR-700 stacked with a Prelude sounds good right about now.

30lbs max
2 keyboards
more global settings vs registration settings
large color souchscreen

brain freeze...

http://mofojo.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/readytoplay.jpg

t.

OK, here goes a few...

A combination of arranger AND arpeggiator functions. Two totally different things, combined as one. Best of both worlds.

More Variations (say six), more Fills (one per possible destination, that would be sixteen for a four Variation arranger), and a break/fill for every Variation (Ketron already got that one!).

Styles grouped according to which ones can be switched to on the fly, seamlessly. Say ten styles, all stylistically similar, same orchestration of the rhythm section, but with different horn, string and keys parts. But same pocket for them all.

The return of the Swing value knob. Take a Straight 8 all the way out to overswung and back, with a LOCK, so if you change styles, the same swing value gets imposed. New Jack to rock, same pattern...

Audio drum loop capabilities (like Ketron), but with a 'match groove' command, so MIDI Parts get adjusted to the groove of the audio loop (computers do this easily).

Some kind of Looper (OK, OK, you know I'm talking about the return of the Chord Sequencer It's just that I want to be able to play my trombone without using a bloody SMF again!).

Front panel switches completely reconfigurable. WHAT you want, WHERE you want it!

A 'cue mix' output pair, with a variable 'more me' knob, so you can hear what you play nice and clear, but main mix is more balanced.

OK, keep them coming...

I barely use 25% of my E-80's functionality, and I've only had it eighteen months. Ask me again in another six to eight years.

I only use 25% of my brain... ask me again in six years when I'll only be using 2%

What I want next is just an upgrade of what I already have...I can't believe it can not be done with a new OS...

I want my G70..improved:

A media player..the one they use on the Prelude would be perfect..

More parameter control with the HB organ module..especially the Leslie simulator..

The "chord sequencer"..I am the other guy that used it..

And a "super" expansion card, that you can select all your favorite sounds from the Roland library..

This would make the current G70 the best possible instrument for me...and i wouldn't complain about the 46 pounds....at all!!!!..

My MediaStation..

A couple of software quirks fixed..namely a couple problems when playing SMF's using the Giga sounds..fixed to work as good as the GS sound chip on player one..

CDG upgrade to work..hopefully on the existing hardware..

A volunteered sound designer that would make available a "Super" GM giga sound table...and another that would be Yamaha ready for Live Styler..

Notice!!! This is a very short list for the MS...so I guess it "ain't so bad"..


Why stop here?

My Prelude..offer an upgraded key bed...maybe the Juno Stage keybed would be great...also add a Mic input that is linked to an effects unit..

Increase the internal memory so more than 200 SMF's with lyrics can be stored in memory..


I want all the above..without buying a "new" board...Most can be accomplished with out buying a new board...Maybe the Juno Stage keybed..would be a toughie..

Not exactly on topic, but the Xenios gives you a number of the features mentioned.

The closest to the 2 manual Nord is probably the Wersi Xenios, which has a 10” touch screen and comes in at just under 50lb.
Combine the above with the VB3 VSTi for your authentic Hammond emulation.
For those that want sounds that are as close to real as you can get, drop in the Free Kontakt 4 Player VSTi and buy just the instruments you want, (There are a boatload out there) and which can also be used in styles. (Including Yamaha styles)
It also has style compose pre-sets (Step time) where you can pre-program your own chords fills breaks etc., and combine with any style you choose. (It also allows you to still use fills variations and chords etc. live, to allow flexibility)(Style compose pre-sets are independent of other pre-sets, unless specifically saved in them)
You can store up to 9 styles per registration pre-set, and if you add the Rhythm designer you get a 4 track Arpeggio/loopier (You can load your own loops if you want) which can be used in tandem with the arranger, independent of the arranger or a combination of the 2. (You can use VSTi sounds for your arpeggios/loops if required)
Downside
It only has a 49 note upper, sliders instead of drawbars and costs €6950 http://www.wersimusic.com/xenios.html

Bill

Good opportunity to pick one up for pennies in the Wersi fire sale.



[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 01-16-2010).]

Perhaps this is not quite what you are looking for, but how about an output to control light show(s). Generic for most midis and styles, but also programable when necessary. Must be keep simple.

I read that you can use midi to do this, but it seems like it was quite an undertaking.

Ed

Definitely like to see more variations per style, rather than more intros/endings...I'd like to see at least 8 variations, with the appropriate number of fills.

The Swing knob would be an excellent idea...Yamaha had something like this several years ago on their arrangers...a"groove" function button right on the panel, but it wasn't implemented as good as it could have been, and it only worked for internal styles.

I'd also like the to see the on-board Audio to USB recorder on the Tyros/PSR increased to at least 4 tracks.

Ian

Fair enough, but here's my problem. For every wish out there that would be granted, there would probably be one guy (the wish's author) using it. Take the chord sequencer, for instance. If it were to be reinstated (at great expense to the manufacturer) in a TOTL arranger, you'd have the same two guys using it (Fran and Diki) that used it in the G1000. The other 49,998 users would either see no use for it, consider it more trouble than it was worth, or be completely oblivious to it's existence. I'll bet that if we could see ANY of the major manufacturer's wish lists, the feature requests would number in the thousands. How do they determine which ones would translate to a better bottom line if implemented? Who do they ask? I'm guessing the dealers who sell them and have direct access to customer feedback.

Most feature requests fill a need for a specific individual but is meaningless or insignificant to most everyone else. We want a keyboard to have the keybed/keyfeel of a Steinway but weigh 12lbs. We want waterfall keys to do our organ smears but not when we're doing our piano licks. We want it to perfectly duplicate the pipe organ in St. Peters Cathedral but we don't want to pay over $600. I think wishlists are futile, frustrating, but fun; the three F's. But hey, keep it up. I'm sure it gives the R@D guys at the big three a good laugh with each new RE-issue.

Sorry to sound so negative, but you're just going to have to take what those pre-senile ol' farts give you .

chas

Hi Chas
They do get thousands of wish lists, however when a particular feature keeps popping up, they take notice.
If they didn’t get plenty of wish lists they wouldn’t know what users required. (Remember dealer feedback comes from users, so there is nothing wrong with cutting out the middle man. IMO

Bill

Hi,
the addition of some sort of a universal style & sound format that would allow any keyboard to load the same basic set of bread n' butter styles Factory & User. Still have it's own fancier mega sound styles or audio loop styles in it's native format.
Just means that when changing keyboards these styles will play back perfectly whether it be on yamaha, ketron, whatever.

Bit like what GM did for the song file.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki
I have said this before, and to prove it works, you only have to look at the PA 800 styles you posted/created which were balanced for GM2, and which users have found to work almost spot on when converted to other keyboards.

Bill

Hands/feet free style & setting changes...

Find a way through the use of cutting edge optics technology or something where you just have to look at the option you want to change and you're enabled with the ability to do so without using either your hands or feet...

There's a technology that severely disabled people use...perhaps that's what I'm thinking of.

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Hi Bill,
my intial aim in trying to use GM2 sounds where practicable, was so that, should I decide to change keyboards down the track, less hassles if I do need to convert to another style format. Don't want to lose some of them.
Didn't expect them to convert quite as well as they appear to have done.
Unfortunately CONVERSION software still plays a part. EMC does still do some odd things. The thing that annoys me the most is the apparent removal of multiple tempo changes in intro'/endings. This messes some of the lovely intro's & endings up.

I suppose if I needed to choose a universal style format for user friendly styles , it would be Yamaha's, because it's pc friendly.

best wishes
Rikki

I want one that will drag itself through 10 inches of snow into the gig. I want it to set itself up and when it has done that I would like it to bring me a beer. I can't get my wife to do any of that either.

Tom

I want there to be a separation of the style sounds from the left/right hand sounds.

So that there are sounds for the master keyboard that we can use for live playing.
The sounds for styles are in a separate place.
With that, You can have for example, a set of 200 sounds that would only be used for styles. Now the manufacturer can commission style programmers to create hundreds of styles for that sound set. Then you sell the sound and style pack separate from the master keyboard maybe as a software download or an expansion card.

So take the G70 for example. I think it has 2 expansion slots?
On one expansion card, you would have a set of sounds that are used exclusively with those styles on that card.

And, if all brands were to have this feature, you could interchange the cards between keyboards.

It is kind of like all stereo sets are different (they have different eq and play back settings) but they can all play CDs.

all i require is a DVD and hard copy manual for each and every arranger or synth produced going forward.

The DVD should be divided into 3 segments

1. Getting started , basic funtions and features how they work
2. Sound and style and song creation with in depth demos of editing, changing , routing and editing effects.
3. Advanced user with tips and tricks to achieve quicker results for both home/studio play and live play.

If the DVD is good enough i would pay extra for it.

Hi Spalding
Nice idea, but manufactures what you to upgrade to their latest model so that they can continue with their bonuses, if they showed how you could get virtually the same results with your existing board, their bosses would soon put them out to pasture.

A Paper manual is good, but is expensive and doesn’t do the planet much good, however with the prices of E-Readers dropping a PDF file is all that would be needed. (This thread might interest you http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020687.html )

Bill

I am not really qualified to talk on behalf of the pros here, who make a living out of their instruments,

but,

what I have found out listening to all of you is that it is not the sounds themselves, it is the player who plays (controls) the sounds.

I think that what you should demand is a new instrument with the same quality sounds as found in PSR 910 and above, which is satisfactory enough for most of you sonically, but with enough logic behind the style department to assist and compliment the player of the lead sounds.

Sure, a real sounding guitar backing is nice to have, but a way to add even more control of the style backing would be the way to go.

Some people here have said that it would be nice for the arranger to know in advance what the next chord would be, so the bass would "walk" its way there, much like a real bass player would do. Of course if you had the capability to "announce" to the system what the next chord would be, the bass would not be the only instrument affected, guitar parts might also follow, for a more realistic "real band" effect.

My theory is that this "bass player plays a path to the next chord" thing does not happen all the time. Many songs have such chord changes in the beginning of each bar.

So a way to do that would be to have a second set of keys, say only 1 1/2 octave long, on the left hand, above the main chord recognition region on the left of the main manual.

This second set of keys would exist for the occasions where you would like to "announce" the next chord, early in the previous bar, so the "rest of the band" would use the remaining bar time to perform the necessary steps towards the next chord change which would be the one you previously announced.

Of course this "second set of keys" could also be a second 25 key small midi keyboard, attachet to the G 80 or the Tyros 4 via midi.

Couldn't that work?

Thinking about what Trident said...what if there was a memory (not a recording) contained within the style of the basic chord structure?

------------------
Bill in Dayton

How about some audiences who appreciate real music?

Bill

Wouldn't that mean that you would have to prepare each different song beforehand and save the same style for every differnet song? Kinda like a midi file. YOu already have that capability.

With what I propose, (now if it is feasible or not is another matter, but no technical problem remains unsolved) you would have complete control of the "next chord", on the fly, and some nights, you could play tha same song but substituting some chords, just for variety.

Want #1:

Roland: PLEASE UPDATE your arranger chord voicing recognition table to include the following, of which Yamaha, Korg, Ketron and Technics already include:

II-V7-I Smooth Jazz Chord Progression Voicings (in ALL keys) as follow:

LEFT HAND:

Dm7(9): F1 - C2 - E2
G7(13): F1 - B1 - E2
C69: E1 - A1 - D2

C7(9): E1 - Bb1 - D2

F13 (2 handed Chord Voicing):
LH: (Eb1 - A1 - D2) + RH: (G2 - C3 - F3)

All above chord voicings need to be added in 'all 12 keys' of course.

Want #2: Roland: Please bring back the terrific CHORD SEQUENCER that you had in the G70/RA800. I found that feature VERY VERY useful. Hope Yamaha, Ketron, and Korg will consider adding this valuable feature on their arrangers as well.

Scott

I think we're getting away from reality here, just a hair! For Pete's sake! That Wersi is about $10,000...!

And PLEASE! An arranger that anticipates what the next chord is before you play it? The new Yamaha Kreskin? I am a real human (technically ) and even I can't tell what the next chord is going to be before someone plays it unless I already know the tune, AND the substitutions the player is going to use this time round, AND the form he is using this time (real players don't always play things identically each time)...

However, were Roland (or anyone, I don't care who) to return the Chord Sequencer (don't get it confused with something you put the changes in in advance, it worked on the fly), there IS a possibility for the chord sequence to be analyzed once the 'Play' button is hit, and at THAT point (the second time through the changes) the arranger could introduce voice leading and anticipatory walks, etc..

We've got to try and understand the difference between science, and science fiction, folks..! Don't give up your day job for that house gig on Pandora

Oh, and chas.... come to the Roland-arranger forum some time (and especially the old forum, now sadly offline) and you would see a LONG list of Roland users bemoan the loss of the Chord Sequencer. It's kind of like that sampler in your PA1X. Not that many people used it. Doesn't mean it wasn't a REALLY useful feature to those that do, and if Korg had dropped it for the PA2X, just because only the people that had used it would howl makes it no less vital a feature. I mean, do you REALLY want arranger manufacturers to strip their products down to what only the majority actually USE? Take a look at the low end... THAT'S what would be left!

I agree that perfecting some of the features that exist in our current arrangers should be first and foremost for the manufacturers' R&D teams, and a LOT of what's posted here is kind of that, but all in all I'm surprised at how little much of us want IS actually, firstly, not on another existing arranger, then secondly, withing the laws of physics!

You know what I would MOST like, to be honest (other than the bloody CS!)...?

I'd like to see bombproof copy protection for styles. Secure delivery, watermarked, serial# keyed, uncrackable copy protection for styles. THEN, all the talented people that make those killer ROM styles for each new arranger would be able to make a living keeping doing it in between model releases, secure in the knowledge that they won't get ripped off. Have you ever wondered WHY great styles are so unavailable except when a new model comes out? That's why... plain and simple.

Take theft out of the equation, they could sell them at a fraction of the price of current high quality styles and make tons MORE than they do now... And, let's be honest, many of us buy a new arranger primarily for the styles (OK maybe a new sound or two) but a never ending supply of great, ROM quality styles would keep most of us away from wishlists like this!

Sometimes, it's the LITTLE things that matter most...

WHAT!!!!!!!!! You mean my PA1X has a SAMPLER? Are you sure? Next you'll be telling me it has an on-board harmonizer, too. OMG, I'm going down to my studio and check it out right now. Oh well, I've only had the darn thing @ three years. It takes time to check out all those features. Thanks for the heads-up. Now if only it had 1 finger chord recognition; heck, I wouldn't even have to learn to play the darn thing. Oh well, maybe on the next model. I'm making a promise to myself to read the manual on that one.



chas

PS: Scottyee checked in with the chord sequencer thing, as well; so now you're up to THREE people .

Tying the sounds to an specific arranger is little problem, (Wersi has been doing it since OAS came out and Yamaha are now doing it with Tyros 3, (Not sure if the S710/910 incorporates it) so there is no reason why this couldn’t be applied to styles.

Bill

Right on, Diki...that's the only way they'll ever do the style thing successfully.

Ian

I don’t think Yamaha would be happy with you agreeing with such an idea.

What would be the basis for Yamaha being able to sell incremental upgrades to a keyboard?

If you put economic power in the hands of styles makers, then the manufacturers would have to have another reason to sell a keyboard other than styles.


It is nothing personal against professional style makers, its just business.


For example, if a style maker makes great styles for the T2 and they are copy proof, the style maker would just continue to make great style for the T2.
Now, when the manufacturer want to release a T3, they would have to have a lot more than new styles to sell the T3. Because, the customer would stay with the T2 if they know they can get great styles.


And, if you say that is B/S, then what would be the advantage to limiting the styles available to arranger users? After all, that is the selling point for Yamaha arrangers is that you can use styles from other keyboards for free.

And the selling point for a new arranger from Yamaha is new styles.

Finally, people would buy new arrangers completely for the new features, and the new sounds. And Yamaha would speed up its' incremental policy of development. The WS crowd EXPECT innovation and groundbreaking new technology, each model increase. And don't buy one until there IS. It's only arranger players that are lazy or dumb enough to buy a brand new model for maybe 20 new styles and a couple of sounds.

Somehow, Yamaha manage (along with all the other WS manufacturers) to make a living without such a bullsh*t 'upgrade' policy. Each new WS model has brand new features and sounds (in addition to the legacy sounds).

Why ARE so many of us clamoring for what is new? Because arranger development has essentially stagnated, as new models really only add new styles. The more forward thinking of them are leaving arrangers for WS's that at least TRY to make a token effort at innovation. That isn't good for the form, I believe. Many are howling for a new model when they have had their current one for less than a year. The manufacturers need to make something that TRULY satisfies the user, and let the style makers make a living...

I'm glad Yamaha made the S910...it is absolutely perfect for my needs.

Great little board, and updated incrementally perfectly from the S900.

They could leave things the way they are, and I'd be happy.

Ian

You and I are hardly representative here, though

Perfectly happy with what we have...

Thing is, I GUARANTEE you will get the next incremental PSR, no matter HOW happy you are with the S910. You were (at least publicly) equally happy with the S900, and said virtually the same exact things while you had that, too!

Me, I'm looking for 'revolutionary', not incremental. I waited through three or four Roland new models before one came out that sufficiently beat my G1000 as to make it worth while to upgrade. So, by my reckoning, even if Roland WERE on the same upgrade schedule that everyone else tries, I've got another five or more years before I would have probably been tempted.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if ALL the manufacturers just 'froze' things where they are for a while. Maybe we would get back to obsessing about MUSIC instead of equipment, again!

You have made some good points. And, although for the most part I may agree with you in theory, it probably will never happen in practice.


Why? Because as you know the majority of the arranger market don’t even use half of the features on their current boards (heck most of them don’t even edit or create styles).
So why would Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) go through the expense of R and D for new features that the user is not asking for and may not even understand the advancement?

If they can get away with a business model of incremental upgrades (S900 – S910) why change it if it is working for them?

It may be bad for the power user of arrangers but good for Yamaha’s bottom line.


And, workstations are not that far from that business model.

Hardly. People like "new", even if it is incremental...people buy new cars that aren't vast upgrades from the last one, but have a feature or two that they simply must have...same goes for TV's, I-Pods, recorders, etc.

I certainly didn't get the S910 because it had 10 0r 12 new styles...people didn't buy a T3 because it had 50 new styles...that would be crazy.

The basis of most luxury buys, and these arranger musical instruments are that, for the majority of buyers...most do not gig with them...is want, not necessarily need.

Ian

You're right, Diki...we aren't (or more likely, you), and thankfully for the manufacturers we aren't.

If they "froze" things the way they are, like Roland did with the G-70 and E-80, then they wouldn't make any money from TOTL arrangers, and would have to drop them from the line, and Yamaha would be in the same mess Roland is in.

Everyone has their own type of buying habits...I wouldn't have bought the S910 if it didn't have things I wanted...not necessarily needed...you tend to be more frugal, and not everyone is like you, especially when it comes to luxury items, and arranger keyboards are that for most buyers.

Plus, as I said earlier, buying amid-range is not the penalty it used to be, and it allows me to upgrade, however incrementally, if I so desire, without too much cost.

If it was a TOTL I had bought, like a G-70 or Tyros2, I'd be more likely to hang on longer.
Car makers change models incrementally every two to three years...there's a reason for that...it's called marketing, and they've been doing it for quite some time and very successfully (except for the US industry, but that's a whole different ball of wax).

Yamaha's marketing model may not be your cup of tea, but there is no denying it works...and that's the bottom line.

If they used your ideas for marketing, they'd be far less successful, but that's why you're a musician, and not into mnarketing...thanfully. ...you'd have the company in the hole in no time.

99% of "arranger" buyers consider the instrument a luxury item, not a tool for work like you.

Ian

I'm a bit of a luddite, my PSR3000 does everything I need, although if it blew up I'd be tempted by a PSR910.

Now if there was a PSR9xxx with 76 keys.....

I really meant PSR9xx, no allusion to PSR9000 pro intended!

Diki, lol, I wrote the whole thing above, with you in mind. I remember you stating that the "bass player" in an arranger, does not behave as a real bass player would because there is no way of knowing what the next chord will be.

Well, I presented you and everyone else with an idea, so that YOU, the player, will anounce the next chord to the arranger, WHILE you play. Thus, the arranges will know what the next chord will be beforehand and behave accordingly.

Please reread my post, maybe the fact that English is not my mother tongue got in the way.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 01-19-2010).]

Where did you guys find these real bass players that follow where you are going to go..chord wise..when we don't know what chord we are going to play..till it happens..

How hard is it to program a waking lead in bass line to your existing style..not that hard...If you play a seventh chord..you know it will take you to the one (root) chord..nearly always..just add the lead in walk with the bass..

OK, I think i get the joke now!!!!

I got this joke too.



chas