Just returned back from the NAMM 2010 show in Anaheim, California.

Manuel and I attended all four days, Thursday through Sunday, and got a chance to cover all the exhibits.

We had the pleasure of meeting Mark Anderson, Director of Marketing at Yamaha, at the Marriot Grand Ballroom. As usual he was very gracious, receptive and listened to all our comments on the current arranger line. Mark is a true gentleman and a helpful friend to all of us at Synthzone.

Martin Harris, developer for the Tyros line at UK, could not make it this year because of a leg injury. We did get to spend some time with Peter Baartmans. He gave us a jaw dropping demo on the new Yamaha CVP-509PM Clavinova. This has the new 5 layer sample from the Yamaha C6 Grand Piano. It sounded stunning.

We also got the pleasure of speaking with George Hamilton, Manager of the Keyboard Division at Yamaha. The entire staff at Yamaha is very friendly and makes you feel like family. This is a company that takes user input very seriously.

This year Roland took up the entire Arena floor at the NAMM Convention Center.

I got a chance to play on the Roland V-Piano based on modeling technology. Each and every note sounded crystal clear, coherent, and full bodied. It sounded like what a Grand Piano would sound with every note tuned to perfection. It was flawless, with no artifacts.

While every note was clear as a whistle, it lacked the warmth and granularity of the IVORY II samples. Everyone planning to buy a $6000 Roland V-Piano would almost certainly want to try out the new 18 layer IVORY II Grand Piano Samples by Synthogy.

I listened to the Steinway, Bosendorfer and Yamaha C7 Piano Samples offered in the $300 IVORY II package. I felt they had more warmth and conveyed a more human feeling compared to the machine like precision and clarity of the V-Piano.

This will be a personal choice. Indeed one must factor in the cost of a Muse Receptor 2 to have a stable host environment for these IVORY samples.

But here is the good news.

Roland released a SuperNATURAL Piano Expansion Board for the RD700GX containing 17 samples based on the V-Piano Technology.

Roland had the V-Piano next to the RD700GX outfitted with this $300 expansion card.
The new SuperNATURAL Grand Piano leaves the stock Expressive Grand Piano of the RD700GX in the dust.

The difference is so remarkable, that buying this $300 expansion board is a no brainer.
I compared each note played with the Expressive Grand against the SuperNATURAL Grand, and in every case, the SuperNATURAL Grand sounded more robust, more articulate, more clean with more depth and authority.

I am getting this board.

The Roland RD700GX 88 key Stage Piano has the best key action with synthetic Ivory tops and key escapement. The SuperNATURAL expansion board now gives it an exquisite Piano Sample to die for.

Roland has hit a home run.

Roland had a demo theater running all day to showcase their new gear. Hector Olivera gave an uplifted demo of the Roland Atelier AT-900 flagship organ. Listening to Hector live is always an unforgettable experience.

Roland also showed their new VP-7 Vocal Processor. While extremely easy to use with just 4 knobs and 9 buttons, it lacked the depth of programming and features offered by TC-Helicon's VoiceLive 2.

I listened extensively to all the VoiceLive 2 presentations at the TC-Helicon booth. I am sold. Even if you are not a singer, this product will pay for itself just for the fun and joy it will bring to a party. TC Helicon has got it just right. This is a must have tool for every Karaoke bar! I hear that our friend Frank Ventresca is a dealer for this product.

Speaking of Frank, we had the pleasure of dining with Frank and his lovely wife Irene at the Bucca di Beppo. They make a great couple and they are so down to earth and friendly.

It is already an open secret that Frank offers the best deals in the nation. It should come as no surprise that he sold 20% of all the Yamaha S910 arrangers in the US last year.

Everything about this trip went smoothly without a hitch. Thanks to a tip from our friend Scott, we got a great room at the Howard Johnson. This is conveniently located next to Mimi’s on South Harbor Boulevard.

Disney operates a free shuttle service for NAMM attendees Wednesday through Sunday from 7am to Midnight. Routes 4 and 5 takes you from the Disneyland Main Gate to the Anaheim Marriot.

We parked for free at the hotel and took this shuttle. This saved us a lot of money in parking at NAMM.

This trip was exciting and educational. We will be attending NAMM2011 next year and staying at the same place.

Here is another tip. Have your Breakfast and Dinner at Mimis next to Howard Johnson. They have the best food at very reasonable prices.

We hope to see Scott next year at NAMM.

I heard rumors about a Tyros 4!


Cheers,

Tapas

What a nice post. Not only informative, but just oozed of warmth and friendliness. Makes you want to meet a member like that in person (Rikki and George Kaye have that quality to their posts). No whining, no put-downs, no negatives, just good, helpful information put out there in a friendly manner that allows you read it without raising your blood pressure.

Thanks for the good first-hand info on Roland and the latest digital piano offerings (soft and hardware). At that price, I'm going to take a good hard look at Ivory.

chas

Hi Tapas, wow, thanks for that fine detailed Namm report. Tapas' writing style reflects just the way he is in person: meticulously organized , very intelligent and warm hearted. I was disappointed I wasn't able to make it to Namm this year, but Tapas' 'daily' telephone calls to me sharing his Namm highlights & experiences of the day made me feel I was there at the show like last year. I'm looking forward to making Namm 2011 and hanging out with my Synthzone buds there again.. . . Yamaha Tyros4?!

Scott

Tapas, I've seen all of Roland's demos for the V-Piano online, and actually, the feature that stood out for me MORE than just about anything is the ability to retune, or detune any and all of the strings to whatever degree you want (or in what area of the keyboard you want, it doesn't have to be even). So, if what you heard was entirely perfectly in tune, lacking 'character', I just don't think that you got a chance to explore this part properly...

But thanks for the report. Glad you came here and shared. Can't wait to try the V-Piano board fro the RD soon. Will it work with a FantomG?

Diki,

The SuperNATURAL Piano Expansion kit works only on the RD700GX. It does not work on the Fantom G series.

You are correct. The Roland V-Piano’s greatest strength is its infinite degree of customization. As this is based on pure modeling technology, every aspect of the tone generation can be tinkered to the last detail to satisfy the end users need.

A little unevenness in the tuning across the 88 keys can give this a more human like touch. Here with the V-Piano, we are approaching from the opposite end of the spectrum, trying to consciously introduce artifacts to make it sound more like the real thing!

This reminds me of the drum machines that sounded too perfect. Their timing had to be humanized to make it match the flaws and limitations of a real drummer.

At a street price of $6000, the V-Piano is out of reach of most musicians. If Roland could release a rack module around $1800 then any one with a 88 key weighted controller would be tempted to buy this.

The $300 piano expansion kit for the RD700GX will be an instant best seller. After playing on these new samples, it is hard to go back to the stock Expressive Grand, and Ultimate Grand.


Tapas

I thought that a piano sample is taken from a real piano, so if that real piano has character then the sample would.

I have no problem with a perfect sounding piano, though. But it doesn't surprise me that there's a market for the V-Piano.

Beakybird

Actually, the V-Piano MODELS the strings, rather like Modarrt's Pianoteq2 software, etc..

The big difference I see in this is that, although the fully sampled piano sets like Ivory (which I have also used, and like a lot) sound great, it is just ONE set of samples, from ONE piano with ONE tuning degree on it.

But with a V-Piano, you can make it more or less 'in tune', mess with the intonation, make it sound 'played in' or 'showroom' at will. For many people, that's not that big an issue, but for session players, having the ability to choose rough or smooth, or any degree in between, even having say a showroom low end but a bit more played in middle and upper, it all helps to make the performance less cookie cutter, more individual to the piece and how the band is playing.

Imagine all those old jazz classics, or Motown hits, with a PERFECT piano sound. They wouldn't hold up the way they do, IMO. Technology has made 'perfect' commonplace. But who wants to be 'commonplace'?

I am surprised that Roland did not offer any expansions for the Fantom G series, certainly the ARX Grand would have been great if it could be integrated into the Fantom. So whats up at Roland where the number one synth seems to be forgotten.

As far as the arranger market, please oh please can we put the synth versus arrangers aside and develop an all in one, that does it all, that works, and is reasonably priced. The first company to do this will scoop the market. Oh and more than 5 octaves a must, got a tyros 3 and allthough I love it, still needs more keys!!!

So you want an arranger AND a WS, but only want to pay for ONE of them?

Best of luck for that. I want a sports car and a station wagon combined, but I don't want to pay any extra for it, either!

Hi Dikki,

yep thats right, I want it all at an affordable price, isn't that what we all want?? is it that difficult for the makers to get it right, i believe unless that happens soon you will se the demise of the arranger market anyway because vst workstations will take over. So whilst i see your point Dikki, its the next logical step maybe Tyros4 PA3X Pro and so on. Honestly i cant understand why we all cant get together, commission a developer/maker to develop and make what we want, instead of being thrown bones with a bit of meat on it we could have it all, so take heed all makers, the day will come, people power could be the winner in the end, i have dollars, we all have dollars, this is a massive industry, take the middle man out and deal directly with the manufacturer (sorry dealers, you could be part of it in different ways if you think about it) has to be a cheaper option with better results. your thoughts allways appreciated.

Korg is already doing this with their PA2XPro...it even has 76 keys...you must have one of these, don't you?

Generally, and this has been my own experience, both in retail and as a clinician, most arranger buyers don't use the synth programming part of the instrument...they just want terrific presets...same goes for the style making features...hardly anyone uses them, unless they are shown how, via a clinic or a tutorial DVD.

The buyers for arrangers, and workstations are different most of the time...not always, but enough to keep manufacturers making both.

Ian

The PA2X is a WS from ten to fifteen years ago, Ian. It doesn't sport ANY of the features that are commonplace in modern WS's. No arpeggiators, no Karma, no audio loop slicing and matching and triggering, no audio multitrack recording, no REAL flexibility in part assignment, no rally contemporary drum sounds...

Trouble is, the way I see it, ONLY an outsider can bring off this mythical hybrid, because the current crop of slackers are already making too much money off having the lines separated. Want BOTH, you GOT to buy both...

Maybe Casio, the outsider on the inside, could pursue this, as it has little to offer either side at the moment, but anyone smaller has a big problem developing the content this would need. After all, for all the apparent difference between the lines, it is still the CONTENT, the sounds AND the styles and arp/loops that come with them that sell them off the shelves. Try selling one without any, you'll quickly see that WS users are as needy for high quality OOTB content as arranger users are...

Yes had a PA2X Pro, lots of trouble with the early model freezing and LEDS blowing so reverted to a yamaha T3, what I am saying is that the Manufacturers build with the drip feed in mind, ie dont make all the sounds SA2 and SA1, we want the purchaser to spend lots more with us. Thats ok, and would be if one did not replace the hardware every couple of years to stay up with the newer features that they release.

I still hold out hope that Ketron can get the Audya right and get the price down to a reasonable level, as it may be an answer to the question, but also as you commented Diki, Casio should come on board with this, change the name to anything else, develop and so on, what a winner, I dont care who makes it, as long as it soundsd great, was durable, has the features, and the upgradability to go with it/

They only drip feed us because we LET them drip feed us. Do what I do, don't buy anything until there really IS groundbreaking differences, and I bet you would see the pace of that innovation accelerate...

Just playing devil's advocate here, but, if everyone did that, sales would drop to zero and then what would be their motivation for sinking tons of money into new, inovative, R&D?

chas

We've always had the choice to buy or not to buy.

There will always be people buying for the first time.

Arrangers are certainly not the only products marketed with incremental differences...cars, phones, computers, food products...the list is very long.

Seems to be a successful marketing strategy.

The market will always do what it HAS to to survive. If the economy brought a final cessation of the madness we have all gone through, spending like crazy and beyond our means, upgrading for every specious reason, constantly clamoring for the new rather than appreciating what we had, IMO that wouldn't be a BAD thing.

We are all fairly convinced that the manufacturers COULD innovate at a faster pace, features only appear on an arranger line LONG after we all see them as obvious software only extensions of what they just released...

If we refused to buy a new arranger until those obvious features get added, and skip the one or two generations where they are just releasing a 'make time' product, I guarantee, rather than go out of business, they WOULD make sure that we REALLY want whatever new product they come out with.

You keep forgetting your power in a market driven economy. You ARE the market. YOU drive sales, not the manufacturers. When demand goes down, manufacturers scramble to find and fulfill that demand, to try to reclaim their market share. If you stop buying rotten tomatoes and say 'I'm not buying them because they are rotten' the farmer finds a way to get them to you fresh...

Consumer revolts have happened in the past, and can happen again if you want to. If you are tired of drip fed incremental updates, it is entirely in YOUR hands to do something about it. Of course, you've got to be prepared to do without tomatoes for a while while the farmer figures out how to get them to the market faster, but you're already stocked up pretty well...

All well and good Diki, and it's nice to see you trying to champion another little cause ...but, I'm afraid it ain't gonna work...too many people like the experience of buying.

I'm sure you aren't the first person to come up with that concept...and probably not the last.

First you have to convince Russ and Chas....and let's not forget Fran.

A nice gesture all the same.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-20-2010).]

Me, I prefer the experience of PLAYING

The truth is, strand any of us on a desert island with what we currently have, we would be just fine.

And, it's not a 'little cause', it's a philosophy. Find your inspiration in what YOU do, not some third party supplied technology, and you'll be free of the NEED for constant updates.

Free at last, free at last...

I prefer the experience of playing what I buy...I'm not going to buy something I won't use, or won't enjoy.

I still have the choice...that's freedom.

This "philosophy" of yours is nothing new...in fact, these ideas were probably tossed around when the first caveman started selling stone axes that had a little different shape than the earlier ones.

We all like improvements, incremental or otherwise, and if we decide they are enough to buy a new item, then we've exercised our freedom of choice.

I'm sure I could have done fine keeping my S900, but I just happened to really like the SA Organ sounds on the S910...I liked my PSR-3000, but I liked the SA Sax and Guitar on the S900.

Am I wrong? Of course not.

Are you wrong in keeping your old G-70? Of course not....you're happy with enough of it to get buy.

Thing is, your "philosophy" is not for everyone, as idealistic as you feel it is...you like to be frugal, and that's a wonderful way to be, if it makes you feel content.

But there are just as many of us who feel that life is short, so why not have exactly what we want...now. That's a "philosophy" too.

Your way is okay...but, I kind of like mine more.

Ian

That lack of frugality is what has sent the world into an economic tailspin, made over 10% unemployed (the figures for full employment are a disaster) even here in the US, and brought great harm to the reputation of the captains of finance that told us to do JUST what you are telling us. Spend more... you deserve it/need it/want it/should have it...

All the time, ignoring that what we have is just fine.

Anyone with even one eye open can see the writing on the wall. What we are doing is unsustainable. Diminishing returns, and exponentially increasing consequences. But yeah, that new guitar NTT is a MUST have!

Me indulging in what I want for myself is hardly injurious to society...if I couldn't afford it, then it would be a different matter...the cost of an upgrade works out to less than the price of a Tim Horten's coffee a day...hardly tailspin material.

The people who bought beyond their means still had a choice...the banks, and whatever, made it easy perhaps, but the customer who does not look into things fully before they sign on the dotted line, has no one to blame but themselves.

Ian

Wow, this is a great discussion but Ian is right when he echoes what I have always said, that is, personal philosophies are valid for that individual but not necessarily for everyone else. 'What's good for the goose is good for the gander' only works for you if YOU'RE the goose.

Since Ian referenced us, I can say that I don't think Russ or I strictly fit into either category (frugal or spendthrift). Both of us buy a lot of stuff but not much of our 'discretionary spending', aka toy-buying, is spent on constantly updating the same old gear (tyros2 - tyros3, PA1x - PA2x, etc.). I get much more of a kick out of buying something completely new (Nord C1, Fantom G, DM10 drum kit, about to buy a Handsonic 10, etc.) than upgrading my arranger to next model just for the sake of a few new voices or styles (in this sense, I agree with Diki). I want something that makes me think about music in a new way, or gives me an appreciation for an area or aspect of music that I've spent 50 yrs. ignoring or taking for granted. Just going by the music posted here, arranger music doesn't even remotely sound like non-arranger music. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying that I prefer one over the other, even if it's not as 'polished'. It just sounds more 'honest' to me. JMO.

One thing I don't agree with. Diki thinks the result of our not buying new (arranger) offerings would be that the manufacturers would scramble to put out bigger, better, more innovative stuff (to win us back). I don't. I think the result of that would be a repeat of what happened to the home organ market; it would go the way of the dinosaurs. Of course, this is all speculation. In the end, our own personal philosophies and buying habits are what will drive the market and the direction of the manufacturers. Drip, drip, or one big gush; it doesn't matter to me. I'm looking for the best price on a Handsonic and a Mic that'll make me sound good. On that last one, I'm waiting on a recommendation from Fran but obviously he hasn't found one yet .

chas

PS: Fran, if you read this, I'm just kidding .

Good post Chas. I don't agree with buying for tiny upgrades, but in my case, upgrading to the S910 gave me two great B-3 emulations that I positively love...I even find myself playing my old Hammond licks when using these sounds, so they are good.

It saved me the cost of getting a clonewheel for the several organ tunes I play, so in a sense, I'm actually being frugal.

One "philosophy" does not work for all, but we can take bits and pieces of another's if they are helpful in our own lives.

BTW...I just got (today, actually) some great MP3's of Jimmy Smith's The Sermon, volumes one and two complete...and they included the liner notes and some biographies (and pictures) of the cats who played with him...I'm really lovin' them...he sure was a master of the B-3.

Ian

Ian, not that it matters, but I thought you didn't have to pay for your Yamaha.
DonM

That he was, and it's very gratifying to me to see the current masters of that style of organ playing, Joey D., Tony Monaco, et al, pay tribute to the 'original'. He revolutionized jazz organ and made an indelible mark on the jazz world. I think that he, more than anyone, (re-)popularized the Hammond B3 and made it an enduring part of the jazz and rock lexicon. Enjoy your 'new' albums. They'll always be THE benchmark for jazz organ.

chas


[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 01-20-2010).]

If I only use the instruments for Yamaha work at home (demo rehearsals) and for demos/clinics, they don't cost me anything...I just send them back when a new model comes out.

If I'm using them for personal use, as in gigging, I have to buy them...I get the employee's discount.

Usually, if I really like an instrument for gigging, I'll buy it right away, as I never know when it will be recalled/replaced. I bought my last three samples...the PSR-3000, the S900, and now, the S910...the latter is the best overall arranger I've ever had, including the T1, T2 and T3...it just feels right. MOTL instruments are no longer a penalty to play/own, and only purchased because the TOTL was unaffordable...I bought the S910 totally on choice.

Ian

Lately (the past few years), I have been feeling guilty about spending so much on "toys" when there is so much need in the world (like Haiti, right now).

I now use a factor of 2X. When I buy a toy, I send 2 times the cost to a deserving individual or organization. In fact, I'm seriously thinking of selling off lots of "toys" I never use and donating the proceeds.

At my stage of life, that would make me feel good.

But don't worry; I'll still find the time and funds to......PLAY! (and get new toys).

Russ "big kid" Lay

That's true about Arpeggiators/Karma Diki (OH how I would LURVE some Karma... ) but the PA2x (and the PA1x) does indeed have Loop slicing and matching and triggering - I do it myself at gigs for Dance Remixes of songs - however, the problem I see with the Korg is :

All that power (editing, sampling & such) and too much complexity in achieving it!

(and not enough RAM really...)

I wish the PA series was a little more User Friendly - like the Rolands actually!

Or maybe I'm a little dim when it comes to grappling with OS's......

Well, ANY keyboard with a sampler should IN THEORY be able to do synced audio loops, but the difference is, take a look at any WS that does this... It has a whole graphical section to do exactly what you say you need - make it simple, make it easy! Plus pads to put these loops on, to allow you to 'play' them. They also have pitch and speed independence made simple, and then contemporary loop manipulation tools like slicers and 'stutterers', easy filtering for the loops, you name it.

No matter HOW you slice it ( ), modern arrangers don't have a fraction of the tools that modern WS's do...

Perhaps Roland's SEEM easy to use because they don't have some of these modern tools (no sampler, for instance), but I have to agree that some of the things they DO have in common with other arrangers, they somehow do manage to make them much more intuitive and easy to do...

Well no Theory about it re the Korg - it DOES slice 'n dice, and it does have a graphical interface for Sample editing AND Pads to play the loops, (synched into the Tempo of the SMF you're playing) but I take your point, most other arrangers seem to lack this....and more.

I would dearly love to use a WS, but the lack of (true) styles (and fills, Intros & Endings) prohibits this.

Not that I use a hell of a lot of Arranger playing, but for some gigs (10% out of 100%) and for a songwriting jumping off point (as a quick "sketch pad" and even a basic template) I really need this "Arranger-only" Function.

Tell me Diki (or anyone) why don't WS('s) have Arpeggiators with, say, various "Edit levels", your basic WS Arpeggiator, and then a more complex (Arranger-like) level that includes Fills/Intros etc - the Manufacturer can call this "Style Emulator" anything they want so as not to scare off any potential WS customers.

I'm serious - some one tell me why they don't do SOMETHING like that????

Sheer paranoia at the possible connection to the word 'arranger', in all probability...

You've seen how many manufacturers like to leave off the word 'Arranger' from the front panel, heck, even my G70 is a 'Music Workstation' according to the marketing wienies at Roland It appears it is the kiss of death to any WS sales, arrangers being viewed by the young as schlager and schmaltz machines...

In fairness, as well, the whole 'loop' mentality doesn't really think in terms like 'Fill' and 'Intro', simply in separate 'chunks' of music that you trigger as needed. The Yamaha MotifXS, for instance, has nearly everything you would need to actually use it as an arranger (but without all the user friendly things like lyrics and Music Finders, etc.), but the way they control the loops is MUCH more DJ-like than arranger-like. No conditional loops (like a fill that automatically goes to a Variation or an Intro), but you CAN do almost everything by hand.

I guess that is the major paradigm shift between arranger playing and DJ-ing... arrangers make the transitions for you, DJ-ing is where you primarily PLAY the loops, rather than the music they contain.

Sooner or later, arrangers WILL have to incorporate loop tools and arpeggiators, or nobody left alive will use them, much but I am not really expecting it. Seems all too obvious that arranger makers are only TOO happy to let R&D stagnate, and keep the two types of keyboard separate... double their profits! If you need an arranger AND a loop/arpeggiator keyboard, you have to buy TWO keyboards. Money makes the world go round...

Nice post about NAMM, but how many times can manufacturers re-invent the wheel? the wheel in my opinion would be the piano? why do they make a different model piano every year? and musicians buy them? and by the way this is the general Arranger Keyboard Forum not the General Keyboard? I guess any info on keyboards would be welcome?

[This message has been edited by vangelis (edited 01-27-2010).]