Well my drum machine met it's nemesis, a tall gin tonic and now it is dead. It has served me well after six years on the road. So now I'm looking to replace it. I was thinking that instead of getting the same one, maybe there is something on the market now that has more features.

What I need is:
Compact light weight
good live feeling drums
easy to operate in a live situation
easy to organize beats by song names
At least 2 variations per beat

What would be great to get is:
Bass lines following my piano playing
Set lists
midi and/or mp3 playback

Is there anything out there that fits? Either an arranger module or drum machine?

DocZ

Ahh death by G&T, so its not just human drummers that meet their demise through alcohol!

Because you need some backing in the form of a bass line that follows your playing it cuts down the choice a fair bit as most have pre-programmed chord progressions and bass lines.

I have spent a lot of time with live drummers and its hard to swallow Midi drum kits after that; a B3 just doesn't sound right with a standard Midi drum machine, but Ketron stuff has a nice live feel to them and amplify up very well. The Midjay+ is a great little unit that plays SD5 styles, MP3, Midi & Wav files but lacks quick access buttons to the styles in real time (have to use a data wheel). The SD3 (module version of the SD5) has the styles in categories, but also is a full blown arranger and does not play mp3 files. So they are probably not what your after.

Does anyone remember a drum machine called a 'Powerhouse'? It was an 8 track player with a tape library of live drum loops with 4 stereo variations for each.

Sorry I have not been much help!

TWD

edit: http://matrixsynth.blogspot.com/2006/10/scottish-made-powerhouse-drum-machine.html

thats the powerhouse! useless for you, but my Dad still has one somewhere.

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 01-25-2010).]

[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 01-25-2010).]

You might check out the Roland DR-880 demos. Pretty good, IMO. Mind you, no bass following, but it's got guitar and bass amp sims in there

Got a pretty decent live feel to it, I thought.

Your options with an arranger module these days are pretty much Ketron and Ketron... Mind you, a nice PSR probably weighs not too much more than the Ketron (7kg to 11kg). I know it's not what you want, but arranger modules are pretty much a thing of the past. If you want modern features at an affordable price point, you may have to go to a keyboard...

Thanks for the reply. The drum machine that met it's demise was a Boss DR-3, it had great sounding drums and percussion. It also had bass sounds that were good, but they were pre-programmed and there was no real way of controlling them. I had copied the styles I liked to the user section, and I had them renamed for song names, it worked great in a live situation. I did check out the DR-880, it sounds good, and you can program songs with the ez compose feature, but you are tied down to the structure you program. You can't do an extra chorus if the crowd is into the song, or you can't stop the song one verse early because the crowd didn't take it, or just switch songs while playing.

What would be cool was if the machine could pick up the two or three lowest played note played via midi, and use a pre-programmed pattern to modulate them. Because you don't need full blown chord recognition just for bass I thought maybe there was something that could do this. But I'll guess I'll just get a new DR-3 or something similar with a larger user capacity.

Doc-Z

I think the DR-880 and maybe the 660 too, they both have the ability to link several patterns, and basically do the arranger-like Variations and Fills thing with a footswitch. So instead of pre-programming the entire song, you just kick the patterns as you see fit... Just like an arranger

I definitely think that Roland, and any drum machine manufacturer, really, have missed the ball by not really porting over the arranger's system... four patterns, six or so fills to link them, and an Intro and Ending or two. For the B3 player, or anyone kicking LH bass, it would be a great product.

Oh well...

I have a DR-660 that has been hardly used. Make me an offer.

Bernie

Your absolutely on the money Diki. If your using vintage or acoustic keys, you need something with more than a two bar midi pattern and a fill in, its just not inspiring.

TWD

I looked at that DR-660 and the DR-670, what puts me off is that they seem to be organized in a different way than the DR-3, and no backlight on the LCD really makes it hard to use live in a dark pub with 1000 screaming drunken maniacs But thanks for offering!

I checked out the new Alesis SR-18, it is cool for having guitar effects and the ability to loop song sections, and a big lcd display is a big plus, big downside is that it only has room for 100 songs. It also has some kind of bass functionality, but no arranger capabilities. If only I could hack that one and expand the memory so that it can hold 300 - 400 songs I would be home free

Maybe there is a software route? For the price of these things I could probably get a small Atom based PC. I've tried groove agent, that didn't cut it - at least not live, but maybe something that could loop sections of a midi file or something...

When it comes to bass, it is not that important, I did try the LH bass thing a couple of times, it just isn't for me. I know some guys can get it to sound real good, but when I do it I sound like a bassplayer on speed, and a one-armed pianoman....

I'll guess I'll get a new DR-3, or the SR-18
I don't really feel like spending 900$ on a DR-880, it is over six years since it came to the market - seems a bit overpriced even though it is top of the line.

Thanks for the advice guys.
DocZ

Another one worth looking at it is the Alesis SR18.
It's a modern remake of the classic Sr16 which pretty much owned the drum machine market outright once upon a time. By far the most popular machine ever. The original was a little temperamental but the new SR18 is supposed to be nothing short of flawless.
http://www.alesis.com/sr18

Regards
James

Well, several of your desires rule out any drum machine mentioned, and others that weren't mentioned.

If you want at least two variations, MIDI playback and something to create automatic bass lines to what you play, then some form of arranger (module) is the answer. Someone did mention the Ketron Midjay and that would work, albeit fairly expensive.

I still have a Generalmusic WK2MA MIDI Arranger Module that I would sell. It has four intros, variations and endings per style, tap tempo, internal hard drive and floppy drive, 4 part vocal harmonizer, etc. It can function as a simple drum machine or drum and bass accompaniment, or full blown accompaniment. Or you can let it play SMF's that you can play along with. There is also an S-Video output that can display SMF's lyrics on an external TV or LCD monitor. This would really fill all of your requests.

Alesis SR-18 HANDS DOWN! If you're looking to replace your DR-3 (nice drum machine by the way.., I used to own one), and outside of buying a new DR-3.., the Alesis SR-18 is the way to go (especially when looking at cost). Boss makes some nice drum machines but DAMN! are they expensive. Even dealers have complaints about Boss gear at "Cost".., unless Boss has recently dropped their prices to dealers.

As James said the SR-16 is probably one of the best selling Drum Machines of all time. Alesis has been selling that unit for YEARS and it's one of their big success products. You could probably find a used SR-16 for a good price too. I can't even begin to count the number of people I know who still own one or have owned one over the yearss



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-25-2010).]

That WK thingy how big is it? Will it let me play piano like I normally would play piano? Or do I have to alter my playing to suit the arranger? I tried the "Full Keyboard" mode on both Roland G series, Tyros 1 and my PSR-3000 the Rolands did the best job, but none of them could do it properly, I really had to limit myself in order to keep the digital band leader from getting carried away into experimental modern jazz music Which may offcourse say more about my piano playing than the hardware - but still... I used to own a General Music CD2 - I really liked that keyboard.

The Midjay is the most expensive alternative, this will take three gigs to pay off so if I chose that one it better be some naked girls included in the package... What I fear about that unit is that it may be so feature rich that it will be a major pain in the a** to sort out. The biggest important feature I need is flexibility, I have to be able to control the unit by playing like I always do, I have to able to let the crowds mood control if a song is longer or shorter than the original. I none of this was important, I would just load up an MP3 player with backing tracks and go to town. Maybe I'll do that? Is there any mp3 players that will loop a clip? Until you tell it to play the next without any delay between tracks? That would be cool!

I demoed the SR16 before I bought the DR-3, I liked a lot of the features, but lack of LCD backlight, and the way the fill worked put me off, also the sounds of the SR16 is in my opinion a bit "tin canny" or "electronic" compared to the DR-3. I also checked out the DR-550, DR-670 and Zoom series, the DR-3 was so small, light, and was really easy to use. And it had 3 variations per beat. And the way tou built songs and could loop the sections was pretty cool. I did get fooled by the seller on the bass features. I was under the impression you could play bass on it via midi, well you can.. but as soon as you let your fingers off the keyboard, it starts to play the built in bass pattern - not cool. But the best thing about the DR-3 is that it is built like a tank. This was not the first pint or G&T it has consumed in it's years. I think it died of liver failure....

But that SR18 sounds really cool and I like that big LCD display....

hm... I'm torned between old and familiar, and new and exciting....

DocZ



[This message has been edited by doc-z (edited 01-25-2010).]

Im not sure what youre using it with, but this works well for me: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/108105-REG/Alesis_SR16_SR_16_16_Bit.html

I also have this roland but it might be overkill for what u need: http://drums-percussion.musiciansfriend....ELAID=284727430

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 01-25-2010).]

The DR-3 is a very nice drum machine. My main gripe with the unit is the pads. IMO they're not very good and too small. The design and texture of the pads is just all wrong. Who on the design team thought it was a good idea to put a curve on the pads is insane.., plus they're very slick due to the paint and material the pads are made of.

What exactly do you mean about the Bass feature? When I had my DR-3 (It's been a while).., I always used a midi keyboard for recording my patterns. I was able to input bass directly from the keys. If you were having trouble with the the preset bass riff playing once you lifted your hands off the keys.., why not just copy the preset pattern to a user location and then delete the bass track....

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-25-2010).]

I'm using it with whatever crappy digital piano is present at the bar/pub that I play. It is basically a tool to keep the crowd pumping, which in turn keeps the beer taps flowing. It doesn't have to be studio quality sounds on it, it just has to sound "live". And yes, none of these tin cans can compete with a real flesh and blood drummer, but a real life drummer costs money, is grumpy, usually has anger management issues and tends to drive clunker cars that break down on the way to gigs. So a drum machine that is a true drummer at least in "spirit" would work

What I like about the DR-3 is the way it uses velocity and trigger switching to get a humanized feel. The SR16 will get a bit thin "machine gun" sounding when doing a 16/32nd sections. But that is probably due to sample rom limitations, otherwise it is a good machine.

DocZ

I say just replace that DR-3 with another one if the new Alesis SR-18 isn't to your liking. Have you looked at the Zoom RT-223 as well? The RT-223 is essentially Zoom's competitor to the DR-3, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper. When I bought my DR-3 it was when the price was only $179. Boss jacked that puppy up now and it's going for around $220.

about the bass part, obviously I am not smart enough to realise you could delete the bass part... I wish I knew that.

I think I will give that SR18 a go, the DR-3 is familiar and safe, but I can't help wonder if there is something more out there. It is kind of like women, just that the drum machine will not gut you like a pig for testing out the competition

DocZ

Unfortunately, nobody MAKES what you want, doc-z. Except Ketron. And those are older technology. No Audya module. No SA, no guitar modes, expensive, limited style library...

You need to consider either getting a proper arranger (you can always MIDI in a wood 88 if you have to play one of those) and do what you want with that. A much older, used module is going to frustrate you when you hear how much BETTER modern arrangers all sound (even the MOTL ones). Is bringing one more lightweight keyboard to a gig THAT much of a burden, especially how little more than the module some of them weigh?

You want live sounding drums, maybe a used E50 might fit the bill, or a new Korg PA700. Both of those can be had for less than a new Ketron module. If not, I'd still take a close look at that DR-880. I tried the Alesis SR-18 (had an SR-16 since they came out), and wasn't really that impressed...

I know that money is always a consideration (as it should be) but seems to me a Korg PA588 would solve both your drum and "crappy digital piano" situation in one fell swoop. Bite the bullet, man. You can thank me later.



chas

Oh, and doc.. There really isn't ANYTHING that can follow full, normal piano playing perfectly. So much is implied that no machine will ever figure out exactly what you WANT out of all the passing notes, runs, grace notes, clams ( ) and other assorted pianistic things.

Best they manage is a mode where the chord won't change until you hold down more than two notes, so you can play with the sustain pedal down and it won't change, but actually PLAY three notes or more simultaneously and then it goes to the new chord. Add in the mode where it knows what bass note you are playing, and you can get somewhat close to regular piano playing, but it is ALWAYS going to involve some sort of adjustment of technique to work right...

I can't help but say that I'm buying back a lot of the same equipment I sold a few years ago. There's something missing, for me, in many of today's newer items. I can't put my finger on it, but maybe it's a melding of technology and usefullness.

Don't throw the idea of another DR-3 out the window until you actually find something you like better.

HERE are the specs for the WK2HD MIDI Arranger. Yes, there is a full keyboard mode that will allow you to play in a normal piano type of way and the accompaniment will keep up. Of course that last statement depends on just what your normal way of piano playing is. For the most part, I have never had a problem with it. You do have to keep in mind that you are working with another musician so to speak, but that is really no big deal.

Just the drum machine side alone, with its 4 each of intros, variations and endings and tap tempo makes the WK2HD MIDI Arranger a nice module. The fact that it is a full arranger with internal hard drive and vocal harmonizer is icing on the cake.

I forgot to make a comment on the DR-3. I had one for a while but found it very annoying in the way it handles fills. To explain, if the pattern currently playing is a 4 bar pattern, and you press a fill-in button anywhere within the pattern, the fill doesn't start until the pattern has completed all of its bars, and then the fill-in will play it's entire length which almost always threw the drums out of sync by at least one bar. Maybe there is a way to change this but I couldn't find it.

On the WK2HD-MA, and many other arranger instruments, a fill will occur as soon as the fill button is pressed and will only play as much of the fill as needed as to not throw things off by a bar or more. "I hope that makes sense".

Just d'loaded the DR-880 manual... I completely withdraw my recommendation of it. Sure, it SOUNDS cool, but there's no on the fly kicking of fills. I must have been thinking of something else.

Sorry.

You can do "on-the-fly" kicking of fills on the DR 880 if you do some programming via the EZ Compose feature.