It’s seems to me (maybe I’m wrong) that arranger keyboards are much more popular overseas than in the USA. For example, the Tyros 3 has been out for over a year I haven’t any in the stores here in Texas- and I’ve gone to just about every Guitar Center from Laredo to Dallas. I’ve never seen any Korg or Roland arrangers around here either. Ketrons- no where…. I go down to Mexico City a few times a year where I’ve have spotted Rolands and Korgs arrangers in stores. I have heard that in the UK they have all sorts of arranger keyboard clubs, clinics, courses, contests… So why does the arranger keyboard have a very limited appeal in the USA?

it has little appeal in USA, because they are nowhere to be seen here,

out of sight, out of mind ...

I'm not saying this to start an argument or stir up any ill feelings, but only because I really believe it. I think it's because very few serious musicians are interested in them. Why this is so, I can only speculate......but I won't.

chas

PS: Please note that I said VERY FEW. Obviously there are some very fine musicians here on SZ but I think that within the community of musicians, they are a small minority. JMO.

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 01-26-2010).]

It does well here in Atlantic Canada (and apparently, Quebec too...I have a buddy who works there) but we do a lot of information clinics, as well as demos, and follow-up clinics for clients....that may be in our favor.

Most people are unaware of how sophisticated the arranger has become.

Ian

Because of our wealth,mobility, gas , used car prices - the best income/instrument price ratio compared to the rest of the world.(don't quote me on this by comparing north west euro countries with 5- 10 mil people for the whole country, they don't count).Compare US to UK, Ger, Mxco, China, India,Japan, France,Russia and all the countries with more than say 25 mil).

(US) promotes real band music ( because we can still afford it) than OMB music.
(not talikg about button pressing Rap).


Arranger - $ appeal for the player

Guitar/Drums (and to a lesser extent a nord like synth KB without speakers) - Sex appleal for the playa

and you kwow what a college kid would prefer.

21 yr old kid in US can get a 1500$ M3/ Motif Xs, load it in to his $2500 used Civic, drive 10 miles, play with his 4 piece band, record , do the gig in a local club.He tries to make it , if he can't he quits, nothing lost.


Do that in other parts of the world.

2000$ keyboard, 7000$ for a working used so so car,pay $ 9 for a gallon of gas, load your gear to your apartment where you live with your parents, find a club that accepts 4 or 5 piece live band music....,


But not all 21 yr old in other countries may not be able to spend, even if they can mobilty/transportation is not as easy as in US to promote Band music.Other parts ot the world( with some exception of UK and Germany).

This is a typical local musician example -
25 yr old musician with his singer GF buys PA2x pro/T3 goes to the local club to play live.

The best used (2nd hand pro gear ) market in the world is again , the US.

Try Craiglist even London (or local sites), search a pro instrument , do the same thing for NY, LA . You'll see the dif.

Here in US, mostly seniors (who used to be 21 yr olds in the bands) gig with MOTL and TOTL arrangers.


Young musicians in US are not into arrangers because they can still spend time, money and energy for band music.When they get older they'll play in a jazz trio or by a T3 and start OMBing.

1500 Les Paul or 1000$ US strat is no big deal here(a college will buy it if he wants) but outside the US,it is a big deal and they have to do with epiphone or a squier.


Once the economy goes down, there will be less bands and the young in the US will be into arrangers.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 01-26-2010).]

We've had this discussion many times over the years. As a 59 year old store owner I have a different opinion then I'm reading here today.
So many of the stores in the USA are Guitar Center and Sam Ash locations and they are staffed with mostly young musicians who have very weak selling capabililties and don't know how to demonstrate well. They tend to just push a demo button and that's it. At least this is what I see when I go into those type of stores throughout the Los Angeles area. I think that most music stores in other countries probably have better sales people who can properly show the strengths of arrangers.
I also think that there are more former accordian players outside the USA then we have here and the natural transition is to an arranger with chords and bass on the left hand and melody on the right.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

I can tell you about the arranger popularity in Mexico, in my hometown Queretaro, there are many street cafes like in Spain, France, Italy, etc...and I can say that the live entertainment is 55% arrangers/singers and the other 45% guitarist/singers.

When you go to some resorts like Cancun, Acapulco, Ixtapa, La Paz, etc... You will find in larger hotels bands that play all kinds of music, catering to the younger crowd, 20s to 40ish...in other smaller hotels may be some trios, Piano, Bass & Drums or sax/singer.
In the local restaurants is most likely you will find an arranger keyboardist performing there.

I live in Phoenix AZ, and I go every 2-3 months to Los Algodones B.C. Mexico for my prescriptions like many thousands of americans do, and in the main Restaurant "La casa Vieja", you have a young man playing his Korg PA50 and singing. I remind you that the town is tiny, only a few streets, most with Drug stores, Optical, hearing aids, dentist and some art craft stores.

I have many of my friends, Alejandro Vazquez, Rafael Garcia, Jorge Alarcon, Prudencio & Jesusa, Juanito Silva, Mtro. Benitez, etc play keyboard arrangers in my hometown, performing in different places, from Restaurants, Lounges, Hotels besides the wedding, convention events.
The predominant brand arrangers in Mexico, are Yamaha and Korg, strangely, Roland has a small presence in Mexico, I repeat, in the ARRANGER area, I can even say, that Ketron has a stronger third place, Ketron has been only a short time in Mexico(about 8 years), I was the first performer in 1998 to use it when I got my X1 HD, and later the SD1, when I moved back to USA, I sold my 2 Ketrons there, and some other 3 SD1s, and couple X1s where there playing.

The popularity of Ketron in Mexico is due to it's superior real "Latin" styles, the second place is for Korg, then Yamaha in last, I think Roland now has a posible 3th place, most still some errors in orchestration and some musical phrasing.

Some of my friends make their styles with what the Yamaha keyboard tools provide, very LIMITED, NONE of the style designers use the keyboard itself to make the styles.
SO, there you have a picture of the arrangers in Mexico, the Worksations like Motifs, Fantoms, M/Triton, are use mostly in larger bands and studios, and some, popular bands use an arranger and a worksation too.

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mdorantes

Here is what I think happened in the UK. Its probably incorrect and full of erros but here goes....

The strongest market was always the home organist. After import restrictions were lifted Hammond aggressively established a network of social groups called Hammond Organ Societies supported by local tuition schools where people learned to play together. This became the foundation for today's organ clubs. I think the UK was unique in that so many home organs were sold. There were shops on every high street and just about every family had a relative with an organ.

As cheaper and more attractive alternatives became available more organs sold as customers were drawn to the pretty lights, rows of tabs and low price tags; Welson, Howard, Kentucky, Viscount, Gem, Bentley, Gulbranson, Cavendish, Siel, Godwin, Panasonic, Yamaha, Kawai, Farfisa, Elka - Orla, Belton, Lowrey, Bontempi. (I could go on all night). But that was fine, because people would start of on a little organ, maybe a Welson and then after 6 months or a year would part exchange it in for a better model. The same customer would keep changing their instruments whilst they learned, getting the newest model or one with more features.

The 70s were incredible and Organ sales boomed. Then one Christmas in the early 80s, and I remember it very well as my Father managed Fox's Music Shop in Leicester, Yamaha delivered the PSR 1, 2 and 3.

That christmas, instead of people buying the little organs for £399 - £699 and then returning in January to book lessons they were buying little Yamaha keyboards for £149 or less. that in itself wasn't so bad - maybe they would part exchange it for an organ later??

It didn't happen. When people brought an organ, it was a commitment to something; a large piece of furniture that demanded attention. I reckon 90% of Yamaha PSR 1, 2 and 3 models ended up under peoples beds and in the lofts...and they are probably still there or in a landfill.

Yamaha had success afterward and established a series of music schools across the country with their own method, and for a few years the industry carried on like a fat oil tanker with no engines (through sheer momentum) due to the amount of people that were already hooked on the organ. What the industry failed to do was to keep attracting new customers for organs. Panasonic (Technics) and Yamaha became the dominant players Hammond hanging on in their but struggling to keep up with technology due to their commitment to a pure tone. Kawai for a while became very popular and Elka (then later Orla) always managed to keep head above water.

As many of the organ manufacturers disappeared, the bigger companies diversified with Digital Ensemble Pianos which dominated the market in the 90s and in to the 00s, trying to convince the same organ customers that this was they way to go, many customers became frustrated and this is where arranger keyboards came in.

There are still a reasonable number of that generation left...(these are the Tyros customers in the UK). People that are not so much players- and need their registicks and presets labeled by song name, they love to push a style maked 'miller' and instantly play a five part ensemble of Moonlight Serenade with only three fingers on the left and one on the right. They keep them for 12 months until bored of the styles and part exchange them in for the next model. They might buy a Korg or a Ketron and push the buttons for a bit, but inevitably as non players they will end up going back to their safety zone. Roland and Orla still battle on and have their own loyal customers. Hammond went back to their roots and have a nice little corner of the market shared by one or two others (KeyB for instance)
Sadly not many arranger keyboards fall into the hands of performing musicians. Its unlike the European continent where many little bars and restaurants will have a guy in the corner playing his Ketron and singing to a merry audience until the early hours of the morning. In the UK, once people have eaten their meal to the sounds of recorded Piano music they go home and are in bed by 11pm. Whilst the younger ones dance to the pre-recorded music played by a guy with a PA and mp3 player.
But...there is a smaller group of people that still go out at night and entertain - people like you guys on synthzone who put on their 'performance face' with carefully prepared playlists, on screen lyrics and vocal harmonizers. People who take a PA2x or an Audya and really appreciate it as a performance instrument. Some play with arranger modules and accordions, one or two with midi guitars and Midjays. I wish there were more of you!

Most of this is probably rubbish and I have missed huge chunks out (sincer apologies for that), but its just my take and I am going to post it before I think too much about it and start editing! in fact I am going to resist hitting the edit button!

TWD

Personally, I think the arranger slump in the US is mostly due to how bad they do contemporary styles. While in Europe and Latin America, more traditional forms are still very popular, in the States the clubs are dominated by bands that play rock, alternative, and rap/hiphop/R&B. None of which are the traditional arranger's forte.

Few parents would buy a PSR for their kids today and expect them to LIKE it. They want something that can do some Beyoncé, DMX or T-Pain. And that AIN'T the arranger. It's the WS/Groovebox. Europe and Latin America, singalongs are still popular, people like the familiar songs they can sing along with, but ask any kids the words to a traditional song, you get a blank stare. But they know ALL the words to some rap song, or an emo/angst rock tune...

Just look at the Billboard Top 30. I can't think of hardly ONE song that an arranger could do. Now compare that to the Top 30 in say Germany, or Mexico. I guarantee there's a LOT of songs performable on an arranger.

Until arranger manufacturers incorporate some of the features and sounds that make making hiphop and techno as easy as a WS or computer rig, don't expect to see arrangers regain any ground over here...

JMO...

I personally still havent found a Salesperson in any store or a TechSupport from ANY Company that makes Keyboards to outbeat me in knowledge on ANY machine laying on the floor in the store...especially here in SAM ASH where a lot of them are my friends now i usually end up helping customers and the Salepersons listening to me and learning from it...that said...tell me how in the hell a person like that would sell an arranger or any keyboard at all...especially when it comes to arrangers NONE of them has a CLUE even what the machine can do...they are just simply mute.