In my previous post I meant exactly that...

Anyway, the reason to use an arranger is the simplicity of making a niche style(s). Their music has some basic "forms" or "bases" or "paths" and the rest is built ON that. They start with song A rhythm X and maybe 5-7 songs later they change to rhythm Y, depending on what the crowd wants. And so on and so on, until the early morning. They probably wouldn't do that easily in a synth.

It occurs to me - and I might be mistaken, is it possible that arranger keyboards are designed mainly for the European Market and sell in the USA in smaller numbers just because they are available?

The reason I say this is because when I worked for Hammond there seemed to be two very distinctive markets. The XB3, XC3, B3, C3 etc sold far more in the USA than the UK because of the Church and pro market (i mean keyboard players in bands). When we asked for the XE1, the USA were not so interested in it because there is a only a very limited call for that kind of instrument. However in the UK we sold huge ammounts of XE1 that were upgraded to XE2 and even XE200, because it was so succesfull we had a special edition version in burgandy with a full length music rack. I don't believe anything more than an XE1 in a cabinet ever found itself to the USA.

If that is the case, it is very worrying because it means that the larger companies still have the home organist in their sites and rely on those people for sales of arranger keyboards. Every year there are fewer and fewer of those customers. And unless the industry does what Hammond did in the 60s to establish their own market could it be game over?

Whenever a sales department ask the factory for a new product, the question will be asked...How many units will we sell?

Hammond no longer makes ensemble instruments (at least not for Europe), Yamaha no longer openly imports organs into the UK, Panasonic withdrew Technics completely. Roland have not introduced any new TOTL arrangers. That question must have been asked around many tables.

TWD



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 01-27-2010).]

tonewheeldude- I think you have a good point that many of the styles on an arranger seem to be made for the European market. For example, on my Tyors 2 many of the Latin styles sound very European to my ears.

A good Latin arranger is what I really want but I'm still looking... I'm sure there would be a huge market for one.

There would probably be even a bigger demand for an American styles arranger. American music is popular everywhere.

Few comments:

Excellent topic.

1- In the US musician tend to group together in Bands. It can seen all over the place. One of the atraccions of bars and restaurants are "Live Bands". We don't see advertising to "JoeDo playing live".
2- Price. If we look prices for high end arranger and high end WS, the arrangers are always more expensive. Korg M3 ($2200.00), Korg PA800 (2800.00), Korg PA2x (3400.00). Why then if I am going to play in a band I will purchase an arranger? If we look in the "used" market the difference is even bigger.
3- I think that Churches are an important sector in the music market. In the area where I live there are probably 500 churches. Imagine that amount of churches performing music every Sunday. In 99 % of then the music is play in groups (bands, etc) and 99 % of then use WS.
4- Peer pressure. Because they don't know, usually musician tend to look some body playing an Arranger as a weird guy, some body that does no have the skills. Some time they call you instrument as " you Casio type keyboard". Even here in SZ, I have read reviews of arrangers that look "more professional" because X model have no speakers and the "no professional" have then.
5- As Diki say, poor marketing in the stores. Many times, when visiting music stores, I have to volunteer, to show a interested customer what the Arrangers can do, because the sales people don't have a clue.

Montunoman, I don't think there is a single, isolated, reason (silver bullet) why arrangers are less popular in the US than in other areas of the world. And no, I don't think American players are better trained and more skillful (implying that they don't need the 'bonuses' provided by an arranger as much as their non-USA counterparts). Actually, I think the answer is a compilation of most of the reasons listed in the above posts. Most of the posts have valid and logical reasons, and therefore all (of these reasons) probably contributes to this curious situation. That being the case, none of us are wrong or right; we are probably all a little bit right. So many things factor into this; which culture values technology more? Which ones values habit, customs, and tradition? Education, personal (per capita) income, even a country's pub habits, all probably play a role. Someday we'll figure it all out, but we'll all be in heaven by then (well, not all of us).

chas

It’s all down to marketing

Arrangers are designed for Home Players, and are marketed to them. (If you asked a home user what a workstation was, most wouldn’t have a clue, in fact as manufactures put the workstation name on their arrangers, most home users think they are)

WS are designed for Pro Gigging/Studio musicians, and are marketed to them, and this is why most of them don’t have a clue what an arranger is. (Most consider them as toys for young kids in their bedroom)

If you want to change the above, you will have to change the manufactures mind, so as to market them at the other set of users.

WS & Arrangers do cross each other’s lines at times, but in very very small numbers.

BTW: The reason Korg arrangers have more advanced features, is because they do not have a long term home user market history, so they have worked from the WS down, whereas Yamaha has both, and so their arrangers develop bottom up.

Bill

To be honest, firstly, let me say a big shoutout to Squeak who, IMO, has hit the nail squarely on the head. Yes, younger players want some of the classic rhythms and styles, but they are not going to buy a keyboard (of ANY kind, not just arrangers) that is ONLY capable of those. It has to be able to sound contemporary as well as classic, but NO modern arranger does. But the wild success (and prompt assassination by Yamaha) of the DJX showed that, given a product that DID work well for modern music AND was an 'arranger', it was bought in droves by the younger crowd. Apparently, there's no REAL objection by the young to an arranger... just to its' CONTENT (or lack thereof!).

To be honest, I believe the assassination of the DJX was at the behoove of the WS division, who saw the writing on the wall for their difficult to use product if hip sounding arrangers became widely available...

And sorry, guys, but you can't turn back the clock. Our parents' generation's musicians would have probably been ecstatic if rock had never upset THEIR world, and we have to accept that hiphop is as dominant now as rock was in its' heyday. It took a while for keyboard manufacturers to jump on the rock bandwagon, in fact, some disappeared altogether because they WOULDN'T. I can only hope that the arranger doesn't go the same way.

It's not that the arranger COULDN'T be popular in the States. It's just that they are designed and built by Europeans (some backed by Japanese corporations), primarily FOR Europeans. It's no more likely that instruments designed specifically for Americans are likely to be used by Europeans (until it becomes mainstream and they start copying us again! ) than arrangers will sweep the US.

In my area, back in the 80's, the solo MIDI musician/keyboardist was the King for a while. Maybe a decade or so. Howard Jones, Human League, synth pop etc., that was the music on the charts, and the MIDI keyboardist was the player to play it. But now, acoustic guitarists rule the roost. There's probably a dozen or more for every keyboard player (conservatively!). Frankie mentioned the resurgence in ukulele playing (the poor man's - and player's - guitar). Most popular music is hiphop, and that just isn't a solo form of music. Even rapping takes a team, a crew...

So, the solo keyboard player is now primarily an older guy, playing classic tunes, maybe some jazz in a restaurant, maybe even a real piano (or stage piano). But the plethora of solo MIDI musicians has stopped being popular. So, in fairness, I don't think it is just the arranger that suffers in the US. On the whole, I see FAR fewer young keyboard players than there used to be...

It will change again, in a decade or two or three. It always does. Something gets popular, and what does it best gets to be the King. Maybe it'll be keyboards, maybe the accordion makes a comeback, maybe something nobody saw coming.

But, if arrangers want to survive as more than a niche product to an ever diminishing field of players in the US, the manufacturers got to start thinking that, when they make 'ethnic' versions of an arranger, the USA is one of those 'ethnic' areas. Just as you can't sell arrangers in the Middle East without Middle East specific sounds, styles and features, just as you can't sell arrangers in Latin America without Latin styles and sounds, you CAN'T sell arrangers in the US in any significant numbers until they do AMERICAN music.

Which, I'm afraid to say (as much as some of us would like to pretend otherwise) is HIPHOP

Diki.., I've been talking about Yammies decision to cut the DJX line for years now It was a VERY big seller for them. In fact it was TOO BIG of a seller.

I remember talking to someone associated with Yamaha years ago who "hinted" that the DJX (the original) hit much harder than they expected, and that through marketing research they found not only the younger crowd leaning on it.., but the pros were snapping them up too because they were just so darn cheap, and sounded like no other arranger on the market. The old blue had a ribbon controller, control knobs, DJ like features for mixing the styles by using the lower end of the keys to mute and solo style parts.., and much more. Yamaha had a HUGE winner in that model.

Yammies move to the DJX-II was a clear indicator that they wanted to "move" the targeted group on the line (or at least scare another off).

Arrangers CAN without a doubt be popular here in the USA. It's not just the consumers that have to change, but the keyboard makers have to stop being so closed minded on the issue.

What happens when you allow the arranger divison and workstation division to play on the same playground....??? Well.., you get the Korg PA series! Korg is even in a good position here to change the market. Could you imagine how HUGE the sales on the PA series would be if they added special style sections for modern music? They already have great synth engines with tons of editing, good sequencers, ect. The PA series is already 90% there.

If any company is in the best position to do it..., I would say Korg's the first choice, then Roland. Yammies arrangers (even pro models) don't currently have the editing power of Korg.., and neither does Roland, but they already have a good start with the GW-8 line.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-28-2010).]

Editing sounds is the least of it. Modern hiphop and techno musics revolve around arpeggiators. And they are VERY different to styles. Styles try to analyze what you play. Arpeggiators just play whatever you play, and don't mess with the notes.

Plus, the Korg PA series is based on a ten year old (or older) set of samples. Sure, it's a Triton, to a certain extent, but even Korg have moved on. How about a PA with an M3 engine? Karma, modern hiphop drums, that sort of thing...

That would wake up the US market to arrangers! DJX was a great product. Amnesia is a terrible thing for a company to have...

both the Korg PA2x and the Korg M3 use the EDS sound engine.

Not that the sound engine matters all that much for contemporary hip hop that still relies heavily on samples .Anyway pretty much any sound used in contemporary hip hop or dance music today can be emulated or created using technology designed 5 years ago. its all to do with the skill of the sound designer and less to do with the technology used to make the sound. It does not take much to fool the ear to create the same sound using different techniques.

sorry if i am off topic