!

[This message has been edited by Mystic Jammer (edited 02-13-2010).]

That's kind of cool, I've heard many of the factory Karma demos before, but I wonder if you are taking into account the overall genre bias that Karma's content tends to have..? On the whole, I am not sure I would like to go out and gig with a Karma based keyboard without a TON of preparation, probably a LOT more than I would need to get either an arranger together, or the prep time to do the job with SMF's.

What Karma does is exceeding cool, but I just have always felt it is set up much more for techno and electronica fans than general gigging guys. While there are a FEW jazz GE's, it's hardly the main thrust of the content. And even fewer rock, R&B (old school!), disco, alt rock, etc.. You know, the things we often get asked to play.

Perhaps you are lucky enough to do a lot of Muse, or the more modern electronica bands, but I'm afraid that, for probably the large majority of arranger users, Karma isn't really set up for our type of playing styles...

Its a totally wrong statement and i am not saying this on my opinion, i am saying it
based on strong facts since i have seen people actually gig with KARMA and use it as an
Arranger, KARMA can totally do YOUR kind of music same as an arranger except with a lot more...
the only disadvantage would be few less Arranger functions which you can get around without.
As far as simplicity goes i know both WAYs of working by heart, KARMA seems easier and tends
less time preparation then an arranger...plus bear in mind the advantages of a Workstation over an
Arranger. If something is not clear feel free, i can write about KARMA for days. And already knowing
your response to this i will be a little preemptive, i know you gonna start talking about Chords, and
Scene changes and this and that, trust me, it is exactly like on an Arranger just a little better. Chords
and NTT works perfect, changing things has a WAYYY better CUE functions then on any existing
Arranger to date...plus nevermind the extra features which you can dream only on an Arranger.
Yes, less tracks but not really, you have 5 tracks per STYLE*KARMA, 1 DrumTrack and 4 KARMA.
and another 11 for Solo...and yes...9 FX processors...

I'd be curious to hear what is being played live on Karma. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT putting Karma down - I've used a bit in its' early form, was VERY interested for a while that there was a software version that ran on my old Mac, but it never got ported to OSX (AFAIK), and have spent quite a bit of time in my local store playing an M3.

The thing is, I just never found much in the M3's presets that I thought 'I can go gig with this' other than the odd preset. I need dozens upon dozens of styles to not sound repetitive (I might do a dozen folk/rock tunes, and wouldn't want the same style for all of them!), and, I'm sorry, but I never found enough in the M3's presets that wouldn't necessitate using one GE a LOT...

As with most other things that try to better the arranger, all I ever want to hear and see is someone actually doing it... Not just 'one off' factory demos, but people really using Karma to gig with, playing music that I (and my audiences) can relate to. I'd LOVE to see some links, perhaps some of your OWN music on Karma, to get a better feel for what you are trying to say. Perhaps I'm a little dense, but I am very much a 'show me' not a 'tell me' kind of guy.

I am very open to being shown to be wrong, but, as always, unwilling to be simply TOLD...

Unlike the MS, Karma IS something I HAVE had an opportunity to play with. So, if someone says that something can be done that I couldn't figure out for myself in the store, I would REALLY like to see it in action.

Yes I would also like to hear or see some demo's. Because if this is all true my next update will be a M3. I also thought that Karma is the best for techno and trance music.

I think Karma is an awesoem tool for people that want to create their own music and perform with it..

For people that Perform in a OMB arrangers and styles are way more suited.

Also for people starting out with keyboards Karma will be overwhelming.

But for pro's KARMA is a true tool of inspiration en ingenuity. It challenges their creativity.


To replace an arranger, there should be atleast 200 GE's to mimic the basic music styles, and a huge community to program even more.

Personally I think that KARMA would be a great addition to any TOTL arranger, but not a replacement, only an extra thing to add more indepth tracks to the styles..

That's probably it's best use.

I also think it would be great for video soundtracks.

Ian

Karma really is the next evolution as it gives you a freedom that you don't get from Styles. KARMA almost gives you that fully Sequneced sound in a live situation that constantly adapts to what you play. The actual notes you play and how long you hold them are all part of how KARMA generates different elements in real-time. Unlike a Style which is a locked patteren.

Here me playing straight piano for example. http://www.youtube.com/irishacts#p/u/6/gGwH7E_fn6c

You can see when I turn on KARMA. As I said, it really is the next evolution, but for now I think it's too much for arranger users as it requires an entire change of attitude and approach.

Regards
James

Diki, i dont mean no disrespect but understand what i am saying you need the have the
KARMAknowledge i have, then it will be easier, KARMA addopts to you, not you to it.
If i record something for you thats what YOU use and play you will think its edited and i
also dont have any you tube recording of someone live so you win both ways.
But as James said, yes, it is the only thing of Arranger Evolution next, nothing else.

And watching James play Piano here with an Electronic Combi, it can do the same with
a Style that you would use but a lot more. You also get 8 VARS/FILLS or whatever you
program them to be thats how they would act. Stephen promised new update where a
scene will be programmed to act as a FILL IN on an arranger which already exist in the
KARMA OL version but not on M3 yet. Cueing on how to and where to go after changing
scene its already probably better then on an Arranger and same with Chord changing.
KARMA is not only BEATS, it can generate things for your Solo too, like Guitars or Wind
instruments...many people think KARMA only does beats and thats it...no, it can controll
your Solo playing, it can controll the FX processors, it can give you LOWER PAD and many
more things you cant even imagine...i just bought a camera, if i have time i will record
some video of some popular song that you will play, i will create the GEs too and then
you would probably see and better understand the concept of KARMA. Online and PRO
done video demonstrations cannot really give you a full concept since they are made to
actually let you know what they want you to know, its different from a users point of
view, something used on a daily basis, not recorded in a Video Studio somewhere.

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 02-04-2010).]

We will see what the future brings us. Maby Korg will put it in their new arrangers maby not. And I agree at the moment it would be a great addition to any keyboard not a replacement.

Next PAX3 with Karma....

Somehow i get the feeling that Korg is done with Karma, Kay is currently not doing any work at all for Korg (According too his website), while certainly The M4 and PA3X (next generation KORGS) must be in development for a long time now...

But then every company can buy KArma and add it to their keyboards...

IF they can afford the licensing, and IF their CPU is powerful enough to run what they already are doing AND the Karma overhead...

But I agree that Karma is a great ADDITION to the 'arranger way', but not a great substitution for it, unless one only does what it does well (and invests a LONG time making new GE's for music it doesn't as yet address well). It seems that many are looking for something different, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater strikes me as counter-productive. We need things like Karma, VSTi players etc. in
ADDITION to what we currently have, not a complete substitute. There's a reason arrangers are so popular, and few of these 'substitutes' acknowledge that there is something that works just about perfectly with the arranger system. Yes, it's great to have something AS WELL, but it's obvious (at least to me) that nothing else does the same thing and ADDS their 'thing' yet...

One can only hope, though...

I agree..

They need to add KARMA in the same way they added Sequencers long ago to arrangers..and not only add it, bit also integrate it with the arranger part, but certainly not replace it..

The other big missing part on Keyboards these days is VSTi's, they should not replace the sound engine of a keyboard but be added as an extra feauture.

I personally would create an interface on the keyboard that controlls the VStís running on a sepperate computer. with a gigabit Ethernet connection to transport controll signals to PC and music/sound data/tracks back to the keyboard. Or route the local sounds through the vsti's processing and effects.
This way they don't have to build a very expensive computer intoo the keyboard, but it still allows people to controll and select their vsti's. Giving people that want this feauture the best of 2 worlds...
Many people in the arranger world wouldn't need it tough, so they could decide to sell it as a software expansion, and make extra money from it to repay for the development costs, while keeping the price of the TOTL arranger a bit lower.

Starting to sound a lot like a Mediastation.



chas

Somehow i get the feeling that you missed a point or two.....

Not everything that incorporates both VSt's and styles is like a mediastation...

Its much more like the approach of Wersi, but then with an intuitive interface and no VSTí limitations, and an added KARMA engine offcourse.
Or even better, an Audya/tyros3/PA2X and an Openlabs D-beat integrated in one machine

Point is, the arranger and basic sound engine needs to be on par with the current Arrangers, and thats exactly where Mediastations weak spot is... Their giga sounds are not spectacular, and there is no huge library of top quallity styles. But then this has allready been stated many times before and Lionstracs is now wisely aiming at a different (non arranger) market.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 02-05-2010).]

I have yet to hear anything from a Karma driven product that sounded like music a human being would make. Music driven by complex algorithms that don’t actually rely upon established musical phrases and timing just doesn’t get my juices flowing at all. Part of the beauty in an arranger is that you always know the changes and progressions and "feel" of the music before hand and they will be natural and predictable even when the style variations add that Variable element, the music still follows licks and passages and timing suitable for the genre of music. I have not heard a Karma driven funk style or jazz style or blues style yet that actualy sounded like a funk, jazz or blues session player was playing. With the multitude of styles available both free and commercial at very affordable prices (like free) even if you get bored with a style you can get 12 more very easily. I am open to persuasion but like so many musical ideas that are driven by technological advance, the potential hardly ever materialises into something musically better than what has already been done.Mr Kay has gone to great lengths to distance the Karma function from arranger type keyboards. I suspect that is more to do with the fact of the limitations of the technology in terms of generating genuine variability that is not just interestingly musical but authentic and human and beautiful.

Obviously if Sharp or Nedim have some examples of this i am not set in my thinking. Its just that noone to my knowledge has.

[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 02-05-2010).]

I have now Korg M3-76 and Roland G-70 (and many other arrangers before: Roland VA-76, Yamaha PSR9000 etc.).

I turned on my G-70 a couple of times past 2 years. I use Korg M3-73 every day all this time.

I am not prefer trance or hip-hop. I like jazz and rock.

One thing that I miss at Korg M3-73 and have in Roland G-70 is Bossa-Nova (but there is several sambas). This is not technical fault, this is problem of absence of factory Bossa-Nova style ("combo") and my laziness to program it or to find it somewhere in internet.

!

[This message has been edited by Mystic Jammer (edited 02-13-2010).]

Any chance of hearing how well you are doing?

I must confess, I'm with spalding on this one... Yes, Karma is always doing something a bit different, but most of the styles (whoops! Sorry. GE's ) don't tend to fool me that REAL players are playing. They definiytely make me feel I am not being overwhelmed with repetition, but that variety doesn't come ON TOP of what would be expected if a REAL guitarist, a REAL horn player, a REAL bass player would do.

The 'rules' for genuine guitar playing are FAR more complex than any simple (or not so simple) conditionally random algorithm. So much so that some arrangers are now responding by 'cheating' and using actual recordings of guitarists....

Drums strike me as perhaps simple enough to get away with Karma's randomness (but I bet a drummer would disagree with me!), but I think spalding hit the nail on the head. It's interesting, it HAS variety, but at the cost of really correct idiomatic playing. Most of the music that arranger players in general play is based around REAL players, form the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's, before MTV made it impossible for ugly but talented players to get a deal And the skill of those players seems outside the range of what Karma can do.

But, as I said, I am always VERY interested in HEARING real users prove me misguided. Got some live Karma jazz, or rock, for us to hear what you are telling us?

!

[This message has been edited by Mystic Jammer (edited 02-13-2010).]

I think that an optimal arranger would be one with styles as we know it and with Karma that would provide some variation and "improvisation" of some of the style tracks in real time. That way, we do not lose the huge and often very worthwhile efforts that companies have invested in the styles that are musically interesting. But we also gain a way to provide variation of some of the tracks in the style so they do not repeat. In short: the style provides the basis that is varied by Karma. Can this be done?

As i said...

This can be done, as quote from the creator of KARMA Steven Kay. But Korg has not shown any interest yet intoo adding Karma to an arranger in this way according to him.

He currently also has no intentions of adding Full arranger style integration intoo KARMA (the other way around), which also can be done, but then Karma could be named just another type of arranger and thats something he wants to prevent.

But your point is taken, as i said exactly the same before in other words, we fully agree on this, and now its up to KORG to add this to their next generation of arranger(Which also should have audio drums and tracks) that way we get close to perfection.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 02-09-2010).]

!

[This message has been edited by Mystic Jammer (edited 02-13-2010).]

MJ, I'm taking into consideration that u r a beginner and don't phrase in the beat. nevertheless, i fail to hear what the karma is doing. where is the variety in the background? seems pretty repetitious, and very boring.


------------------
Miami Mo

oh and i didn't hear anything in James" rendition with the piano controller either
that was at all interesting, and he is an accomplished pianist.what am i missing?

------------------
Miami Mo

Mystic Jammer...this is rather plain, and I hope not representative of Karma.

It reminds me a bit of Yamaha's Ethereal Movie Ballad, a free play style which sounds far better and interesting to my ears.

Perhaps if Karma was added to a style, it would have more aural impact...does the M3 have styles?

Ian

!

[This message has been edited by Mystic Jammer (edited 02-13-2010).]

the only example of Karma being actually used was the last example. The rest were all sequenced songs. Frank McCombe is just an awesome player and producer !

I am not convinced that Karma is ready to be used in arranger play for conventional music . I.E Music that doesnt sound like a computer made it.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 02-11-2010).]

No it's not and it's why i said FUTURE and not present so maybe you gave me your view of the future and stop telling it's not ready as it's evident that it's not, there's not even an arranger that have that function, only WS!!!

so again it IS or can be the future of arranger as i'm sure things won't stay as static as they are now, we need dynamic stuff like Karma but adapted to the arranger world....

All that said with a nice smile as it's so easy to misinterpret emotion on a forum

Have a nice day everyone
MJ

Problem with Karma is that its much more complicated to use/program then an arpeggiator or Arranger. While the demo's sound great and people like Stephen Kay and Jordan Rudes made some great performaces on the KARMA, its not yet usable for all and everyone with less musicall knowledge.

Next to that the musicall styles most arranger players use are based on static patterns, Waltzes Foxtrots and Polka's don't have much use for random patterns. Maybe one track with a little randomness to make your music more lively..

But many modern and Jazzy music styles have much more use for this randomness, people that love to improvise will greatly appreciate Karma, more basic musicians that just like to play/copy the orriginall music will not have that much use for it.

I can see many good things about Karma, but i am currently wondering if KARMA gets time enough to be further developed for Korg, Kay is currently doing a huge project to implement KARMA on Openlabs and is allready 9 months overdue.

Korg may even choose to step back to an ordinairy Arpeggiator with their next top model. Opinions over the success of Karma diferentiate from person to person. I really like the possibilities of KARMA but do performing musicians of all kinds and studio's have much use for KARMA.

Dude, please take this as constructive criticism and not as a malicious post. First, I'm only posting this because it sounds like, from your post, that you think this is a 'passable' performance. Trust me, it is not. The biggest and most obvious problem is the rhythm. Advice - better to hit a 'clunker' in the right place than to hit the correct chord in the wrong place. For one thing, you would never be able to play with anybody in the world. It is questionable (in my mind) whether musicality (rhythm, pitch, taste - knowing whether or not something sounds good) can even be learned. I know a few people who have none of the above but still love music. I think that's great, but realistically, they will never become even mediocre musicians. The lucky ones learn that early on. For instance, most kindergartners can sing simple songs both in tune and rhythmically correct. If you can't do that by the time you've reached adulthood, chances are, music is not for you (other than to enjoy at some level other than actually playing it).

One of the 'problems' with today's synths and workstations (and arrangers) is that they are capable of incredibly pretty sounds. Throw in automatic arpeggiators, 'Karma', styles, etc., and they can convince some very unmusical people that they have musical talent or at the very least, are capable of making beautiful music. In the early days of computers, there was a saying, "garbage in, garbage out". That also applies to today's wonder machines known as Workstations and Arrangers.

Here is what I would suggest. Give yourself another year??? and then re-access your progress - or better yet, have someone you trust not to feed you bulls--t, do it for you. If you don't like what they have to say, get another neutral but honest opinion. If it turns out that you're in that unlucky 1% than can't carry a tune or keep a beat, then take the money you were going to spend on the next 'latest, greatest' workstation, combined with the money from the sale of your M3, and treat yourself (or your spouse, if applicable) to something else you want (get a pilot's license - aviation is a great, if expensive, hobby).

I hope you don't find this post too hurtful as it was not intended that way, but sometimes it's in the best interest of an individual for someone to step up and inject a bit of honesty into a situation. I apologize in advance if this post offended you. It's intent was to make you aware of something you may not have been aware of.

chas

I hear you Bachus but its the randomness of Karma that makes it impractical for arranger play and most conventional music. No matter what mathmatical equations and parameters and rules concerning the range of notes , the velocity the sustain the tempo etc that all go into making a simple piece of music ,you cant programme imagination , you cant programme creativity and you cant programme musicality. You can fake it which is what arrangers do to a great extent by having set phrases and passages playedby skilled real musicians and having 3,4,5, or whatever number of preprogrammed variations that are provided. You can only programme music that obeys certain pre selected rules to govern the sounds that it produces which might make something that is remotely musical but it does not make it 'tasty'.

Even for music like Jazz Karma is no use. Musicians who improvise do not play random notes that obey mathematical rules for the sake of obeying those mathematical rules. The notes and phrasing is intentional not random! ! They play phrases or single notes that are in context with what was played before and after but diferent and tasty! Thats why korg and yamaha hire true musicians to play styles. You cant program authentic musicianship. You can only copy it that. Only experience provides the skill in the first place. Muscicians play phrases that are appropriate for the groove and tempo of a piece that are actually not just musical but pleaseing to the ear and speak to you. You cant programme a piece of computer software to develope 'skill' and taste and style and appropriate phrasing and creativity. Intelligent technology is still light years away from actually producing anything with even the intelligence of a worm much less a skilled musician .

Karma may well be the future for music and arrangers but that is more likely be because music wont be made by musicians as we currently know them but by people who think tweaking knobs and altering modulation and filters is making music. That in my opinion will be a sad day for music.

Chas, i'm not offended and nothing but i don't agree with you.

anyway thing is my rhythm is crappy because i'm overwelm with all this keyboard stuff, i'm VERY good at rhythms, i even gave advanced course in rhythms and percussions but i will have to be patient until i get over this harmony,notes.... stuff

When i started with hands drums i was also having much difficulty, took me many month to be able to get a simple rhythm stable but i have a very strong will and got over that with many thousand hours of practice

And now again i'm against a wall but it's no problem, it will take the times it take to get over it, it's only a matter of times and nothing else!!!

I agree that somes peoples are not musically inclined as me (or any other forms of art can suffer this also) BUT i disagree that they can't succeed, the only thing that make someone fail is when he stop.

Remember there is no try, do it or don't do it but don't try !!!

i got over so many of my limitations with years that i can say that we have very little of them, it's just a matter to overcame them.

I hope you also don't find hurtful to being told that but your truth is only yours and it can be very different for other peoples.

Have fun
MJ

Hi Guys.
Reading through this there I can see there is a huge misunderstanding of what KARMA is.

KARMA can function exactly like an arranger minus the fillin, intro/ending functions. On KARMA you have to actually select the Scenes (variations to you guys). So you have to manually press the button where you guys don't.

You can for example pull a factory style from the Pa2X and convert it into GE's which can be assigned to a COMBI sound. In short, that single COMBI sound is now both sounds and performs exactly like an arranger keyboard.

Where you guys are getting lost is everything I've just said above is about 5% of what KARMA has to offer.

It can do the basic style thing you guys are used to, and then if you want it can go WAY further.

The Random side to KARMA is not what you guys think either. There's no unknown random side to it, it's all totally controllable and assignable. Meaning you can take a predictable style and by moving a few faders build hear the same style playing back now as a new variation of the original. Much like you guys hear when you press the variation button only there is no limit to how far you can go with this.

You can use it to generate variations of the original, or you can push it to make entirly new styles.

So picture this, you load up an 8 Beat from a PA2X and instead of you guys writing styles, you simply share settings that turn the style into countless others.

Again, I'm still only scratching this surface of what it can do. As for why it does not exactly come from the factory preloaded with the typical type of content you guys are looking for is simple. KARMA is implemented on Workstations and not Arrangers.

If it was implanted on an Arranger then the GE's would be more suited to the type of music you guys play. The technology doesn't necessarily have to change, just the content it comes with.

A learning curve is required, but the same can be said about any sort of progarmming be it writing GE's or Styles.

Regards
James

I don't find it hurtful at all. In fact I agree with you 100% on that point. Furthermore, if something is very important to you, you should by all means, pursue it, but with eyes wide open. Truth is, I admire people with lots of patience and will power. I, myself, am on the verge of giving up on learning even the basics of drumming, something I started a couple of months ago but have only practiced about 3 times . The reason, it's kind of hard . Good luck.

chas

I suggest that you gave it a try again, and yeah drumming is hard but the payback are awesome, and as i allways say to people starting in rhythms just go slower, a fast rhythms is often what stop us to follow; just slow down until you got it

Lot of luck to you
MJ

James help me understand then what Karma does.

Say i am playing a funk groove 8 bar looped and that funk phrase may have dead notes, slides and picks in it. But it wont have 2 bars of dead notes or 2 bars of slides etc. The combination thats makes up the phrase is what has been programmed by a real musician and lets say that groove is called scene 1 (which in an arranger might be termed variation 1.) If i dont change from Scene 1 does karma keep playing the same groove unchanged for as long as that scene is selected ? And when i move the sliders how then does karma make a new variation that is in keeping with the style and tasty but different ?

If it can be altered please explain how karma does that without the use of algorithms that determine how the notes that are added (that you did not play into the instrument yourself ) are triggered.

I have been all over youtube and the korg website itself and i cant find any examples of of Karma sounding anything like a genuine 'real ' musician.

I am truly interested .

Cheers


[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 02-11-2010).]

Take your pick.
Yes if you want, and no if you want to go beyond an arranger.

You can restrict KARMA to play the variation exactly like an arranger in that it always plays the same notes and responds to Chord Changes just like a normal arranger.

Or.... another example, you know the way bass inversions work, well imagine your entire style responding exactly like bass inversions work.

Or.... to go all out, you can have it fully respond to chord changes, inversions and controllers.

On top of all that, we still haven't even hit on it's ability to do random things yet.



There are many ways you can do it, for example Swing Shift a GE and then activate the note repeat settings. The more of both effects you apply the more the Style will alter.

You can add all sorts of things on the back of that to go much further. For example, note repeat and octave. Depending on how much note repeat you apply, KARMA might play a certain note more than once, and using the Octave function it might start scaling up through inversions and octaves of the notes being played.

That's just some of the straight forward functions.

Soon as you start turning on the Random functions you can create everything from variations of the style playing to a completely new style. It all depends on how much you allow it to run free.

In all cases you have full control though. KARMA's freedom is based on the users settings.



Not sure what you mean by real musican since an arranger is an automated and as locked down as you can get.

Karma can do that too, but improvise. So it can sound far more real than anything an arranger can do. Maybe why you haven't seen this on your search through YouTube is simply because your listening to Workstations doing what Workstatoin do.

The GE's that come with KARMA on a workstation are fro the type of music these people play.

That said, there are some factory sounds on the OASYS that offer things like Straight Country beats. It's not the sort of thing you will hear workstation users using though.

Regards
James

I'd be fascinated to hear some of the country Karma stuff, James (and any other 'real-world' examples). A bit of basic demonstration (leave off the right hand altogether unless it triggers Karma's actions, perhaps?) showing the potential for variation that does mimic what REAL players do. I'm sure you didn't QUITE mean that first sentence, as I'm sure you understand that, although the arranger's performance might be locked down, exceptional care was taken in its' creation to be VERY accurate idiomatically to what a real player would play.

What several of us are asking, I think, is just exactly HOW do you create rules for Karma that ensure that what IT generates past the basic pattern input in the first place (which can be as real as arranger patterns - often made on MIDI guitars, drum kits, etc.) is still idiomatic to the instrument it emulates..? Can you restrict it to only certain voicings that are guitar accurate? Can you restrict the drums to only play what is humanly possible?

You obviously have quite a bit of experience with it... do you find yourself making Karma the main base of a composition if you are trying for a real-world sound, or do you still find yourself reaching for the PA2X when you want to lay something down? How do you consider the differences, weaknesses and strengths, beteen arranger use and Karma?

When you have become confident with Karma James can you provide a demonstration as this would change the whole game if what you are describing actually sounded like a variation in a style that a human would make. Does it sound like the example below ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wf34ljSSRA

You see to my ears no matter how clever the technology this still sounds like computer music. in particular listen to the guitar as Karma is being used. Listen to the drums. Everything is way overly quantized and doesnt sound like a real drummer . It sounds completely automated.

Can you find a demo that actually uses Karma that makes it sound like a human musician ?

I think you only have to listen to the creator of Karma's performances, to see where HE thinks its' strengths are. He is a synth wonk (not a bad thing, just its' own thing!) through and through.

I don't think Karma has the slightest idea how to adapt to real world rules for playing by humans. The rules are so complex, it's only recently that some arrangers (designed for the task) are starting to get a grip on guitar chord voicing and performance. And that is with a completely dedicated Guitar mode that re-voices EVERYTHING to correct, idiomatic playing, and it STILL doesn't come that close!

As Stephen points out in his demo, Karma is ENTIRELY based around arpeggiators, whether single note or polyphonic, rhythmical ones, but there's nowhere where he even alludes to how these arpeggiators can be constrained to real world rules. Let alone the fact that playing isn't, in real world music, arp or loop based anyway.

I think we should just be grateful that, for many things, there still isn't an adequate substitute for a real person! We remain too complex, to intuitive, too unpredictable to emulate. I can only pray it stays that way!

Karma, for electronic music, is groundbreaking. For real music, it is no better (just different) than what we already have, IMO. And its' creator has already spoken about his interest in adapting it to arranger-like concepts... None, zero, nada.

At least HE knows its' strengths... and weaknesses

I hope that James can fin time to give a Demonstration, to show both how KARMA can function as an Arranger and how all those other functions can add depth to the musicall styles most people overhere use. i have huge confidence in James.

What wories me about this video is that its over a year old and despite Kays promises KARMA is still not available on the openlabs machines, its already 9 months overdue, clearly there is some kind of problem and i just wonder why, no answers to be found on the KARMA boards.

@Mystic Jammer, dont let Chas's comments ruin the fun you have making music, music is all about having fun what your doing. I'm confident that with the right mindset your performance will improve stellar over the years to come. Are you still having keyboard lessons? Having a personal teacher is a great way to improve your stuff, even some of the better keyboard players i know are still having keyboard lessons or doing workshops to improve certain aspects of their play either learning a new keyboard or certain techniques. One never stops learning in the lovely world of music, just have an open mindset to it.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 02-12-2010).]

!

[This message has been edited by Mystic Jammer (edited 02-13-2010).]

Hi Diki.



Easier said than done. I'm not setup to record video and proper sound right now. It would take me an hours work between the setup and then merging the video with the sound afterwards.

It's a lot to do in order to demonstrate sometime I know KARMA already does.



OK, lets look at it in a simplified way.
You have your Style on KARMA and that's connected to a bunch of KARMA Sliders and on screen settings. While all these KARMA settings are set to 0 the style will play back exactly like a style on an arranger keyboard.

However, if you start to increase any of those value, the KARMA effect your modifying is allowed access tot he Style playing and it in turn start to make it produce new notes.

Here's an example..... You have a style playing back with all the KARMA settings at 0, and then at the press of a button you move onto the next KARMA Scene that has the exact same settings as the previous one, only the Note Repeat value has changed from 0 to 10.

At this point your now hearing a variation of the same Style as KARMA has been allowed to add to and modify a percentage of the original notes.



I would be one of many totally converted over to KARMA at this point. So much so that it worries me to see that KORG haven't reversed a dump truck up to Stephen Kays house full of money and a contract that gives them exclusive rights to the technology.



Right now KARMA is only found an workstations so the content (GE's) it comes with, the layout and functions all operate in a way suitable for Workstation users work flow. So obviously that's something that would need to be addressed if it was to come to Arrangers.

If that happened, then there would be no weaknesses because arrangers can only do a small fraction of what KARMA already does.

Imagine.... some guy buys a PA3X with KARMA on-board but he lacks all ability to program the keyboard or write his own styles. Now with KARMA he can take a style he likes and by moving a few sliders he can create an entirely new style. How difficult does that sound.

The on the other hand, some programming freak could get lost in KARMA for weeks and surface with a huge smile on his face. So it can be both complex, and also as simple as it gets.

Regards
James

I think you are misunderstanding the meaning behind the words.

If a polyphonic Arpeg contains a set of values that transpose the the root note of the chord your playing up and down semi-tones, then how is that any different from what an arranger does already.

In both cases they will all play the same pattern and respond to chord changes.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 02-12-2010).]

Don't really need a video, James. An MP3 would be sufficient (I tend to listen solely with my ears, in any case!)...

But I'm sorry, but your example of 'note repeat' just doesn't clarify it, for me. WHAT gets repeated? When? Without something acoustic as the starting point, I'm afraid none of the posted Karma things has any relevancy to what I'm asking. It all SOUNDS like a great idea, but I can't find anything online that attempts to mimic real instruments. Perhaps that IS the fault that it doesn't start with an acoustic GE in the first place (hence my desire to hear the Oasys country ones), but none of the Karma 'elaborations' of the electronic stuff seems to improvise on anything I recognize in anything other than an evolving arpeggiator fashion. Which is NOT how humans get 'more complex'. It isn't simply a question of more notes, it's a VERY delicate issue of how many, and when and which before it continues to remain organic.

I've worked, obviously, with arpeggiators most of my life, had Oberheims, Moog's and even modulars (at college) with them. And, in all my time of using them, I never once heard an arpeggiator do something human. What they did was GREAT, don't get me wrong, but it never made me look behind the curtain for the little man playing it I always knew it was a machine.

But I am willing to be converted. Please consider a simple audio recording of JUST the Karma section, doing the most acoustic things you can find, James. I have yet to see anything on the web in that direction, and maybe if it can be demonstrated satisfactorily, demand for Karma would rise to the point that someone DOES drive that truck up to Stephen Kay's door...

To continue, then... simple transposition isn't anything to do with elaboration. I already know (and you've already stated) that chord following is possible (although you haven't made any allusion to out of range notes and chords, and inversion recognition and playback in detail). If all Karma did was what we already have, what would be its' point? But the main crux of Karma is that it takes YOUR input (the source of the GE) and then creates variations upon it. And THAT is what I'm trying to get details about.

HOW does it generate, for example, a more complex guitar part from your original simple one. Can it be forced to ONLY add notes that a guitarist could physically play? Can it be forced to only add rhythms that a guitarist would typically use? Can it be forced to only use chord voicings that a guitarist would play?

That's the kind of detail I'm looking for...

Hi Diki.

I just recorded a little video in my iphone. Just let me get a Toasted Sandwich into me first and I'll post the video and answer your posts above.

Cheers
James

Hi Diki.

Ok, the video is up. http://www.irishacts.com/misc/karma.mp4
(28MB Download)




Lets say the pattern was C4, E4 G4, C5 and it just repeated like that. One note per beat too.

KARMA can take those 4 notes and make combinations out of them, play more than one at a time, double time it, swing shift it, or even go outside of the octave range.

It can do one of all of those things, or even go further by accessing the random side of KARAM.




Trust me when I say this, it's not easy to understand what KARMA is because it can do so much. You might think your not getting the answers to your questions, but in fact it's your own inability to understand what KARMA is is why you think that way. I was the exact same as you for years until I purchased KARMA Triton for my Triton Studio.

There's a sort of light bulb moment when you own KARMA and everything you have been listening to people talk about finally makes sense. I don't know of anyone who has had that moment without owning KARMA.

The video might help you understand the basics because I'm stripping back KARMA to it's basic functions.




The reason why you haven't heard anything if interest to you is two fold.

1.You will never catch a Workstation user wanting his Workstation to sound like an arranger.
2: The OASYS is a workstation and comes with content for workstation users.

So it's purely a content issue and the fact that you are listening to Workstations. I can safely say that the demo's that are online don't do KARMA any justice either. They seem to focus entirely on all the randomness of KARMA which is not something I like myself at the levels people demonstrate.

I like things to be real and creative at the same time. I'm no into the massively spiralling notes KARMA can generate.



KARMA doesn't function at all like an Arpeg. This is why you don't understand. If you look at KORG Forums you will even see people requesting that KORG add an arpeg to KARMA.



The only advice I can give you is forget everything you know and listen to what's said. It's a very different concept than an arranger and an arpeg.

It's both, but both of those only make up 20% of what KARMA is. The other 80% is a lot to take on board. I never managed to do that years ago because back then everyone was as clueless about KARMA.

It wasn't until I got my first KARMA product, and with some effort did I finally understand. Since then it has developed a lot and it far more musical and creative that any system I've ever seen.

Regards
James

Don't apologize for the demo, James. It does more to inform me than anything else I've seen out there, and helps explain your enthusiasm for the system... (Dom's an idiot not to hire you to demo the MS, IMO)

As to no WS user wanting to sound like an arranger, well, we BOTH play acoustic based musics from time to time... I have plenty of WS's, and I wouldn't mind them to be able to do what an arranger does AS WELL as what they do which an arranger can't. I think you just meant they don't want to hear bossa GE's in the standard package We BOTH know an arranger is capable of music FAR outside of that!

I can see how well Karma works given input that is stylistically appropriate to what we want to play, it's a shame they don't want to explore the acoustic side of things better. It might not replace the arranger altogether, but it would certainly give many of us pause when making our next purchasing decision.

You describe how you can take a style from the PA2, and import its' patterns into Karma scenes, and then start to generate variations based on those... have you any audio of you doing that? For anyone coming from the arranger world over to Karma, they are going to need something like that to be relatively easy to do, I would imagine. Most of us use dozens of styles in our live shows (at least!) and the time and effort it would take to make a useful GE out of them would be a factor.

I am definitely starting to see the light (and heard it too - really, the only thing that works with me!) and am getting much more enthusiastic. You see... I'm not impossible to persuade

I wonder why Korg have deliberately chosen to completely ignore musics that would increase sales to a market that is crying out for change, or why they haven't added Karma to the PA line as well as Oasys and M3? The way you demonstrate it, it seems a good musical tool.

If and when you've got the time, anything else non-electronic in nature on your Oasys's Karma would make an excellent addition to that video. We don't need it any slicker or fancy, what you posted was amazingly fast and succinct. Bloody iPhone is amazing! Is Stephen porting Karma to the iPhone next?

I've always said I'm willing to change my opinions if I heard something that supported others' points of view... Now you know I'm good for my word. And others possibly can see how easy it is to do, IF they have something to back their opinion up.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. We could have been here for another eternity arguing back and forth without that simple demo. Maybe next time, you want to make a point, just do the same thing..! I'm hard to TALK out of a viewpoint, but pretty easy to be SHOWN the error of my ways

The damn thing wont play on my computer !!!

Make sure you have the right codecs installed, get a little program called avicodec that will tell you which codecs and where to download them.

Dont try to play the MP4 in your browser but choose to download it.

James, i dont think your efforts are worth anything in here...it'll be the same all over.
They just wont understand, its the SZ Syndrome.

I used Quicktime or VLC Media Player to play this file on my computer. James, many thanks for taking the time to post an example of Karma being implemented in a very basic fashion that "arranger" folks can relate to! I've always been impressed by Karma's capabilities but always wondered how it could be implemented for simple songwriting duties...now I see the light!

Michael

That was some lovely example James, and i agree with Diki that Dom missed a chance not hiring you.

Some more questions, can i setup KARMA in such a way that there is a whole different Pattern when playing minor, major and 7th chords?

Next to that, you said that KARMA has no Intro's endings and fill ins, but thats not entirely correct, KARMA has a drum fill in on the Open labs version.

HI Diki.



Ahh it's just a personal thing with me. If something is worth doing it's worth doing right, if you know what I mean. I just didn't have time today.

Thanks though.



Yes, that would be more accurate. I should also point out that there are a certain amount of GE's in there that do indeed cover Bossa, Country and many other styles of muisc. It's just that they are not assigned to the factory sounds that much. Were they are, they are not implemented in the fashion you head in the video. KARMA is left run very much wild on them.



Right now I'd say it's overall sound, function and implementation is purely based on some sort of market research done on workstation users.

If KORG / Karma Labs were to implement in an Arranger, I bet the arranger side of things would be greatly left alone and KARMA added on the back end of that system to expand it. Sort of like, the arranger still produces it's own notes, but has to pass the midi data through KARMA. How far then that data gets through KARMA without being modified is likely up to the user and the style designers who would have assembled the factory data.

Man that would be one freaking awesome machine to play.



I'm afraid not. I've done it a few times just messing around, but never with the intentions of keeping what I imported for use.

It's easy to do, but I don't want people to get the idea that they can just buy an M3 or an OASYS and go off gigging with it as an arranger. KARMA is implemented in a way that is suited for use on an workstation by workstation users.

So keep in mind the title of this thread. Maybe the future of arrangers is KARMA implemented on one.



lol.... Yeah, KARMA is not exactly easy to explain, but something as simple as a clear video can tell a thousand words. Now if Dom would just send me over a Groove.



I'm kind of worried about that actually. For the life of me I can't understand why KORG are not trying to get an exclusive on KARMA with Stephen.

Right now the way things are Yamaha can approach Stephen Kay and ask him to implement it on the T4. If they do it first, whatever is produced will be the biggest shake up to the Arranger market every.

It would be MASSIVE...!!!! How KORG can sit back and not secure that is kind of scary.



Sure, I'll see what I can do.



I think the problem with most of what we have discussed on the Lionstracs side of things no matter how great I say it could be, I don't have one to prove it to you because I don't own one, and the official demo's don't help matters. If I worked for them as a product specialist things would be very different.



lol....

Cheers
James

I don't mind because if people are willing to post in this thread, then they must have some sort of interesting in knowing how it works.

I think the video will also help. Chances are nobody has ever seen KARMA stripped back that much in a video before.

Regards
James

Hi Bachus



Thanks for the kind words.



The short answer is no in the sense that your expecting it to work in.

You have to remember that a GE is not a pattern in any sense you are used to. So while an Arranger can access a different patterns if you play a 7th, KARMA doesn't need to and so it doesn't.

KARMA can do what you get on your 7th with any chord. It can continuously respond to the pressure you press the keys so you get your straight up pattern your used to, but it slight variations will be introduced as you play chords harder or softer.

That's just the basic idea of it though, like everything else it does way more that this.



lol... funny you should mention this because this is in direct relation to what I've just said in this post above. Yes there are triggers that can make new things happen in real-time. It can be a Pad, Ribbon, Joystick moment or even how hard you press the key.

Regards
James

A few more questions, James...

Can Karma's actions, scene changes and the like be triggered from external controllers? I was noticing how much you have to take your hands off the keys to do much of the scene changing, if it could be transferred to a MIDI pedal it might get more arranger-like.

Can Karma's functions be controlled from the velocity of inputted notes as well (preferably instead of, for me) as pressure? I'm just trying to envision how I would go about controlling it from my playing entirely, rather than from actually jacking around with the sliders and buttons and stuff. I guess I am still too old school to let the machine take over to the point where I DO have a hand free!

And is there the ability to recognize how dense (notes per beat, e.g.) my playing is and get that to trigger a function? Like your 'note number' function, for instance...

Yes.



Yes.
Almost everything in sight can control KARMA. Ribbon, Joy Stick, Vector Joy Stick, knobs, sliders, the 8 Pads (which are also velocity sensitive), CC#, note velocity, after pouch (pressure) slit points, zones, ........ and so on.

Everything can do something.



I don't think it can count the number notes you play and use that as a trigger to activate a function like an ON and OFF switch, but it will track the number of notes you play and use that as a means to do more of the Karma effect(s) applied.

For example, a chord of 3 notes will produce a certain amount of notes in a pattern, and a chord of 4 notes will produce get KARMA to do more.

Regards
James.

Cool... My goal forever is an arranger-like device that actually listens to YOU (both hands, though) and is intelligent enough to derive basic intent from simply your playing. Real players do this without thinking (at least, good ones do ), and THAT is the Holy Grail of automatic accompaniment, IMO.

The more you tell me, the more excited I get about it. I'm going to have to go back to my local Korg dealer and lock myself in a room with an M3 for about a week, and see what I can come up with. Sadly, I already have a Triton, and I can hear a VERY close resemblance to the type of sound it has (great at some things, quite weak at others, IMO).

Stephen did a software only version of Karma for Mac OS9 quite a while back. Perhaps it's time to abandon the integrated concept, and just release it as software?

for some reason i cant play the demo. I guess its time to upgrade my operating system from windows 98 (yes thats right windows 98)ha ha. Thanks for your efforts James anyway . The feedback you have received is very positive and if karma can do all that its potential shows there is a real opportunity here for you in terms of generating styles that could be made available commercially for non karma driven arrangers with a little bit of thought and very little effort in terms of style programming ability in the traditional sense.

Cheers

There is KARMA for Triton but it has to be connected to a computer all the time.

Hi Spalding
You have mail

Bill

Thanks abacus you are a gent.

James that looks actually very useable. Can Karma mimic things like guitar slides and bends and mutes? I can see from that short demo how karma could make variations to a theme or drastic variations.

Is it possible for you to take a PA keyboard up tempo style with lets say rhythm guitars bass and drums and make variations of styles with those ? What I am really keen to hear is how the strumming (down up) is handled by Karma. I heard how the guitar in your demo produced arppegiated plucked notes and it sounded fine but how doe it cope with strummed sounds or slides ?

Thanks again so much for making your point with examples . It saves us all a lot of misunderstandings.

Anything that can be converted to a Midi File can be converted to a KARMA GE, so Yes.



There are many factory sounds that offer that by default. YOU can even play a chord and strum the guitar with your finger by sliding it up and down on the ribbon.

Again, that's only one of many things you can do.

[quote]I heard how the guitar in your demo produced arppegiated plucked notes and it sounded fine but how doe it cope with strummed sounds or slides ? /quote]

All you need to do is select the relevant GE that offers the effect your looking for. From that point onwards you can then use the sliders to get as many variations of the effect you want.

The GE's are labelled very clearly. So if you want a Guitar Strumming GE, you just pick the one labelled Guitar Strum.

Regards
James