Just anotgher note:
when someone download and install my new OS 4.0, do NOT include ANY GIGA/VST sounds and styles!
we include also one basic Debian sounds installer of our Giga soundbank GM and some Free VST/Asio Demo version host, thats all.
what then the custumers will install on the 250/1T Gb Hard disk is NOT our problem.

Hi bachus
Maybe the answer can be simple..
the true owner of Steinway is dead, Korg is alive..
guess now from who you can get a legal letter?
Kidding

Hell James you are a luck sod, FOC, MS, the luck of the Irish is with you, will it have Microsoft Office 2007, if it hasn't i will send you a bent copy. Oh and Autocad 2009. Hope the hell it don't crash on you, he does say what colour Black or Red sorry not in Green! Bugger Bugger! He only says is is tinking, he's ever speaking Irish.

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 02-14-2010).]

Hi Diki



lol...



Wish I had one to do just that. There's no reason in the world why this keyboard shouldn't sound great now. All known OS issues of the past have all been addresses and the new OS is supposed to be running faster than ever and like a dream.



You heard everything I did.

End users playing completely out of time and posting inappropriate examples does help things that's for sure. I think with so much focus on the demo's at the time, maybe those who had the ability to play well didn't feel comfortable putting their music online.

It's understandable too, it wasn't their duty to do so, and in all fairness it would be like throwing yourself out to the wolfs because everyone was so hungry in wanting to hear something good.



I know your not against them, but the issue was deeper than that. It was about ability they have and the benefits of having a single system that integrated everything into one seamlessly package, VS a closed arranger.

I believe an OPEN arranger is the future and can be quickly customised to do far more than a closed arranger, and I think you were pretty much of the opposite opinion based on how much work would need to be done initially to get it doing what you want. Without anyone around who owned one and who would take part in the conversation verify facts we would have never gotten anywhere. It did get a bit much in the end too as there are only so many ways we can say the same things.

It's like the KARMA demo I posted. Look at how much confusion a silly little video cleared up in a matter of seconds because it directly addressed the issue being discussed. That's the sort of thing Lionstracs need in my opinion.



It's a complex subject that deserves it's own thread. Not in relation to what Lionstracs are doing but the overall topic of sharing styles. Everyone here is probably a thousand times more guilty with all the styles they have collected over the years, but apparently so long as no fee is charged for the styles, there is a rather big loophole in the system.

If you buy a Style Disks it comes with a copyright statement, but if you buy an entire keyboard full of styles, it comes with no copyright warning at all. It has something to do with the fact that the product can be only considered one thing and not many things.

For example, it's either a musical instrument, or it's a computer. Law is black and white.

Cheers
James

But then, just add THIS to any top of the line Workstation like M3, and you have ultimate possibilities, as long as you are prepared to tweak every style.

I'd add KOMPLETE for sure and espescially at that price and some more memmory. And offcourse Omnisphere.

Just need to get a handson, and i am wondering if the VSTi belonging to the M3 could run on Mediastation too.

If more units get their way to mainstream musicians this could be the instrument to build a huge fanbase of style creators.


But i also think Diki had a point... The open systems keep missing what makes an arranger, a well ballanced set of styles and sounds that works straight out of the box. Sadly the Q-ranger while being an awesome tool for live use is like a bar that only sells softdrinks.

Wow.... I have to pinch myself here, I must be dreaming. Heck YEAH. That would be truly fantastic. Thanks a million.

Promise I will put it to very good use too.

Kind Regards
James.

PS:..... Diki, your in some trouble now mate....

It should do because it does behave exactly like a VSTi.
In addition to that, with the M3 connected you could also install the PC version of KARMA on the Lionstracs keyboard and it would work.

So, while the M3 is connected you would have KARMA running on both the M3 and Lionstracs keyboard.

Regards
James.

Thing I have always wanted to hear honestly, is not ONLY something decent worth a listen, but also a frank and honest discussion about how long it took them to achieve that result. I'm aware of how high quality VSTi's can take your sound, but I'm also aware of the formidable work it often takes to get those results of the highest caliber. Multiply that by the songload of most gigging arranger players, and you could easily end up with a task that would take so long to complete (before you could even take it out to gig) that most wouldn't attempt it (if they knew in advance).

BTW, ponder this, those of you that consider swiping styles. OK... yes the industry is pretty lax at enforcing their copyright of styles made entirely from MIDI, but the copyright laws and enforcement of those laws is MUCH more stringent, rigid, and easy to prove in court when you are talking AUDIO. Mechanical rights are a whole different thing to MIDI files. Ask any rapper who lifted a sample and didn't clear it...

Ketron pay a FORTUNE for their audio loops, compared to a MIDI file. And it is as stringently copyrighted as any Micheal Jackson hit. Audio has its' own rules, completely different from MIDI.

And, even in the case of styles, Yamaha have been known to go after sites that put up their Premium styles, or sites that disseminate the styles of a brand new arranger while it is still hot on the shelves. If the LiveStyler was able to play the latest Yamaha style formats, and someone actually HAD gone out and cloned a T3 in all its' glory (SA2, Mega and everything ), you honestly think they are going to let that clone take their business?

Dom just shrugs and goes 'I just make the gun and the bullets, I don't actually KILL anyone', but when you see posts from HIM, telling everybody about the ability to play Ketron's loops, he's now telling people HOW to kill people, in effect. And once you can show intent (and a profit reason for disseminating that information) it's a LOT easier to prove intent. Don't think that facilitating copyrighted information has any consequences, ask the guy who invented Napster. They shut him DOWN... (the bisiness he's in now, and what Napster has become is all about NOT copying illegally).

If Dom announced a licensing agreement with Ketron, I would be celebrating it, not trying to take a shot at him (as he thinks it is - if Roland did the same thing, I would be equally critical). But at least I remember the whole furor when he announced the T2 clone project. Two things come to mind. Firstly, it never worked (as do many of his ideas in the real world), and it disappeared off the face of the planet pretty quickly.

I wonder why?

Hi Diki

I've actually paid for research to be done on this subject and in the end the solicitor couldn't provide me with one law that would be broken if I sampled another keyboard. Yet she could quote pages of information on what law would be broken if I sampled someone else's recorded works.

Ok so when I heard the words “recorded works” I said ok that's how the factory sounds are protected. She then corrected me and said no, not at all.

Where it all got confusing was the second you try apply the law to a musical instrument. You cannot copyright the sound a musical instrument produces and there is nothing left open for debate in that at all. It's a simple open and shut case. You can only copyright your programming that actually went into creating the factory data.

The argument presented by her was where do you think the keyboard manufactures get all their waveform data from in the first place and how is that any different from you sampling their keyboard she said.

It's a good argument actually.

If you were to reproduce the programming that went into creating the final sound, then your screwed but as we all know, sampling is does not reproduce anything other than the sound it hears, so your not reproducing anyone else's programming by sampling.

Now apply that to factory styles. Now you are in a situation where you are reproducing the actual programming or part of it. However the factory styles that come with your musical instrument come under a royalty free copyright statement which throws the law out of whack and makes it very hard for the developers to sue you of making copes if their data if you are not charging for it. .

So long as your not charging for the styles, then there has been no infringement of the royalty free licence because the data is still free.

Please note, none of what I've just said is a representation of my feelings or opinion on the subject. I'm purely only sharing the research I paid for and even though the answer I got was clear, I won't be tempting faith.

That said, in the history of Samplers and Style sharing, nobody has ever been done for doing it and by hell it goes on every day on a massive scale. So maybe the research is 100% correct.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 02-14-2010).]

I think there's a clear legal difference between a set of samples to make a multi-sampled instrument (note I didn't say there's a MORAL difference) and ripping off someone's loops wholesale. In fact, there's PLENTY of case law pertaining to one person ripping off an entire CD of sampled loops (think Voices of Native America, any loop collection of famous drummers playing their signature beats, etc.) and selling them. Or using them in productions without a licensed copy of the original.

We've long ago had the go-round about whether MIDI styles are copyright or not (basically, they are if they are, it's up to the vendor to pursue the offender) but case law is long and hard against those that lift audio performances (which are what all the drum, bass and guitar loops in an Audya are).

The thing that really gets me going, and could probably give any decent lawyer a decent case against him, is that Dom doesn't just make the tools to use this piracy available, he comes HERE (and probably a lot of other forums, too) and TELLS you about the new pirate abilities, as an inducement to buy his product. Follow the money...

It's kind of like Apple telling everybody where to get the warez to run on their computers, so people will buy them. Stay quiet and let people figure it out for themselves, they can throw their hands in the air and go 'it's not us'. But TELL them where the warez are, SHOW them how to use them, help them with troubleshooting the warez, you think that Apple wouldn't be up to their necks in lawsuits?

I know it's a knotty problem, but we either pay attention to it, or, when someone rips off your pop hit created on an MS, and distributes it for free (or even worse, uses it to promote THEIR product without your permission), what legs do you have to stand on..?