It is reactionaries like Spalding that assure that America will NEVER return to sanity vis a vis gun murders. Simple question, spald... If thieves are using guns in Britain, why is their murder rate FORTY times less than ours?

The reason that the death penalty does not work in America is that it is so painfully obvious that it is simply used as a race penalty. Look at the rates of application of it for identical crimes based on skin color, and you will see why it has no effect over here. Until ALL gun offenders are penalized identically regardless of race or economic status, it remains a bad joke, and no-one is laughing. Except rich white murderers, I suppose!

And OK, I admit that the death penalty is barbaric. But so are the US's murder figures, FAR in excess of any other 'civilized' country (you DO call America a civilized country, don't you? ). To be honest, if use of a handgun was penalized simply by life without parole, and it was applied without any mercy or regard for race or economic status, watch how fast those thieves would start carrying Tazers...!

Make the penalty draconian enough, and 'Never take a gun to a knife fight' might start to be the NEW joke...

yeah! You're right Donny. Either way, he was a big-a$$ed dog.

Gary

Some thoughts:

1) A weapon (any weapon, whatever it is, from a sock full of sand to an M60, is considered a "force multiplier". Then, if you have the proper amount of training for any particular weapon, and the "force" factor is 1,(bare handed human), then the more big ass weapon wins the round. My sock full of sand wins your bare hands, your HK11 wins my 9mm pistol. So the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" really means "assess the situation correctly, react appropriately, use suitable force, walk away in one piece".

2) There are countries that use the death penalty regularly and also use harsh punishments. Crime continues to exist there. Guys were executed in China after the melamine milk scandal, yet a new case was uncovered after some months. Thieves and murderers continue to exist in the Persian Gulf states, no matter the whipping and severed arms, beheadings, stoning etc. It clearly does not work like that. And no matter if everyone has a taser and the other choice has death as a consequence, many many guys would opt for the bigger "force multiplier" because criminals run an enterpise and want faster results and faster ROI and are not usually found to excel in common sense.

3) The bible has it all. You think of something, chances are it is in there. That is why people love it. The best tale ever told. Having faith is good though.

4) If you look closely, you will find that the Secret Service does not look forward to win a fight when confronted with enemies of POTUS. Ok, they have that kind of training, but their main aim is to make sure nobody is even thinking of doing something. That is why when your president wants to hop to California to see the Terminator in person, an advance party goes there a week before, coordinates everything, keeps tabs on local nutheads, takes them to the movies to keep them close at all times (actually read that in a newspaper article) and only then the Air force One touches down in LAX or wherever. In summary, they do whatever they can to DETER bad guys, not to kill them. They put alarms, and make sure EVERYONE knows it.

5) Dogs are fine deterrents, but to quote a line I read... "No one runs faster than Mr Heckler & Koch" or "Mr Nine millimeter". And they also can be defeated by a plateful of brake fluid. Some ancient civilization used ducks I think. They are food to everything that moves, so naturally the make a terrible fuss when they hear something.

6) As long as you own a weapon, you have to be prepared to use it. They are not for show. If you don't use it, the assailant will use your weapon or his against you, never mind his original intentions. A gun may act as a detterent, but remember it may also "up the ante". I want easy money, I am already past lawfulness... Instead of money you show me a 9mm, you get the full treatment of my AK-47. Case closed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]It is reactionaries like Spalding that assure that America will NEVER return to sanity vis a vis gun murders. Simple question, spald... If thieves are using guns in Britain, why is their murder rate FORTY times less than ours?'

This is a foolish question dikki , almost child like. You really ought to think more about the factors that influence gun crime and murder rates generally more seriously.

You are actually asking a complex question to do with the mentality , culture , life styles, life expectancies, and disparities of wealth and opportunity from country to country. You cant be seriously suggesting the ONLY reason America has a higher murder rate higher than the UK is because some US home owners might actually own and potentially use a gun in self defense ?????

Why then does switzerland or israel have lower murder rates than the UK and yet more liberal gun laws ?

I am honest enough not to pretend to know. Do you know dikki ?

What you might want to consider is the following :

1. Are all murders carried out by theives in the US ?
2. are all murders carried out through gun use ?
3. Who are the most common victims of murder by a gun ? (you will find it is people who already have a crimminal record)
4. What proportion of murders were carried out by legally owned licensed guns ?

There is tons of research on this subject.
I could go on but i will not. But let me give an honest answer to your question , i dont know why america's murder rate is higher than the UK and i am in good company with a host of academics trying to understand this very same problem. Are you suggesting that you do ???

I'm not pretending that there is NO solution to it other than to continue down the same descending scale of violence, if that's what you mean.

Technology continually upgrades these 'force multipliers' until they basically have no meaning. Keep an Uzi at the house, and so the thief HAS to bring an AK-47? Keep an AK-47 at the house, and the thief has to bring a rocket propelled grenade? Keep a rocket propelled grenade at the house, and the thief has to bring a tank?

Where does it stop..?

Unfortunately, spalding, in the eyes of pretty much the rest of the civilized world, it is YOUR viewpoint that is the childish one, not mine. American media is obsessed with violence, with skewing news coverage to emphasize the crime that, in all honesty, doesn't represent anywhere NEAR the need for the response it gets. I know Michael Moore shoots himself in the foot a lot (figuratively... I'm sure the NRA would prefer it to be for real ) basically playing the same 'hype the message' game the American public is so used to these days, but Bowling for Columbine ought to be required watching, simply to demonstrate some of the nastier, dirtier, more shameful reasons Americans have allowed themselves to gaily trip down this path to Armageddon. Race hatred lies at the root of MANY of America's supposedly unsolvable problems. Gun violence, drug enforcement, urban sprawl and 'White flight', inequalities in education and opportunity... At least Obama's election has drug our dirty laundry out in the open again for a little while. Not that anyone's calling for the bleach

But you're right. Things are SO good, why should anyone try to make them better? I mean, it's not like we even CARE that gun murders are forty times less likely in the nation we cast off as oppressive all those years ago, is it?

That's an oppression I could live with... literally!

I never said your view was childish Dikki. I respect your view and anyone elses . I said that your question was child like because the question completely ignores all the other factors that affect gun murder rates and crime generally and your subsequent post barely touches them in the context of murder by guns. I also never said that there was no solution to the problem what ever you percieve that problem to be. You seem to think that there is only one solution. There are many potential solutions.

I gave examples of countries that have a much more relaxed attitude to guns , Sweden and Israel just as an example and there are a host of other 'civilised' (however you define that ) countries who have more relaxed gun laws.
Do they all have exactly the same problem as america ? Finland has a 30% gun ownership of its population and although they have a higher proportion (about double) of gun related homicide rates than the UK (including self defence killings and crimminals shot by the police) ) they have only a slightly higher rate of homicides ( about 1% difference ) in total when all deaths by homicide are taken into account .

Clearly licensed and lawful gun ownership is not the significant factor that you are trying to make it out to be.

Your example of escalating weapons just because home owners also might arm themselves is again child like and is not even worthy of debate.

And the country that was cast off becuase of their oppressive regime was repelled with guess what .....firearms. Had they not done so they would still no doubt be servants of the British empire. As an ex pat i understand why that may not be an issue for you but i think your american neighbours might have a different point of view.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 03-30-2010).]

I think that the above, is very weak as an example.... It is just a mentality

French people revelled, guns were used, but their descendants are not walking around packing heat. Same here, the Greeks revelled against the Ottoman empire in 1821, lots and lots of guns and swords were used, yet we are not permitted to own guns.

When you finish watching, you turn off the TV. You finished eating, you pick up the plates. you finished with the enemy, time to hang up your arms. And don't tell me you are keeping them in case Brits want coming west again.... Diki is one of their agents, came here to prepare the invasion.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 03-31-2010).]

They should have sent Tony. We would've surrendered already .

chas

I was advised to buy this paint.. http://www.insight-security.com/per-paint.htm
But then to be told by the Police, that if a burglar climbs over my wall and the paint marks his/her clothes they can sue me.

Not yet chas, but THEY are working on it ... THEY got it out of the public schools didn't they?!?!? ...

And I am in total agreement that we need to change the environment ... Sometimes a kid will get 'lucky' and get through a bad environment in good shape, but far to often that is not going to happen ...
My daughter began her Social Work career working in an outreach program ... she would come home some nights absolutely LIVID because a judge felt a child was better left with his/her 'parents' - even if the parents were strung out druggies who were abusing the kids in ways we would not begin to comprehend ...
I just pray that SOMEHOW we find the answers and people accept them ...
t.
PS chas, I also agree with what you were saying about 'society' putting the burden of "need" on kids when it comes to cell phones, iPODS and the rest ... and IMO it starts with the clothes, and some public schools here in RI are requiring school uniforms which I believe is a step in the right direction ... the kids have certain options on what to wear, but generally it's khaki or blue pants or skirts with a white or blue shirt or blouse ... eliminates all the peer pressure about looking as 'cool' as the next kid ...
And I firmly believe that after a while, as soon as those kids put on their 'school clothes', they will get into a learning mindset ...
t.