Yamaha has a new synth workstation ready, but has put it on hold to see what Roland and Korg come up with as their current Motif range is still very competitive.

They released the CP1 stagepiano as an answer to Rolands V-synth... and so is their strategy changed from 3 year product cycles to wayting on the others and then reacting to that with a superior product.

The New Motif Workstation should be heavilly virtuall technology based. Same level as the CP-1.

The CP-1 blew the MOtif away with its piano sounds, and even the roland V-piano sounded blass compared to this new Yamaha Arranger keyboard beast ..

It might come very close to Ivory II... and adds a superb keyfeel to the package.

If the new Motif comes close to this with all of their sounds, its a stellar improvement.


So basically i guess we are wayting on ROland, as Korg recently upgraded their M3. While being the best looking workstation it seems like the Fantom G was the big looser of the last few years...

But then Roland is concentrating on everything else but the keys department.

well Yamaha knew there would be one of these 2 producing a workstation anytime soon...

So it could be Korg that is creating something new.. Stephen Kay not finishing the KArma project yet for openlabs could indicate he is doing some heavy work on KARMA 3 that would be required for the next Korg workstation too.

So with this impasse all innovation have left the hardware workstation scene, while this is exactly what this scene is wayting on...



So since they don't see instuments as Open LAbs and Lionstracs as true contenders yet, Yamaha is sitting there and wayting.....



Roland flat out admitted that their hardware key instruments where currently their lowest priority as they could make much more money in other parts of the industry, and thats where their research people where spending their time.

IF ( I say: IF) I will close my Company or stopping the LIONSTRACS products, they will be ONLY be happy!
IF this happen, mean that you there for the next 5-10 years you have to continue buy the same soup.,
because they will then recycle again the same hardware and never jump to the X86 system.

It mean also, that people like Leezone..can NEVER see on one MI with the USB3..SATA3, dual-quad-six core,1 to 16Gb Ram and so on..
Forget also product with Windows OS, because the big manufacture will never pay the big mass license when under Linux is about all available and much stable OS.

With Linux they can develope the all what they like with the full source available including for the basic OS. ( OASYS was the example)

We will see what happen on future..soon we exit with the new Rack 2U products and Stages keyboards,
( no Linux KDE interface, just the kernel and some basic applications, like Linuxsampler Giga Streaming and 4 multiple Asio Host..)

Anyway..prayed that I do not close, otherwise all your dreams will not be come true never.
Enjoy what you play

The day you sell more MS's in a whole year than ONE Guitar Center sells Yamaha's, you might have a point, Dom...

But let's keep it real, eh?

Diki needs new G70

Dom you are having to heavy instrument for him.

Two hands, two G70's...

Coincidence? I think NOT...

Makes them easier to carry when they are balanced

I appreciate Domenik's remarks and he makes some good points. The Big Three are basically producing the same "soup" over and over with incremental improvements here and there. For instance the Tyros and the Pa series although the Pro version includes 76 keys whereas Yamaha limits its incremental improvements on a 61 key platform only for their mid and high-end arrangers.

That's why I didn't get a Tyros2 or a Tyros3 because the improvements were incremental (beyond the SA voices) and having to shell out $3,000.00 bucks every three years or so is simply NOT very cost effective for me.

Don't get me wrong. If the Big Three ever got beyond their "trickle down" economic structure (although I highly doubt they will) I would be very open and interested in getting the "latest greatest" if indeed that latest greatest was actually more than just a minor face lift with a few cosmetic improvements and the cost wasn't these astronomically priced absurdities that must have the keyboard manufacturers laughing their heads off all the way to the bank.

When you consider that computer parts are quite cheap in price (we're NOT in the 1990's anymore folks) and that keyboards are essentially computers with fake ivory keys , you realize that the only one's making out like hogan's goat are the Big Three whilst consumers are basically getting shafted in my opinion. It's like the fine Furniture market where fine wood furnishings are WAY above real market value but manufacturers are still able (by hook or crook) to command these ridiculously high prices for fine wood furnishings. But I digress...

Anyway, Dom's "vision" is a high accolade to him for his tenacity to get beyond the "same 'ole soup, different year" mentality and produce something that would be considered truly 'revolutionary' in my opinion. Now if he could just get beyond the 'astronomical' aspect on some of his products Lionstracs sales would no doubt shoot through the roof, in my opinion, and overall it would increase his "bottom line" as well in the long run.

Although in both Lionstracs and Ketron's cases because they are considered smaller sized businesses it is a lot harder for them to get their prices more in line with the Big Three and probably impossible for them to turn much of a profit if they were to go considerably below the competition. Of course in Lionstracs case you are getting a considerable "bang for your buck" for those higher prices as opposed to the Big Three's incremental "same 'ole soup" shenanigans popped out every three years or so. I know it all has to do with "marketing" and that the Big Three do what they do because it is the best market strategy for "them" financially. But I have decided to 'refuse' to get "sucked in" to their incrementally based system and will only upgrade when the "cost, value, performance" meets my criteria and not before. Sorry Fran. I really don't mean to offend anyone and if there are others (and we know who you are ) who don't mind doing the upgrade dance every three or so years - more power to you. I guess I'm getting at that age where if it "don't have that swing" it's starting to "not mean a thing" to me I reckon.

Furthermore, being able to "mass" produce your product(s) off an assembly line is much more convenient and economical for manufacturers as evidenced by the Big Three who in "many" instances offer great products at reasonable prices - except for their high-end arranger lines apparently. I can also attest to the Linux operating system as being excellent, having just recently ran the latest Ubuntu OS. It is extremely stable, highly functional, and has very good performance. And Dom is smart for using Linux if you ask me.

Well, I'm gonna get either a 76 key high-end arranger keyboard or an arranger module at some point in the future (if I don't croak and go to heaven first ) but I'd like to wait to see what the next Big Three offerings will be before I fork over the dough. I would really like to see the Big Three get beyond their 128 note 'road block' and also implement some other 'revolutionary' concepts too. I'm still eying Lionstracs occasionally hoping for another 76 key offering that hopefully won't break the bank in the process, and also Ketron's next 76 key Audya?? offering (in ten years or so ) - or perhaps even the newly announced Audya4 module if they introduce it at a reasonable price. Yeah right!

All the best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-27-2010).]

The component cost of just about ANY keyboard has been the least of its' value. We have ALWAYS paid for the content, the sounds, the styles, the OS...

Buy an 'open' arranger, and you haven't YET paid for the content at all (at least none able to rival the closed ones). You will STILL have to fill it yourself, at your considerable time and effort (and what is THAT worth to you? I know mine is valuable!) with the sounds you want, the styles you want, and then get them all to 'play nice' with each other. If you have the time and skill to do that, you are good to go...

If not, caveat emptor...

Diki wrong.
You are having basic setup.
Many sounds and styles.
It is only on you what you want.


If you want special VST than this is your problem.

And for the many people on this forum that want new things all the time and so keep swapping keyboards all the time..

This is a blessing as they can add new stuff to their current keyboard without having to buy a whole new one.

We've all heard the basic sounds and styles, Magica...

That's WHY the emphasis is on third party sounds and styles (and even style PLAYERS) Nobody WANTS what it comes with

It comes with whatever you want it to come.. Just give style developers another year and there be killerstyles available...

People have finally got faith in Medastation because its now a very stable system and thats the 1st thing needed to start 3rd party and enthousiasts style development.

Qranger is the most versatile style engine available on the planet, and it keeps only getting better.

The glove is now with the community to develop those styles... Its the modern way of thinking that Diki can't addapt too

Style developers are first going to have to work out a way to get PAID for their work. One of the primary motivations with 'open' keyboards seems everybody's willingness to go out and steal whatever styles, sounds, loops etc. they want to use. I know nothing about cracked VSTi's in Linux, but I would bet heavily that that is a consideration, too.

You honestly think the cream of the style makers are going to put much work in making styles that better the VERY sophisticated ones in TOTL closed arrangers if, after the FIRST one is sold, they pop up on the torrents and goodbye money?

All the excitement about the Yamaha and Ketron style player software shows EXACTLY what people think about the quality and quantity of the included styles... And unless Dom pays the GOOD style creators for content to be included, you are going to HAVE to do all the work when you get your MS, and it is likely to bump the price up considerably, if he wants to not lose money on doing this in the small numbers (comparatively to Yamaha) he sells the MS in...

If I were Dom, I'd be looking at bombproof copy protection for included Lionstracs styles and sounds, or it's going to be a tough job getting third party style makers to spend a fortune developing loop based styles when they know they will be pirated immediately.

You see, in a way, even closed arrangers are 'open' For years now, anyone COULD make styles for them, with sufficient time and talent. But look at what has actually happened... Hardly ANY user created styles that are of the quality and professional sound as the ROM ones. I think this basically shows what you are going to be looking forward to, should your plan of action be to wait this mythic year (that has always been a 'year' since the inception of the project) for the users to provide the content in the hippy trippy delusion of a grand 'open' user base of suddenly competent style creators.

Sometimes I just think the MS is the equivalent of the 'flying car' we were all promised in the fifties. SEEMED like a good idea, someone was always trotting out a prototype, but when reality began to impinge on the dream world of it's inventors and proponents, suddenly it became a pipe dream. ONLY top pros have been able to create top styles aside from a TINY handful out there. Just because the MS is 'open' isn't going to change that fact in the slightest. And unless top pro style makers can get their money for making them from YOU (rather than from the manufacturer, which is what happens in the case of closed arrangers), what on earth is going to persuade them to make them? Altruism? The warm glow of having created something to 'share' with the world out of the goodness of their hearts?

Yeah, right...

If these guys don't churn 'em out for free for the closed arrangers, what makes you think they'll suddenly do it for the open ones..? They want to get paid for their labors, just as you don't want to play gigs for strangers for free. Or are we all thinking that some kind of utopia is about to break out? 'From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs'...

Where have I heard THAT line before..?

Oh Diki you’re starting to sound like Tony (Sorry Tony)
Users that buy the Mediastion KNOW that there are no TOTL on-board styles and that they will need to create their own or convert other styles. (Why is it you have great difficulty understanding that you are not the centre of the universe, and just because you want something, there are plenty of others that don’t want what you want?)

An Open Keyboard has missing features that you find essential, fine, don’t buy it, but don’t keep telling everyone that because you are not happy with what it provides, everybody else should also be unhappy with it. (You views are not a default standard for a keyboard; they are purely “YOUR” personal opinion)

Regards

Bill

Diki
Old story. You need to chnage your LP.

We all know how good is your G70

All fine and dandy, but until ONE of you guys start to show us that you CAN make styles that even come CLOSE to what a good closed arranger has on board, it's just a pipe dream, isn't it? Unless, of course, you have some perverse desire to make music with crappy styles, so that you can say you did 100% of it yourself...

I don't get it, I really don't... What is it about the thought of purchasing an open keyboard that somehow persuades seemingly normal people to delusions of grandeur? Face facts, guys. If you haven't ALREADY produced a library of top notch styles for your existing closed arranger, what on EARTH gives you the impression that you suddenly will develop these extraordinary skills now?

What's next? Maybe you think you can sample your own TOTL soundset to go along with those TOTL styles? Isn't just MAKING music hard enough? You really got that down so cold, that you are looking to start a new career..?

And we've all heard how bad your MS is... Your record is just as stuck, Magica, don't try to fool yourself.

I am afraid that when i can let you hear an awesome mediastation style you'd be sking for 10 more, and when i can let you hear 10 top quallity styles, youd be asking for 100 of them.. and when we have a Mediastation with a few hundred top styles, you'd be asking for 1000's of them..

A good community can develope some 100's awesome styles in less then a year.

Diki
The point is that not everyone wants all these all singing all dancing styles (I know I certainly don’t, just like many others) as they just get in the way of playing, (Just look at the number of posts from users where they say I normally just use Bass and Drums, or simplify the style to suit the song)

As I said previously, “You are not the centre of the universe” so don’t moan just because other user’s requirements are not the same as yours.

Regards

Bill

I think Diki's point is that Roland, Korg, and Yamaha can produce 100's of 'awesome' styles 3 seconds after you open the box.

And cheaper.


chas

The idea is that the community produces and shares the styles for free... Its a Linux system and exactly thats the core of the linux world.... Sharing...

Sad thing is that Yamaha, Roland and Korg treat keyboard players like little children by still selling the same old junk after all these years and not having any innovation at all in their systems.

They try to use as cheep hardware as possible to make as much money as possible.

James has shown that you can import styles and adjust them quite easilly to get some freaking good results... everyone can do that and then share their results on the web.

All I'm saying is... point me to where these mythic free TOTL styles are. Even when stripped down to basic drums and bass, there's a level of quality, of natural flow of the variations, of professionalism in the fills, of inventiveness in the groove, of usefulness in general for many many songs (not just the one it is aped from) that separates professional styles from amateurs' ones.

Add in any of the other parts, and the difference becomes greater and greater, until you get to where we are with user styles in general now. There's ALREADY a huge 'open' network of style creators for closed arrangers by users. And, in fairness, they fail almost completely to equal those that come from the manufacturers' pro teams of style builders.

If these style makers can't make great styles for a closed arranger, what's going to make them any better on an open one? Just as buying an open arranger isn't going to make you a better PLAYER (no-one's crazy enough to suggest that, are they? ), buying an open arranger isn't going to make you a better style programmer, either.

I'm sorry, but pie in the sky promises should not persuade ANYBODY that there MIGHT, maybe, possibly, next year in Jerusalem, be a large library of quality styles available for the MS. Let's not fool ourselves... the reason there is such interest in Yamaha and Ketron software style players for the MS isn't because there's such a huge selection of great styles ALREADY available, is there?

You know, now and again, a few FACTS go a long way to making your arguments for you. Tell you what... when there IS a large selection of quality styles made by users available for the MS, let's talk about this subject again, OK?

Until then, file it under 'pipe dream'....

Korg, Roland and Yamaha old junk and no innovation? Yea right.
At least my Korg PA500 is a lot cheaper then the MS and the styles sound right and is absolute no old junk.