http://www.youtube.com/user/Thoralf1101#p/a/5115EC887FA7AB05/1/A8faboshlR4

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-14-2010).]

How many people use a pedal with their KB to bring in a "COLOR" sound like this guy in the demo?..

It's a very nice video. He has a funny but endearing accent.

He makes it look easy.

Beakybird

Larry take a look at some of the other videos all kinds of "good stuff" in there !

Never play WITHOUT a pedal...

In fact, I play with volume pedal AND the seven switch FC-7, and if needed, add two REAL sustain pedals too. Seems a waste to have your two feet dangling there doing nothing, while your LH bounces around like a poor jackrabbit trying to play AND run the arranger at the same time..!

Diki please speak for yourself ...
I NEVER USE A PEDAL, the hand is quicker then the foot!...to each his own.

I don't want to criticize players who work off of MIDI files vs. those who don't, I'm mainly interested in the technique of playing a keyboard without any pedal at all.

Its not a question of speed, but rather the sustained effect when the pedal is depressed. Unless you have more fingers or hands than we do, how do you achieve the standard sustain effect? Not to mention, the added issue of at some point needing to lift your fingers from the keys to either hit various buttons to trigger an arranger function or simply play the next chord.

Can you go into more detail? Better yet, could you shoot some video of yourself while explaining your technique. I didn't understand how you did this the last time this came up and would like to...

Cheers-

------------------
Bill in Dayton

There are no sustain pedals on Hammond organs, and I don't think too many organists or accordionists use one, and, the arranger is basically a single keyboard home organ, or, perhaps, much like a horizontal electronic accordion.

The arrangers have had velocity sensitive keyboards for quite some time now, so a volume pedal isn't really a necessity.

Having said that, I never play an arranger without my trusty sustain pedal, and I use a volume pedal quite a bit too, but everyone is different, and I've met several people, some who were pros, that did not use either.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-16-2010).]

I know we've been down this road before ...

Hammonds and accordions aside, I can't imagine playing certain polyphonic arpeggios in piano mode without a sustain pedal ... but as Donny says "To each his own" ...
t. ...

Me neither, Tony, hence the sustain pedal is a necessity for me...but, there are those who play and don't need them...usually organists shifting over to arranger.

Ian

The Piano is the LEAST instrument sound I use when I play an arranger KB....and when I do, my technique will mimic sustain when need with no problem. that's all I will say.
I will duck now

I agree with DNJ about the piano being the least used instrument (voice), at least during MY performances.

I still use a pedal, though, but for right hand instrument effects other than sustain. Most of the time I'm using various combinations of guitars, saxes, vibes, strings, and some custom voices I made. One of those custom voices is a grand piano with a strings layer, which I frequently layer with vibes. I guess everyone has their favorite right-hand voices. Of course, there is another pedal for the vocal harmonizer as well. You can do lots of neat things with pedals, but you can do those exact same things with registrations too.

Cheers,

Gary

You are right..original Hammond's don't have a sustain pedal....or a volume pedal...it has an "Expression" Pedal though. Its used for much more than just adjusting volume.

On an arranger a volume pedal will adjust total volume, but an expression pedal should only adjust the right hand sound (not rhythm). You can use the pedal to create a delay or decay on the sound as well as simply changing the volume as needed.

Also on a Hammond (going right back to day one) the expression pedal also adjusts frequency at the same time as volume. Not so many people realise that.

I remember very well, working the expression pedal on my B-3...a necessity for me.

That why I say...you don't play a B-3...you ride it.

The Leslie was just as much a part of the expression, and to know when to switch from slow to fast was an art...between the swell, and the half-moon Leslie switch, it was like playing a voice; a human-like voice, with tonal, and volume expressions from the drawbars and swell pedal, to the pseudo vibrato from the rotary speakers winding up and then down.

You could make a note seem to "hang" by stabbing at the expression pedal.

Ian

It's all the Technique my friends

Anybody thinks they can play a real piano part without a sustain pedal is just kidding themselves. Just as you can't play a sax part without bending and scooping notes, guitar parts without hammer-ons and -offs, violin parts without legato and staccato notes, and an organ part without an expression pedal...

You might be playing the SOUND, but you are not playing the PART...

Just as it is painfully obvious to an old accordionist that someone playing an accordion sound isn't really getting it right, trust me, anyone playing a piano part without a sustain pedal isn't fooling anyone that KNOWS what a piano is supposed to sound like.

Just themselves...

Yea Diki.....fooling anyone? give me a break it's an arranger KB NOT the "real LIVE instruments" no matter HOW you do it.....

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-16-2010).]

Interesting comments...

I guess it really comes down to the players approach with their arranger. If the user is using MIDI files or having the OTS cover the rhythm section, then all that's left is fills, solos, coloring...and you wouldn't have to have a sustain pedal for that.

I play piano through most of my tunes main sections. I also do several tunes a gig where I don't kick in the arranger function at all and am basically playing a straight acoustic piano, for which I certainly need a sustain pedal.



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Would you please go into detail on how you do this? How do you mimic sustain with no problem without a pedal when you're using a piano? Do you avoid certain styles (legato with large sustained chords) in favor of only more staccato uses?

How exactly do you do this?


------------------
Bill in Dayton

Must be a case of D�j� vu...
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017468.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020274.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/006379.html

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

It's kind of like saying... I have a trumpet where all the valves are frozen. But I still play trumpet parts on it. As long as I ONLY play when I wouldn't have to finger a note, it sounds JUST like a trumpet!

What's probably the most disappointing thing about the whole approach is simply how EASY it would be to add a sustain pedal. Weighs nothing, costs nothing, the easiest thing in the world to operate... But apparently, not for Donny!

Look, I grew up on pianos, to start out with. Doesn't mean that, once faced with an organ, I didn't learn how to use an expression pedal! Once faced with a brass instrument, I didn't learn how to control the mouthpiece and valves and slides. Once faced with a guitar, I didn't learn about strumming... But apparently, faced with a sustain pedal, Donny is stumped

His loss...

Voncken's using a sustain pedal in this video...

Donny- Just grab one of your pals and ask them to shoot 1 or 2 minutes of you demonstrating this technique. I'm quite serious...

I can't see this in my mind for tunes featuring a piano and with sustained passages. I know you have this "lightening fast technique thing" worked out and would like to see it.

...or anyone who doesn't use a sustain pedal with their piano...I'd just like to view it.


------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 04-19-2010).]

There is no technique on the planet (lightening or not! ) that can allow you to play an arpeggio legato over a couple of octaves... with one hand.

As I said, the only way not using a sustain pedal works is to NEVER play anything that NEEDS a sustain pedal. Which is about 60% of everything. If you are happy with 40%, you are good to go. Some make do with 10%...

I know I can't play without a sustain pedal....

Like opening up the tooth paste...and not having a tooth brush...


Or a waffle without strawberries..

To each his own....
bottom line what does it sound like, ALWAYS.
enjoy your pedals boyz..

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-20-2010).]

But if it sounds like poo, no amount of SAYING it doesn't will change that.

So THAT'S the problem........Well then, somebody PLEASE give Fran a pedal .


Kidding, Fran. I couldn't resist. The Devil made me do it, and all that....



chas

PS: DO NOT RETALIATE .

There is one fact I have learned years ago...Great players never have to toot their own horn.....and they never need to belittle any other persons ability...Only less than average players need to look at others flaws in ability to enforce their own insecure playing...that they are already aware to be less than average...

No retaliation intended.....


There are so many here on SZ that fall into the less than average category...

I can only think of one or two ..maybe three..."great players" here on SZ.....and they do not include my friends...

Hmmmmm....maybe I should start using my sustain pedal again

I should add that there are many "good" players here...some are my friends, and sparring partners too...

Fran, I was only pulling your chain, but you're dead right, I should not have posted that, even in jest. But then again, you know that I lay around looking for openings like that and then I pounce. I would have done the same to Diki or Ian. Just consider it a character flaw . Then again, Diki or Ian would probably have just laughed it off, feeling confident enough in their playing abilities to know that I was only kidding around.

You're right about one thing, though. I AM a 'less than average' player, but at least I'M AWARE OF IT.

chas

Chas YOU have a deep passion for music and thats worth it's weight in gold my friend!!

Chas, I already mentioned that you were aware of your average abilities..


I can and do laugh at all posts here...I am confident in my own abilities.....and can also laugh at my own abilities too...

Your post just gave me an "opening" to expose some truth about some things that are always being mentioned here on SZ..


This has been a trying week..personal issues, and I am weary..so I am saying good night...

Hey guy...stop being so modest! If I could play jazz organ half as good as you can...I'd be farting through silk.

This video clip still breaks me up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIc1Yb_uY8U

Fran, for what it's worth, I only kid people that I like. The rest, I avoid like the plague . Of course, I WOULD have a lot more money if I'd just quit buying every piece of gear that you recommend . That MUST mean that I trust your judgement about gear, especially sound gear (the Traynor K4 is one of my all-time favorites and makes my organ sing (no, not THAT one, the C1 ).

Sorry you're having a bad week. Go flirt with one of your 'roadies' or have a pancake w/strawberries breakfast, that should perk you up .

chas

Although we might not agree on some things regarding musical gear, etc, I highly respect my best friend Fran's advice and opinions. This week after an intense studio demo I listened to Fran & I bought the Edirol 10DX mixer and it's nothing less the Bliss for me on stage....it's got great features to really mold your sound in so many ways & so much more then the average mixer. I love this unit......thanx again Fran.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=861

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-21-2010).]