When people use hardware, James, they tend to bring hardware paradigms to the table. So much is made of how good the MS is, but whenever anything is wrong, suddenly it's the software...

Yu can't have it both ways. Either the MS is a dumb bit of kit that does NOTHING at all, and everything is down to the software (in which case, it becomes a question of whether the hardware is cost effective and needed at all, when MUCH cheaper computers can run the same software), or the OS and associated software IS something to do with the overall instrument, in which case criticizing it for failures past and present is legitimate.

As has been pointed out, do you REALLY think that Dom couldn't have programmed full ON Bass capability into it during the four or five YEARS it was supposed to be an arranger (running on HIS software)? And if not, WHY didn't he do it? It is when ESSENTIAL details get missed so blatantly, like this, that you wonder about whether some of the other things that plague the MS will ever get fixed also, or only those that Dom thinks are important?

It is SO nice and convenient to simply toss off anything he doesn't FEEL like fixing himself on the shoulders of it being someone else's software, but this is the Achilles Heel of the entire 'open' arranger concept. When the entire thing working properly doesn't rest in the hands of ONE team, but in the myriad teams of a myriad of different software entities, often with little regard for how other parts of this mess of worms wants to use THEIR software they designed for THEM... or what schedule they feel like fixing broken parts of the OS (especially when few of them even design with Linux in mind) as things get updated and changed.

Arranger by committee... and none of the committee is talking to anybody else in it.

Integration is the mantra of the arranger. WS's can get away with being far more piecemeal than an arranger. But for an arranger to work, it has to ALL work. Smoothly, easily, integratedly. I'm still not seeing that. You have issues with this, issues with that, issues with something else. But you can't go to ONE place and ask for it all to be fixed. Which you CAN with a closed arranger.

At the moment, live use of VSTi's, especially in an arranger, everything ready to go at the drop of a hat paradigm, is still pretty low on most VSTi designers' list of priorities. There's a lot to be said FOR open keyboards. But I still feel that the open 'arranger' needs a LOT more advancement by softwrae designers at ALL ends of the spectrum. From OS design (Dom and Linux/Wine's dept.), to VSTi design, to style playing design.

Bottom line is, someone calls up and says they need a four hour all arranger (no SMF's) gig from you tomorrow. Do you grab the MS, or do you grab the PA2X? (you can't have BOTH...)

For all the videos, for all the excusing whatever faults it has on this that or the other software developer (but never the MS itself), I bet you grab the Korg...

Hi Diki.



If you have been following the threads in the Lionstracs section of the forums you would see that when there is a problem the responsibility to fix this is directed that the right people.

Lionstracs responsibility is to provide the platform and deliver the seamless integration through their custom software. That is the full scope of what Liosntracs are expected to provide and if that is compromised in anyway, then those issues need to be dealt with by Lionstracs directly.

This is exactly what is been happening and we have all been talking very openly over in the Lionstracs section of the forum. Domenico has been great in responding.

So I'm sorry but I don't see things taking place like you see them. Things have been extremely productive actually and the Mediastation is just a hair away from being every single thing ever promised.



That's not how it works at all. Try to think of a Lionstracs keyboard in terms of modules you can link together. Lionstracs provide the platform for these modules to sit on, and the means for them to communicate with each other. They also built a few of these modules themselves that offer functionality to the keyboard but that's the scope of Lionstracs responsibility. You then have all these other third party modules like Linux Sampler, Wine, VSTHOST, Live styler and any VSTi you install which can do all manner of other functions but being third party modules, they have nothing to do with lionstracs and so if you have a problem with them, then no point blaming Liosnracs for other peoples work.

So Linux is the OS and the foundation, Lionstracs custom OS runs on top of Linux in order to provide the platform and some of Lionstracs own modules. Finally you have the third part modules that make up the rest.

See ?..... You can't just point the finger Liosntracs for all responsibility.



Haven't got a clue to be honest. Is it even important any more ? It's all past history and things have moved on quite a tremendous amount overall.




Well he can only fix what's under his control. This is the nature of an open system and the entire point of the concept. It's simply logic.



Silly. How many programs have you installed on your PC ? Do the developers of all those different programs communicate with each other >

Exactly... no they don't.



Be specific. What are you referring to ?
I'm not aware of any issue in the arranger software that needs to be fixed.



Well just look at how far things have come since this time last year. Right now there is nothing in the world stopping you from going gigging with the keyboard as an open arranger.

Progress is made by positivity and constructive efforts.



Honestly, I have grown to be so comfortable with the Mediastation that if I had a 4 hour program of all arranger playing, I would use the Medaistation just to have the mega sound of Giga files with me. There's a level of pleasure that's impossible to describe when your preforming with massive and super realistic sounds like that.

Regards
James

+1 James!! Well said.

D

James, you've had the MS for how many weeks now? I could have done four hours on the G70 the day I bought it...

And the POINT (as I said) about Dom's refusal to deal with on bass chords only emphasizes that Dom fixes what he WANTS to fix, not what the users of the arranger needed. And here you are, saying that, once again, the MS is 'on the cusp' of finally fulfilling its' 'potential', blah, blah, blah... You have to understand, we've been hearing the EXACT same thing for at least five years.

I've been reading about your issues with the super low latency of the Linux core and how many VSTi's can't handle it (don't think I don't keep tabs on what is going on) and, as far as I am concerned, this thing looks no more ready to run than it did five years ago. But I keep hearing the same excuses.

If a keyboard's greatest strength is also its' greatest weakness, where is the advancement in that? If every aspect of an integrated arranger lies under the control of several different and ultimately competing interests, what is the likelihood that they will EVER all get on the same page..? Every time Linux gets changed, there may be issues. Every time Wine gets changed, there may be issues. Every time a software VSTi (originally designed for Windows) is updated, there may be issues. No-one is taking the rest of the picture into mind when they make changes.

This isn't what I'm looking for, when it comes to a piece of gear I might base making my living around, I'll tell you...

Just tell me, James... how long IS it going to take to work up those four hours?

Are you talking about Windows?
Windows95>windows98>Windows2000>WindowsXP-SP1> XP-SP2>XP-SP3>Vista> windows7>...how many years we have more to waiting untill Microsoft can release a STABLE+working OS?
Do you think that the all VSTi are there full working nice too??

Are you able to running the native Gigastudio3 and also 1 simple standard ASIO host?? Or more shame...rund one ASIO host/DAW and then tell me IF you are able to play one standard Mp3 with VLC, mediaplayer...
IF windows is so perfect, why then nobody there is not able to running 2 or more application at once?

So..if the bigger Microsoft company is NOT able to release a definitive and stable OS, it mean that they still are working for continue fix the OS too, same for Linux, Apple and so on. http://www.driversupdate.org/asio-drivers.htm

IF you don't like to follow at the new PC technology, just remain to play your old embedded G-70, T3, PAX,Audya...just look inside and you will see the same hardware recycled from 10-15 years...

Now is released out the USB3...do you think that the all device there will working perfect? Again we have to waiting that the all company fix and release the new drivers too.
Is a compromise..IF you choose one Open system you have also to follow the all upgrade issue, if you choose one standard embedded system, you will remain stopped at the same pont for many years.

The question can be the same...why to buy the new Apple Ipad when already give ton of others and less cheap possibility?

James..same for you...why you have buy the Iphone where you can made the same calls with a simple 20 USD Nokia? I know... now you like browser Internet on the MS connected with the Iphone USB network..

Anyway...enjoy what you play.

Hi Diki.



Your being childish now.
It takes me months to put together a program because my standards require me to push the technology right to the edge of all it has to offer and to sequence heavily in the process to accomplish what I hear in my mind.

Those are my standards and I will always try push both the technology and my own abilities to the limit. Simple as that.

I couldn't do what you do simply because I find it unacceptable.



Simple fact.... none of what your talking about is applicable now. Progress is only made from being positive and productive. I don't care about past issue that don't apply any more.

That's called progress.

Everything you have been saying on this forum for years regarding the Meidastation is pretty much irrelevant because of the progress that has been made.



You have no patience. If a problem is found it must be discussed and analyzed. I have two problems with VSTi's and if you had actually followed the two threads you would see that Domencio researched this and found there is a memory leak in wine, and in the process a fix was already found for this issue, and he was even after asking 64 Studio to send him a new build for testing.

So in the space of a few days we went from finding a problem to having the solution in the hands of Domenico for testing. That's bloody impressive.



There are none, but like pretty much everything else you can say about the keyboard, none of it applies any more. Things have really moved on that much in the space of a year.

I just wish you would listen to what I'm saying and open your mind because could be your ultimate dream machine of all times. I really mean that.



I had hoped you would have understood that concept from the way I explained things regarding modules. As I said, Linux is the foundation, Lionstracs custom software is the actual platform that the modules communicate through.

So regardless of all the variables, the entire point of Liosntracs software is to make communication seamless between all all the modules.



Being paranoid about what MAY happen is a wast of ones time. Sure I could wake up dead in the morning



That's because your afraid of it and you underestimate your own abilities. You have got lazy and found contentment in just hiding behind someone else's programming. I don't mean for that to be rude or insensitive, I'm just saying it because I feel you need a kick in the arse and to cop on to yourself.

If you don't push yourself you learn nothing.



If you don't have pride in what you do, how can I make you understand why it will take me months of work ?

Regards
James

Diki

Time of closed kbd is gone.

Now you need to enjoy with open one.

You will never be satisfied with what we done with our machines.

I know that you will play on it one day.
All compliment to you. You advise what is wrong and how much time we need to spend on it. You never test it really as need to be. You are only talking.

I spent my time only with making of my sound bank and I can play with it now.

Styles are even more simple. And I know that even you are using 20 styles maximum. Other is only your combination with different sounds.

People who are listning us at gigs are not interesting how really perfect is sound kbd. We - musician want more.

Evangelize all you want. I've said, many times before, I'm no stranger to what software based sounds can do for you. But I'm also no stranger to what they CAN'T do for you.

Currently, they can't substitute for an arranger, at least not in the way that 99% of arranger users use them for. You want to use an MS as an arranger, you had better be prepared for a VERY long, steep and tiresome process to even achieve the level of performance of an OOTB closed arranger. No-one has YET shown me anything otherwise. Until the open arranger presents me with the ease of use, live, as a closed arranger, all the extra stuff is superfluous. James, I could be gigging on my K2500, Triton, and a bunch of other gear. But I don't... Want to know why?

Because they take FOREVER to make sound good. My G70 sounds as good OOTB as the K2500 does after a week of work. For each song. Every minute spent programming is a minute LESS spent gigging. There is a question of diminishing returns. I don't know about you, but MY audience is FAR more interested in what I'm playing, than what I'm playing ON...

In other words, my G70's piano is really pretty good. Sure, Ivory MIGHT be a bit better, but my audience wouldn't care one jot if I played brilliantly on the G70 or an MS running Ivory. NOT ONE BIT... For 'live', there IS such a thing as 'good enough'. You want to get REALLY purist about it, nothing in the MS is 'good enough' either, compared to the real thing. Not piano, not organ, nothing. Sure, it's closer, but it isn't REAL... So, at some point, you have to make a value judgment. Is the expense and prodigious effort of programming an MS worth the slight increase in realism of the sounds?

Nothing I've heard yet makes me believe so.

In the studio, you don't NEED the integration of the MS, because you tend to lay things down one at a time, anyway. And live, until this thing is programmed to offer the same degree of ease that a closed arranger offers, the improvement in sound isn't worth it, IMO. You keep making out like I'm lazy... Far from it. My studio stuff compares to anyone's, tracks I am on are on the radio, TV, you name it. Major labels, blah, blah, blah.

But playing out live is another thing. My day is busy enough already, without having what appears to be WEEKS of preparation (or more apparently, months or years, from what I've heard so far ) before you can even show your face in public. I'm sorry, but everything I've heard so far from people actually GIGGING the MS has been pretty much rubbish. Are they ALL simply bad musicians, or is it a LOT harder to integrate the MS into an arranger than everyone makes out..?

D [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]


[img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]

D I K [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] I [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]


[img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

maybe domenico can use new name for new MS generation:

LIONSTRACS MS-DIKI X76




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-22-2010).]