'I've already done this and you can see the end results in Video 7. It takes no more than 5 minutes to tweak a style. So, is there anything wrong with what you head in that video ?

Sounds good to me and exactly what I would expect to hear from a typical closed keyboard.'


Thats not strictly true James. I dont know if you have ever tweaked a style yourself for live use. But it takes much more than five mins. Trust me on that.

For example most styles comes with between 2- 4 variations . Then potentially another 2-4 fillings plus maybe 2 endings and intros. All potentially will need to be tweaked and balanced . Also for more complex styles than the one you used in your example there maybe completely different effects that were used in the original style that would need to be applied to the converted style to make it sound like the original style again for each style variation fillin etc. For example if i were to convert the funk style on my korg i would have to find a similar funk drum set with say for example flams in the style for the conversion and the bass sound will have different slides,slaps ,mutes and picks in it to make it sound authentic. This style has up to 3 or 4 Chord variations within each style (i think)and the bass pattens change subtley between chord variations. How easily does that convert to another bass and drum set from a totally different company ? For example is the programming thats was done in the bass sound in terms of its response to velocity plus the mutes slides etc all standard from one VSt to another ?

Then if you have the facility on your keyboard the sounds will need to Eq'd as well as balanced between variations. Not just adjusting the balance of the sounds but the tonal quality. Thats why the demo you did sounded just like any other style conversion i have ever heard and thats not a critiscism of what you did. it was acceptable style conversion . But like you, i have pride in the work that i do and acceptable is not really what i am looking for. These are just the things i have experienced when making a style conversion sound as good as or better than the original. It can be done on any arranger if you have the skill and the ears and the time but i have never heard one yet. some got close though......

I know your demo was just to show how it could be done in terms of technicality i thank you for. No one else to my knowledge has ever done this for us to see .So thank you for that . It is in no way a put down of your work James , i want to make that very clear.

The boast of the MS (that as yet remains just a boast) is that you can use converted styles and make them better than they sounded on the original. Also that this is fairly easy to do simply because of the potential selection of high quality sounds it can facilitate.I know from experience that to just make a style conversion sound as good as the original takes a lot of time and skill including a very good ear to guess what sounds and effects were used within the style to make it sound as good as the style .

So ....

All i need is
1.To hear a style demo with all variations fillins etc sounding better than the original it was copied from a true A B test
2. Details as to how it was done and how long it took you to do this with just one style.

Thats really not much to ask after waiting over 7 years .

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 04-25-2010).]

Just get live-arranger trial, set it up to use your goliath as a GM source, fine tune the styles and you know what MS can do for you as an arranger... And Q-ranger is even more powerfull.

Hi Spalding
I see what you are getting at, but, you edit a style to your personal preference, however my preference could be totally different to yours, therefore there is no way a style edited by someone else will ever match your expectations.

If you just want to make it sound like the original, buy the original.

While Korg has the most extensive sound editing features on any closed keyboard, it is still primitive compared to most VSTi, and therefore you will be able to do everything you already do, and much, much more.

EG:
A good VSTi package is Komplete 6 http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/komplete-6/ which comes with the Battery 3 Drum sampler http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/battery-3/ (Also available stand-alone) which has 12 GB of drum samples and over 100 drum kits, therefore I can assure you that you will find one to match the mapping of your Korg. (And if you want to edit the sky is the limit)

In a nutshell, an open keyboard and VSTi will allow you to make a converted style better than the original, (To your preference) but it will not allow others to make the style sound better than the original to you, as your preferences are not transferable.

This is why I always say, unless you are prepared to put the work in, stick to a closed keyboard.

In your case IMO an open keyboard would be a dream, as you could really achieve your exacting standards, way beyond what your Korg offers. (Assuming you have time available of course)

Hope this helps

Bill

The boast was that the Mediastation could use, or load in, a factory preset style from another keyboard (manufacturer), and after a bit of editing and saving, make that style sound better than it did on the original keyboard.

I'm also interested if the Mediastation can play that style, and then, when the player switches to another edited (and stored) style, the transition is done relatively seamlessly, without losing any of the quality of either.

Ian

Hi Ian
As mentioned in my previous post, only YOU could make a converted style from another manufacture sound better than a manufactures style, as no one else has the same idea as to what YOU think is better.

If you edit 2 styles in a closed keyboard, and make them totally different to each other with the settings, then the transition between them will NOT be seamless, however if you match the settings then they will seamless the match.
The same principle applies to the MS. (You just have more settings that you can adjust)

Hope this helps

Bill

No Bill, actually it does not help.

I would understand that the style loaded into the Mediastation would be edited to use the same type sounds in each part...if the original style used Finger Bass, then you'd substitute a better quality Finger Bass from the Mediastation...if the guitar in Chord 1 was a Mega Voice Steel String Acoustic, then you'd replace it with a more satisfactory one from the MS, an Acoustic Grand Piano in Chord 2 would be exchanged with a superior one residing in the Mediastation ...and so on.

Since the Mediastation is using multiple VST's, it shouldn't be too difficult to find better sounds...or at least, that's the claim by Liontracs.

I'm also wondering how quickly the next edited and "improved" style selected will load in.

I believe that's what several others are wondering as well.

Ian

Hi Ian
The problem still remains, the Finger Bass voice I would select to replace the one in the style, is highly unlikely to be the same Finger Bass that you would choose, (The same goes for the rest of the sounds) in addition the balance and reverb settings etc., would also probably be different to what you would choose, none of which may be to your liking, and so the style (To you) would not sound as good as the original, whereas to me (As its set-up to my personal taste) it would be sounding way better than the original.
Likewise if you set up a style to sound better then the original, it would probably only sound better to you, not to me.

The above is why it is not possible to setup a style (Or any other keyboard for that matter) for anyone else, as each person’s opinions will be different.

Sounds can be set to pre-load on boot up, or when you load in a VSTi in manually, therefore there is no loading time between voice changes. (If you look at one of James early videos, he pre-loads the sounds (Which can be saved) and this allows him to switch between a 500 MB Piano and any other voice straight away.

Hope this helps

Bill

Hi Spalding



Trust me, I've programmed quite a few styles in my time for companies. My analysis of it is how it is providing that the style uses the same sounds on each variation which is always highly likely.

You can even hear me testing all the different variations and fills too.

If the style does use different sounds on different variations, no big deal then. I just untick the GLOBAL option and proceed working on the style in the exact same way I show in the video.

It's not like we are talking about actual programming here, this is nothing more than some basic operation of selecting a sound and adjusting volume and the send values of effects assigned.

So I still say the demo stands true to what it demonstrates. It takes a style that's not optimised for the keyboard and makes it operate just as good as any closed keyboard.

Ok... it wasn't a basic enough style pattern wise, but the amount of note data makes no difference.



I'd have two problems with the way your thinking on that.

1: Effects governing styles are global to the style selected and the only independent control you have over them is the send values for each track. Which I did edit in the video too.

2: Why on earth would one's goal every be to make the style sound exactly like the original. That's impossible as the sound engine is what gives the styles their sounds, so since in this case I don't have the sound engine of a KETRON, there's no chance in hell I'm ever going to make it sound exactly like the original. You shouldn't even be trying.

The end result sound only ever be quality and so the goal should be in this case to make it simply sound the best it can on the Medastation and forget what the original sounded like. It will never sound like a Ketron because you don't have Ketron sounds loaded into it. It will always sound like a Medaistation.



None of which is part of the style, it's all down to the sounds and the GM standard to a point.

Every Arranger is nothing more than a GM bank of sounds. Some better than others and more complete. Your slap bass might at best have 2 layers of multisamples, one for straight notes and a higher velocity one for slapping the string. Who's to say I my bass doesn't have 5 layers that reproduces even more detail.

Things sound more live when you have sounds like that. Again the goal should not be to try trigger off that slapping noise, it should be on getting the sound selected to play back the style more like the real instrument would.

Same goes for your right hand sound too. Your piano probably has 2 layers, 3 at most with each sample assigned to a number of keys. My piano has 5 layers, and ever single note is a new sample.

Which is going to sound better assigned to a style ? The one with 2 layers and stretched samples or the one with 5 layers, no loop points (natural decay) and full per note samples.



Hmmm.....True, there is no EQ per track in Live Styler but the state the sounds were in when sampled does not change unlike closed arranger keyboards. On a closed arranger the raw sample pass through the engine and is processed by the filters to give them dynamics and tonal changes and ADSR. Then it passes through the EQ and effects and you hear your sound.

On the Meidastation the sound is constant. When the sound was captured, it was captured with everything in place. So regardless of what mode you listen to it in, it will always sound the same. Sure you can adjust effects, but EQ, and tonal qualities are a constant, unlike closed keyboards. There is never any processing of RAW data. The sound is complete going into the engine.

With that in mind, I don't think tonal quality is something I'm every going to worry about when I can do things like assign a 500MB piano to a style, or guitars from Hans Zimmer.

However..... with all that said, for anyone deep into sound design they will also see flaw in this kind of complete sound to ADSR setup. Happy to discuss that, but it could be a topic for another thread as it would get very deep very quickly.



Sure and totally accepted.
I also think it needs to be addressed, and rightly so. Every Medaiatation owner can right now show you the keyboard blowing way pass workstations and arrangers when it comes to ( to use an arranger term) right hand sounds.

When it comes to styles I have not shown you anything you can't do already on your own keyboard. The converted styles just sound like... well converted styles.

The only reason for this is that the GM bank being used to drive the sounds it's very likely a collection of sounds from other Arranger keyboards. It's a sort of best of the best collection and it's very good, but it doesn't allow us to clearly demonstrate an open keyboard blowing way past a closed keyboard.

Again to use an arranger term, we get it on the right hand sounds, but the left hand sounds are still very typical arranger.

It's quite a funny thing to complain about actually. It's like being totally spoiled and never having enough.

So... until someone, Dennis or myself likely comes back with either a VSTi routed or a new mega GM bank, you guys will have to just hang in there.

I'm in the process of going through my GM bank as we speak and replacing sounds with premium content. So next time you hear a style playing back guitars from me, chances are the sounds will be from Hans Zimmer Guitars or some other award winning library.

I've decided that my efforts are best spend updating the GM bank with my purchased premium content rather than simply connecting in a VSTi because it will give me an instant boost in sound across any system that uses the GM bank.

For example, next time I load a midi file or a Karaoke file, or a style, or a.... whatever.



No problem, and I do want people to give me feedback. I'm not doing any of this because I have to. I'm doing all this because I would like to help people out and understand this keyboard.

The amount of feedback on the actual demo's has been almost zero. If I had of uploaded the typical camera mic content we have seen in the past, the forum would have been set on fire, but when I upload exactly what people ask for I get almost no feedback at all.

I have been taking that as a good sign, but it's nice to know what people are thinking.




Yep.. this is the only thing left that has not been demonstrated. And it will be demonstrated. Because the content required to do this does not come with the keyboard you need just hang in there until I'm or someone else is ready to go.

With Dennis jumping back on-board, it's either going to be him or me that gets there first. He might go straight for a VSTi, I don't know, my route is a little more complicated as I'm replacing the core GM bank where necessary.

Must point out though, when I say where necessary I mean where I have premium content I purchased that I know is of superior quality. It's by no means a bad reflection on the stock GM sounds. If I simply have an award winning library of sounds, I want to use them instead of the stock GM equivalent because... well they are award winning sounds.

When I'm ready and I hear a style playing back, I want to hear every bit of detail in every instrument used. I want to be able to even hear the type of plectrum used on a guitar.

I have all that on my right hand sounds. It's not time to get it on the left.



There will be no A & B example uploaded. Not by mean anyway. I'm not interested in comparing the sounds off a closed keyboard to huge giga files. I would think anyone even half deaf would be easily able to tell the difference when listening to the style.

What I will be going for is producing a style that does offer a superior sound that's so obvious you won't be asking about the closed keyboard it came from. As I said above, it's about the quality of the end result, not emulation.



Well I've been saying it myself for at least 2 of those years Lionstracs needed to hire a product specialist with the ability to play and record demo's in a manner suitable for people to listen to and get some sort of grasp over the concept and quality.

Still, here we are and things have moved on quite a big in the last number of weeks. Everyone now knows and I would assume accepts that as an OPEN workstaion it is super flexable and it sounds awesome.

As an arranger, we are not there yet. So far I would hope that people would accept that it has been demonstrated that it has all the abilities needed, and that the sound can sound like any typical arranger keyboard. So for function and ability there is no issue.

What remains is to now demonstrate it surpassing all that in a big way that's seriously noticeable.

Everyone happy with that evaluation of where we are at ?

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 04-26-2010).]

It boils down to this then, does it Bill?

It can't be proven that the Mediastation can make another arranger's style sound better than the original.

If that's the case, then people should not be making claims that cannot be proved.

Those making such claims, over the past number of years, should retract them immediately.

I hope this helps.

Ian

Why drive a Stick Shift..........
When you can drive an Automatic?