Ian if someone would try what you saying and post it here and it proves to be spectacular versus the original sound assignments people would be online to buy a MS unit including myself....... it's a simple request, I hope we hear it soon from some of the MS owners here on SZ if possible...should be interesting.

no James i dont agree. It not just about midi notes other wise ALL style conversions would sound better on higher end keyboards with better sounds than the original. In my ears this is rarely the case. Now maybe my ears are faulty but i would back them over the millions of words that have been said about this issue since converting styles became technically possible. But i wont get into a debate with you about it.

A simple A B test will settle this. Its not about creating a style that is exactly the same as the keyboard it was copied from. It is about making it sound better just by using better individual sounds and a little tweaking. There may be some subjectivity in this but pretty much everyone will agree that the styles in the T3 with its new sounds generally sound better than the styles in the Yamaha psr 8000. But a converted style from a yamaha psr 8000 will not ncecessarily sound better on a T3 without some monster editing even though the T3 may have better sounds. Like i said its not just about midi note data ! But lets not get into another discussion about it. we have talked about it for 7 years !!

A simple A B test would be enough to convince most (not all) if the theory that simply replacing the sounds with the best sounds you can buy makes the overall style sound better in reality and not just on paper (if things can sound on paper or text as in this instance !!!) . Or whether it is about the synergy of all the parts that creates the greater audible impression/quality.

That would settle it for me in any case and i suspect for many right here (assuming that it did not take a huge time commitment to do per style).

Actually, Spalding, it takes very little tweaking to make a PSR-8000's style sound much better on a Tyros3 (or an S910)...I've converted/edited quite a few styles in my day, and the procedure is quick and simple, as long as you stay within the Yamaha styles, and not be converting from Roland or Korg...these latter two take a bit more work.

Ian

Sorry but I've always found this to be dead easy. Better sounds really do automatically make things sound better. Getting the balance and settings right is also a piece of cake.

I know a performance can be played to get the most from the sound it was written with, but your then talking about the limitations of the sound and keyboard used there.

The newer keyboard your loading the data into could easily have a sound far superior that will make even more use of the performance as it may support more layers.

Which is often the case these days ad manufactures are including far more detailed sounds.

Regards
James

James will certainly get good results,
why:
-he converted Native Instruments Bandstand sounds to giga format.
-Bandstand-sounds are in kontakt fotmat
-kontakt format is well recognized by extreme sampler editor.
-so, he can with few clicks convert all 128 kontakt format instrumetns to giga format at once.
-because both formats are well supported by extreme sampler editor.
-instrumens will sound the same in both formats after converting, because all layers and loop points and other settings are the same ...............

Trosa has done good work with existing GM/ GS sounbank. but because he used a hardware may have missed some sound deltais.becouse of layers and looppoints and other settings.........

a hardware sampling requires more time to get good sounds.

So it is better to use sounds for your GM/GS bank in giga format designed by real sound sampling devolpers. or sounds in giga format created and provided by some manufacturers freely available for download to meet their other sound library. if this sounds are in a format which is recognized by extreme sampler editor or awave studio, with a few clicks you can convert the sounds to giga format.

another advantage on MS/Groove is that you can make the giga GM/GS bank very very bigger then 128 instruments.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 04-26-2010).]

I don't see much of a problem getting a generall style sound better with better sound samples, That should work obviously.

But with song styles, you need to find the Jazz-guitar that souns just like the orriginal, this will be a lot harder to acheive.

Hi Ian and Spalding
You say just substitute the same instrument in the style, (Such as an Acoustic Nylon Guitar) which is fine in a closed keyboard as you have a very limited number to choose from, but you can have 100s to choose from in the MS, so what chance is there that an MS owner would choose one that you would think would be ideal for the job, and if he didn’t, then no matter how good the sound, your still going to prefer the original.

If on the other hand you have an MS in front of you, and you can’t find any suitable sound to replace the original (Highly unlikely) then yes, for you the MS would have failed to live up to its claims.

Probably the best way to go about it is choose 1 or 2 of the factory styles for the MS owner to use, (Difficult with Korg as manufactures styles are difficult to get hold of) then let him do his job.
When the style is posted, say what sounds need changing or adjusting so that the MS owner can tune the style to your preferences. Eventually after a few postings you will have a style that suits you, and it would also show what you could achieve if you had a MS.

Just posting styles Willy nilly doesn’t work I’m afraid. (One man’s meat is another mans poison)

It would also help if a sound demo of the original style could be posted, along with the variations, chords used etc., to make it easier for the MS owner to compare. (It would also make a 1 – 1 comparison easier)

Bill

James, I have converted the Bandstand library to Giga3 with Extreme...I had a problem recognizing the "New Presets" division of Bandstand...It shows unknown Kontact file...error 3.....Were you successful converting this division?

If so , would make the conversion available to me?


Zmago, how is the new GM map you were working on ...coming along?

I do agree with you Ian....wow I surpised too!!!

The depth of programming on a Yamaha style, particularly those using mega and SA voices is, in my, view almost impossible to achieve on anything other than a Yamaha

Just for teh record, I was never one of those who claimed the MS style engine could be better than the Yamahas, Korgs, Ketrons et al.

I think the "playing" sounds, via VST's can be possibly better, but not styles.

That said, what I am going to try to do is see how CLOSE I can get the MS to the Yamaha styles using either VST or GIGA sounds. I already have a GM soundset based all on Giga patches, so that will be my first port of call in setting up the style. If I cannot get that to the level I think it should be I will then adopt a VST approach.

As for chord progs...I will also try to get the Live Arranger to emulate correct chord progressions including variable root bass lines...

To keep it all consistent, I wonder if you, or someone else, could record a couple of 32 bar chord progressions, no right hand work needed and then burn them down to a 256 MP3 and send them to me.

Perhaps one prog on the s910, and the same one on a more basic PSR that perhaps uses less SA and Mega technology (only for purposes of review).

Do one with variable root bass lines, and the other with the bass only on root.

I will then do the work on the MS, and post both sets of mp3 files.

I think that is the fairest way to do it.

To be honest I do not think the MS with the Live arranger will come too close to the S910/Tyros styles, but perhaps it will be a case of "they sound good , just different???".

But I think we can get it pretty close to a "standard" PSR.

Anyhoo let me know what you think.

Dennis

Now that this is officially another 'open' vs 'closed' arranger 'discussion', I think it is safe to say that every conceivable point of view has been expressed. Almost all have valid points but still the debate rages on. So what does this tell us? Nothing, as far as I can tell, except that perhaps the debate itself is more important than the answer. Carry on.

chas