A good player on a Casio will sound better than a bad player on an G70. Does that make the Casio or the G70 the 'better' arranger?

With regards to the acoustic and synth bass analogy, finally you are now understanding the problem and the absurdity of an A/B test.
There are just to many variables to take in to consideration.
If some one were to take an acoustic bass in a very traditional jazz band style and replace it with a synth bass then that underscores that it is the user that has the problem not the MS.
To use a synth bass in place of an acoustic bass, it depends on the type of style, the type of synth bass that would be used to replace the original bass, the other sounds in the style, the songs that would be played with the styles and other factors. All of which have nothing to do with the capabilities of the MS.


However, you are correct when you say that my post are “advance apologia for how bad these conversions are going to suck”.
I along with other persons understand how absurd the exercise is. I understand that there are to many variables (two of which I have mentioned in prier post) to where this exercise could even be remotely be beneficial.
If any one thinks otherwise, they are sadly mistaken.

Hi Diki
All your musings about how folks should be posting styles not talking about it, is a little like the pot calling the kettle black.
You have always said how much better the styles sound on your G70 then the MS, yet you have never posted any, you just point users who ask to professionally produced and recorded demos, (On multi-thousand pound recording rigs) or send them over to the Roland forum so that they can hear the style totally smothered by your vocals, thus making comparisons a nonsense.

Post the superior G70 styles of yours, specifying the style used, the variations, intro's used, (Including what order) and the style chord sequence used, (Include details on the chord recognition system being used) then record it on your G70, and convert it to a 256 'MP3, (With no tweaking of the original recording or MP3) and post it on the SZ site. That way true comparison can be made. (Ian says he is happy to do it, as I am sure are others, are You?)
Regards

Bill

Seems to me that the MS only gets into trouble when it's FANS (owners and non-owners) try to promote it's talents as a 'superior' ARRANGER while it's MANUFATURER has said (at least, recently) that this is merely a 'secondary feature'; a side benefit of it's 'open architecture'. Seems to me that comparing it to a TOTL DEDICATED arranger is like comparing a laptop computer to a dedicated controller for your house's security system. Sure, the laptop can do it (along with many other functions), but will it be as easy to program, have all the built-in safeguards and backups. Can we add more sensors without screwing up the programming, will the program still run when the 'generic' OS is upgraded. But mostly, how much does that powerful laptop cost compared to the dedicated controller (which most will concede, does a better job with that specific task).

I think we should just concede that the MS is probably never going to be able to compete with an instrument whose every atom is dedicated to one purpose, arranger style play. We should also concede that it (the MS) is probably infinitely superior as an integrated VST/VSTi player with (probably) better filters, ad/da converters, clocks, preamps, etc., than the average synth, workstation, or arranger kb, along with the resources necessary to host more sophisticated sequencers, samplers, audio recorders, etc., than the usual 'closed system' keyboard.

I think that GOOD or BAD in the keyboard world has a lot to do with the intended task and how well it performs THAT task. JMO.

chas

You got to be kidding to the Genesys. How long have you been on this forum ? If Dom in his numerous guises has never said that the MS will sound better than any closed arranger or that it could play converted styles better than the original because of the superior sounds then he has absolutely implied it ! I cant be bothered to search the forum to show you as i know Dom under liontracs and various other names has in the past deleted his posts but he has participated in this thread.

How come he has never said

"sorry chaps ....i never said that the MS could produce converted styles better than the original they came from....sorry for the misunderstanding guys !"

Your post is priceless !

No, Dom is just sitting on the sidelines hoping somebody will be able to uphold the claims that he for the last 7 years has either made outright or implied but failed to do !!

I just want to add thati hope noone feels under too much pressure in this test. I realise it was unfair to put James or Dennis under this kind of scrutiny but i am really grateful for your input and have maximum respect for what you are doing for us

Agree. Except I would add that from the MS perspective it is possible for the MS to compete with a TOTL arranger but that is not the major feature of the MS and its arranger ability is not a function of the MS but a function of the user.

For example, the PSR S910 has the ability to compete with the Korg PA2x pro but that is not the major feature and for it to compete with the Korg PA 2x pro, it depends on the user.

Spalding... are you also so frustrated like Diki??
Incredible..now we have two Diki on board..

Diki, you seriously have to start reading whats being posted and not just switching off after a few lines. I never said anything like that at all.

I've stated quite clearly I have no interest in trying to get the Mediastation to sound identical or even remotely close to some other closed arranger and that I won't be doing any A & B tests.

I've even been writing my own computer program which I will release for free that allows anyone to assemble, modify and replace data in GM banks quickly and easily from their PC. You can even see a preview of it on the Lionstracs section, it's called LSPC Gen. I've been doing this because I've also converted Bandstand into Giga format and I want to create my own mega GM bank. All of which has been said on the forum a few times at this point so my plans have always been known by people actually reading what's being posted.

At no point did I say or even remotely suggest anything about cloning keyboards to make the mediastation sound like them.

Someone said something about mimic only working on an open labs keyboard and I simply pointed out that the software was by no means unique and that PC alternatives have existed for years and that I had one of these programs.

Not that your probably even reading this post right now either. Probably just switched off after the first few lines as always.

James.

Here you are right..
In fact 7 years ago I was working with...let me think...windows3.1 or windows 98??
Ouch..now finally after 7 years with windows Vista we have fixed all and all is working..
Ah..no...sorry..now give Windows 7..
why on windows 7 still 90% of the Vst are not working fine?
Microsoft is comtinue fix his ....OS, like we are here to continue fix and add new features ..

Well at least Dom has been able to keep his sense of humor. I have to admit, I'm partial to people with a good sense of humor. Too many people take themselves way too seriously. Trust me, only a very tiny percentage of the population is listening to you.



chas



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-28-2010).]

To get a style with megavoices working over on the Mediastation, you need to create an exact copy of the megavoice and use it on mediastation..

Megavoices are so specific in their structure that they can only be replaced by an exact copy of the Megavoice.. or an improved version of it (which takes huge amounts of time).

I beleive tough that Wersi allready supports the megavoice styles, so it can be done. But for now they are unavailable for Mediastation yet.

So its unfair to do a comparison with a style containing a megavoice untill someone copied these megavoices to Mediastation and shared them.

So for a fair comparison, you guys need to use a style that does not use megavoices, and substitute the sounds with the best giga sounds avialable (or vst's) Otherwise its unfair.

And to Diki: one does not have to copy all T3 sounds, just the megavoices (because of their specific structure) because we both know you can't replace it with a normall instrument because the midi/style track is very specifick for a megavoice.


So untill someone copies/creates the megavoices to gigasamples you just can't use Yamaha styles with megavoices on Mediastation.