http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbWULu5_nXI&a=ONKMBgjFIuI&playnext_from=ML

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8jJ1ORIOes&feature=fvw

That was great, posting those two vids together. Sure makes you reflect on the passage of time. Those of us still playing music from that era (I'm one of those ) should use this as a reality check in case we still think we can pull that cute chick at the bar the way we did 40 years ago. Oh well, at least we survived it (the era).

It IS good, though, to see that classics DO stand the test of time (B3/song) and sound just as good now as they did then. Sure, samples and loops are good, but if you want that sphincter-tightening experience, give me a vintage B3 with a beat-up leslie any day.

Thanks for the post. There is something eerily reflective about watching the two of them in sequence.

chas

A year ago Procul Harum played here in the neighborhood in a small theater,with this show
It was a Great performance, and this is realy
the best ballad ever made with a Hammond.
(second is Homburg :-)

Impuls

Original studio cut ws done on an L-100.

Use of a B-3 is a different sound, due to several key differences in tone generator and chorus circuits, among other things.

Just like Booker T's famous "Green Onions" -- in which the studio cut was played on an M-3 "schpinette" organ, with no leslie, they used the built in chorus vibrato and mic'd the little internal 12" speaker. Booker later toured famously using a fullsize B3 and at least one Leslie, though.

The Hammond Organ player and enthusiast must develop "golden ears" in order to be able to hear the subtle differences. But like the picture with the hidden elephant in it, once you know those differences, whether you find them yourself or they are pointed out to you, once you know them, they stand out clearly.

I think the key ingredient to a great organ part is *animation* - the constant *changing* of parameters as the tune progresses, change voicing, change chorusing, spinup, spindown, change something, throughout. This is where the average MIDI keyboardist falls flat. Simply selecting a static MIDi patch of one Hammond Organ sound does not cut it in the animation department that is so critical to the emotion of the tonewheel organ.


--Mac

Throw in 'use of an expression pedal' and you've nailed it. That also explains why the 'real thing' will never go away, no matter how good that single midi patch (or sample) is. I don't care if you're Jimmy Smith, you can't play an all-purpose synth (arranger, workstation, whatever) like a 'B3' (I use the term 'B3' symbolically).

chas

Cool videos guys. No keyboard, even my XK3 can replicate a B3. The XK3 sounds great to my ears and I've been playing, buying and selling Hammonds for forty years. I think the big thing is the logistics of actually sitting behind the full console. Nothing like it but I do like the bass on the XK3 much better.

BTW all you Hammond heads I still have one B3 left. My own baby in mint Cherrywood. Give me shout if interested. It may be going to Florida soon. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/icons/icon12.gif

Bill in NJ

Back in the 60's I had a L100 & then a B3 to gig, cut my 147 in half also to fit in the station wagon...my back still hurts .... but when I listen to this song and many others of the period it gives me a chill and warm feeling at the same time to hear that Hammond sound..I also feel it when I listened to the BEATLES guitars....you know I'm so lucky to have grown up in the 50's/60's and have the opportunity to embrace the magic of music. Sometimes I think back of the simplicity of the music & gear need to make great songs and have such a unique sound without using all the mumbo-jumbo high-tech equipment we have today......sometimes I say to myself .."do we really need all this new stuff" ? The one kool thing for us who grew up then is being able to "COMPARE" the past & present in music to put it all together with what we produce today.....in years to come when we are gone these youngsters will not have that musical real life 50/60's experience other then maybe You Tube etc....

DNJ

I agree. I just retired from teaching Middle School and used to tell the kids I do wish I was young again but I'm glad I grew up when I did. Live music everywhere, being played by real musicians, the music scene was so much more exciting and innovative. I get sick today every time I see a bar or restaurant advertise "Live DJ' What other kind could they have?? When it says dead one I'm going in !!!
Only us poor keyborad players had to be stuck with heavy ill designed for touring instruments. Hammond organs and leslies, Fender Rhoades, Heavy amps and PA's. But damn we had fun.
A guitar player back then could get his Strat or Les Paul with his Fender Twin and still have the best possible rig today. And it would have tripled in value. We, or at least I know I have, have gone thru how many of the newest and greatest keyboards at big expense just to keep up .
Wish I could just gig with my Hammond w/bass pedals, a piano, and a real kick a** drummer.

Bill in NJ

Bill, you CAN. 'JUST DO IT'. You've probably got all your bills paid and you've got that sweet retirement income (Pension + SSI + Medicare = 'play any gig I want, turn down any I don't want, and play with live musicians again). One suggestion, though. Reduce the weight of that B3 + Leslie down to 34 lbs and get a Nord C2 . Add a Traynor K4 amp and a guitar player and voila!, you're in business (okay, 60's and 70's business ). Hey, Capt. Russ and I will come to see you .

Keep that B3 warm, I may hit the lottery.

chas

B3 forever, baby.

Bill great post ...you brought a tear to my eye ...but we're not dead yet....keep the flame alive, record lots of your songs so that maybe one day your grandkids and their kids will have something to remember!

When you said "Wish I could just gig with my Hammond w/bass pedals, a piano, and a real kick a** drummer." right away I thought of Lee Michaels, Hammond & Frosty, Drums...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgR2Q-MD-Q&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NvZEXZTqLg

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-21-2010).]

hey Fran & I will join you guys also

Warts and all, I really appreciate the chance to gig with my old B-3. I'm lucky...it "lives" at a local country club, with a 145, 147 RV and a Suitcase Rhodes. I use it for a hard core group of jazz nuts twice a month. Even better, one of the waiters is a pastor/M-100 player. He and his son move the instruments out of storage...even turn them on. I simply show up and play. They even break things down and put them back in the storage area while I head to the next gig. I have an old C-3 that I'm restoring and a little 1949 M that I've got entirely too much money into.

Maintenance is horrible, from a frequency and expense standpoint. But, they're GREAT!

Russ (old school) Lay

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 04-21-2010).]

I put on one heckuva convincing performance with the Native Instruments B4 II and two 61 note controllers hooked up to the laptop.

And I leave the Roll-R-Kari at home, and my back in great shape.

Go to the B3 gig in a Ford Taurus, man.

--Mac

Th B4 is a cute little toy to have on your home computer, but it shouldn't even be mentioned among such illustrious instruments and artists

mac sounds great any chance on hearing that combination with teh B4?

The B4 was always the most highly rated amongst B3 aficionados, (As well as the studio standard) with most having it available on their computers for when a B3 is not available, however I personally prefer the VB3, http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=24 which as the B4 is no longer available (Except for Wersi owners (Although for how much longer is unknown) is really the only one.

Here is the demo of B4II http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/media-center/?content=649 just type B4 into the search box.

Enjoy

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 04-22-2010).]

I don't know any Hammond Players (and I know alot) that will use Native instruments B4 professionaly. You either play an original Tonewheel console, New B3, XK3c or a KeyB. There simply are no other good alternatives for someone serious about playing a Hammond.

I don't know many players who are more serious about their hammonds than I.

Still keep the payments up on my storage garage full of B's, C's & A-100s, now that we are in the little apartment and its just me and the missus, the little "baby b" M-101 and a coffee-table Leslie are in the livingroom.

Now, of course, the B4-II is NOT exactly the same as having a true Hammond onstage. It is simply the closest I've been able to come in duplicating the sound without the real McCoy.

There is one certain thing that the MIDI controller keyboards will NOT do, and that is in the multiple contact keyboard buss tricks department.

I use a MIDI Controller Pedal connected as MIDI Expression CC11 to exactly duplicate what the original Hammond Expression Pedal brings to the game.

Modwheel spins the Leslie effect up, down and I use a controller button to turn Leslie effect comnpletely off to duplicate the older non-chorale Leslie sound when playing the Jimmy Smith type stuff. For Rockband covers, I use the chorale, of course.

I also run full stereo keyboard amplification and careful placement of my keyboard speakers on the soundstage in order to recreate the leslie sim more correctly. The keyboard amp is actually a small PA of its own right and the two channesl are always mounted on poles, usually directly behind me, facing outwards and kind of sideways to the stagefront. Close together. That's because of the darned horns. They focus the sound a bit too much and project it a bit too far. At one time I lugged a linear array set of cabs and that wasn't as large of a problem.

There is one thing about simulators of any kind that I try to get across to people, but most don't seem to understand what I'm saying. It is this: One must first have plenty of experience with playing the REAL THING before attempting to use any kind of simulator to imitate it.

The same applies to my digital guitar amp/speaker/effect units.

I spent a lot of time shaking my system down, practicing with the full setup in order to find out what NOT to attempt. If I cannot get the darned thing to duplicate what the real mccoy does, then I don't attempt that onstage.

There are also certain things that a simulator can do in the way of sounds that the real thing does not do. It is important to know and understand that situation.

Since this is an internet forum and they are full of people who read something and take it totally out of context, the last thing I'll say here is that "there is nothing like the real thing, baby". In the studio, I would want the real thing. Because, in the studio, we are faced with a different situation entirely. A permanent record with your name on it. That said, there have been some cases where my B4 setup has been used in studio work. It has fooled many a set of golden ears, too.

At a certain point, it is not what the simulator is, it is what the player knows and can do with it.


--Mac

TWD, you are starting to sound a little TOO purist to be hanging around an arranger forum!

Let's face it... there isn't ONE sound in an arranger, or let's be fair, any other modern keyboard, NOT ONE that is EXACTLY like the real thing. NOT ONE. You can't pick and choose what you consider acceptable. If nothing but the real deal will suffice on organ, neither will playing a sampled piano, using sampled drums or bass will, either. You want to go ahead and tell us that no REAL musician would ever play with an arranger, either..?

Let's face it, were we ever to play to audiences that were as picky as these mythological organ 'purists', we would get booed out of the building the first note we played! Me, I'd be happy to go and see Joey DeFrancesco or any organist worth his salt play on any clone and sim out there. But that's maybe because I'm more interested in what he PLAYS than in what he plays on. But then again, I'm not an organ dealer, so maybe it's not quite as important to me..

say it isn't so!!! Your right..i am turning into an old fart! I blame this place,I was young and virile before I came here!

Great post, Mac.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

cgiles and DNJ

A few year ago I did just do it. Organ/piano, sax and drums. Rehearsed every Tues. night . Blues, some jazz and old school rock. Played a few gigs but it just dead ended. There are so few places to play and so many bands, DJ's, and now singers with Kareoke backing or even worse Kareoke acts with the drunks singing all night. My good friend doesn't even bring his keyboard anymore to his regular Thursday night gig. Just and Ipod and PA. Sings the first set to the dinner crowd and then DJ's for the bar crowd the rest of the night. I'd play (and we did) for next to nothing but there's just no where to go.

Loved the Lee Michael's video. Had some of his albums. I could spend all day looking at those old videos. Billy Joel did a simiiar thing with his drummer Jon Small. B3 thru a wah- wah and fuzz box. Album was called "Attila" I still have it. Still 10X more soul and excitement than todays Hip Hop garbage. Was watching a rerun of the "Soprano's" the other day and there was a scene where the family is watching the "Young Rascals" on TV, probably the Sullivan show.. Made me smile. Felix was the last one to play my gigging B3 before I sold it to a church.

Bill in NJ

Weren't we ALL
t.

Bill there is plenty of work here in NJ for everyone....you just have to reinvent & adapt yourself and your music and gear it to the right target audience.

Good Luck

Bebop Here,
I don't have anything to add to this discussion because it would just be more of the same with my built in prejudices from gigging for more years then a lot of musicians have yet lived.
Here is what I would like to say. I really enjoyed this discussion and I am sure most who read it did.
Here is what I would like to see.
I would love to read the bio's of all the long time musicians that have been through the wars. We have so much in common and yet we are all so different because even though we lived through the same eras, we all have different life experiences. I would love to read the bios of those who posted in this thread and all the other representative musicians in this forum.
What say y'all. Let's just do it. Who would start?
Bebop

Bill this maybe would be better in a seperate posting topic don't you think?

YUP Donnie I think you are right. I will start a new thread ALSO but leave this one here because a lot of people are posting in this thread. I hope they will go to the new thread and post their bios, so we can all reminisce those good old days
thanks Dude. I am especially interested in your Bio and I love your work and play it often.
Bebop

thats is such a funky sound! Not many Hammond players have been there, but if you can get it right its a very cool sound. I often think new Hammonds should have the effect built in.

Rabbit from the Who uses a Wha pedal too.

I have a pre-amp pedal to use with my 147RV. For years. I played a 335 thru it, and often used a wah. Once, I played my C-1 thru the rig with a wah. Pretty cool! Of course, playing any old style Hammond with the 13 pin connector would be a challenge, wah or any pedal-wise, since the pre-amp was in the Leslie and there were no 1/4" connections.

It was done; i just don't know how!


Russ

Adding an effects send and return to the AO28 preamp in the B and C is pretty easy, actually considered a standard procedure nowadays.