Well we've already been replaced by Arranger KB's......how much automatic playing, computer, DJ, KJ, Vocal harmonizers, backing tracks, etc, etc, do we need.....we have been reduced to "Musical Operators" more then anything else anyway.....verses years ago...people in their 45-80 year range are the last breed to have both musical eras in their life.....ALL LIVE MUSIC....& now the ELECTRONIC, COMPUTER, Age....when we're gone it's OVER!!! sadly.

Does no one force anyone to play with all the above mentioned tools/programs. So why even use them?

There are plenty of video clips on youtube.com that show plenty of young talent. Talent we can only dream of.

There will be many other musical eras to come, in our lifetime and when we're long gone.



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Bo pen nyang.

My wife says I could be replaced by a robot. I told her this was fine just as long as the SOB could take care of 3 acres of lawn, mulch 8 gardens, repair the plumbing, maintain the air conditioner, maintain the heating system, clean, cook, wash clothes, drive the car, play music, sing, do the banking, take out the trash, baby sit our grandson, and 8 Jillian other things I do around here. Hmmmm! Maybe she just needs a young guy with lots of money.

Cheers,

Gary

Wow! That was interesting. I know how you feel, Donny, but I think Taike is right. Threre really is a lot of young talent out there. Go to any college or university with a decent music program and check out the talent. Ask about the jazz program. You'll usually find some young dudes that can really, REALLY, play. Because they don't show up in the local bar band or nursing home circuit, doesn't mean that they're not out there. I think these guys end up in show bands, teaching HS music, studios, etc. Anywhere you need someone that run the chart once and do the gig.

I have a aviation buddy that owns an architectural firm here in Atlanta, that is on the board of GA Tech. I'm going to see if he can get me a VIP tour of the music dept. (and check out this Robot in person ). You guys say the word and I'll short the little sucker out .

chas

Gary, does she have a lot of money...?

A lot more than I have--and guess who has the big insurance policy on who!

Cheers,

Gary

Chas you may be partially correct but even if there is much talent out there & we all know there is ...if people don't get to hear much of it that's a sin. BUT let's face it modern technology in music is as BAD as it is GOOD wouldn't you say?

Donny, you've put your finger on a huge part of the problem. The public, the average American between the ages of 20 and 50, has very few choices if they want to hear 'live' music. The average young person's idea of 'live music' is a mega-thousand-attendee rock concert. Most of the small venues that used to provide the main outlets for live music are becoming few and far between. They have been replaced by Karaoke, DJ's, KJ's, etc. Even OMB's, although 'live' (sort of), are usually replacements for what used to be trios and quartets. Most clubs won't even spring for one extra person which kills many opportunities for non-singing OMB's that need a singer to make the gig work.

It's a sad state of affairs and a horrible trend that seems to be getting worse. Around here, even old established clubs can't maintain the genre' full time. Jazz clubs will usually have one or more nights for R&B or Rock, C&W bars and clubs will have Blues or Southern Rock nights. It's the only way they can stay in business. I guess the upside is that it's still 'live music', but just goes to show what clubs have to do to keep live music on the schedule. I don't know this for sure, but I get the sense that this condition does not extend to Europe. I'd like to know, if some of our European members would like to chime in.

chas

lol.. It's like a cross between Lela and Bender

So aren't OMBs (arranger keyboard players) part of the problem rather than the solution? After all, a regular live-band usually consists of a vocalist, a guitarist, a bassist and a drummer. Now an arranger keyboard player enters the scene and with the help of technological crutches takes replaces the entire band. That's like three or more jobs down the drain. Yet they're likely the most adamant complainers about DJs taking over their gigs.

I agree with your assessment, Chas. It's the (almighty) dollar that counts.

So, do OMB players (arranger keyboard players) constitute "live" music? In my opinion, NO!

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

Yes OMB or even Organ players eg: Bret Whales let's say that play foot bass, auto rhythms, accompaniments & audio backings represent the same problems regarding taking the place of live musicians...let's face it, it's been roughly 30-35 years of modern technology as we know it and it has changed our lives, our music, etc, forever. Complaining about it now is fruitless & I highly doubt it will return to the way it was for so many reasons.It's just too late now. Embrace what you love to play and enjoy your style of music. But to stay on topic, the "Human Element" must always prevail vs a Robot at this stage of the game I'd say.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-30-2010).]

My sax player is a huge big band buff. He showed us a few NYE's ago a photo of the contract for the Glen Miller band on NYE back in the late 30's. The total amount due was close to $1200.00 for 4 hours work at a premier hotel in NYC.

My point is that costs have risen in a way that incomes haven't matched, so yes, the financial aspect of the music business is a major part of the landscape today.

Back in the 30's & 40's not everyone even had record players. So the prevailing custom was to attend performances in person. Look how far we've come. Digital mp3 files are found on our car stereos, cell phones, etc. and of course the mp3 players themselves. They're so small they fit in a shirt pocket.

As a people we no longer congregate in the way our parents did. Those of us who work animal clubs see it every time we walk through the doors. The clubs used to be packed through the 50's and 60's are now happy if their bar is full for a few hours a week. Live entertainment has gone from a high of 3-4 nights a week at these clubs to maybe 1-2 a week today. In ten years I think a third of these type clubs will be gone, in twenty, probably half of them.

Technology keeps changing how we experience life and music isn't immune to it. Combine that with economic factors and you bet its a different ballgame. I don't think we're nearly as a "social" people anymore. Most couples I know are hunkered down with their kids, jobs and families and don't have the wide range of socialized activities our parents did. People don't even attend Church in the same numbers they did 30-40 years ago. Things have changed and will keep changing.

Those who want to experience live music will be able to find it in most urban centers without too much difficulty. Not in the same way the previous generation did, but in a way that more suited to our current times. I wouldn't call it the death of live music but the nature of how we access our music will never be what it used to be.

...and in 30 years, it'll be pretty different than it is today.



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Bill in Dayton

Ever feel like a buggy whip maker?

Thing is, no robot will ever replace us... the robot is WAY too expensive. While OMB's and OMB/DJ's are willing to go out and play for peanuts, while karaoke gets the audience to entertain themselves for free, who's going to pay a fortune for a robot?

Thing is, in any recession (and don't let them kid you it's over, it's only over for the execs and Wall St.) discretionary spending is always the first thing to be cut. This is going to be a few more years, I fear. Anyway, how many of US are actually playing anything the kids WANT to hear? You can't blame the live venues for passing us by if we don't play anything from this millennium!

And looking to a jazz program as some kind of indicator of how healthy the scene is is absurd. All they are studying is how to remain unemployed! Where are all the jazz clubs for them to play in? You know, the ones where experienced older players can't find gigs any more?

But all this comes and goes in cycles. I remember when disco in the 70's had us all scurrying... It got better. It will get better again. You just have to ride it out.

What I said:

"There really is a lot of young talent out there. Go to any college or university with a decent music program and check out the talent. Ask about the jazz program. You'll usually find some young dudes that can really, REALLY, play"

What YOU said in response:




Huh!

I was just trying to say that, despite the advances in technology, there are still lots of young people who know how to play real instruments (and play them well). Whether or not there is a venue for them to play in is a different story. I even stated that most of them will NOT end up as 'starving musicians' in the normal playing venues (and WE, the lesser talented and lesser trained, should be thankful for it ).

chas

The problem with that theory is that robots will get cheaper and smarter, they also don�t have to be paid, eat, (Apart from a bit of electric) will do exactly what their owners want, will be able to play anything, can be made to look like anything the owner wants and also doesn�t argue or have off days, (Not forgetting a break is also not required) and will pay for itself. (Whereas the owner will always be paying for a musician, and yet still won�t end up owning him)

Your buggy whip analogy is a good one, just be careful you don�t fall into the same trap. (I am sure the buggy whip manufacture also said the buggy whip will never be replaced)

Bill

I don't have to go to a college to see and hear talented young people - I have done it ay my grandchildren's grade schools ... and they do not go to 'upper class' public or private schools ... they are in public schools in middle income neighborhoods - in fact the school in NY pulls from a wider diverse area ...
I have posted it here previously ... the teachers - and parents - do an excellent job with the music and performing arts programs ... the 5th grade bands even play jazz ...


Yes, OMB add to the problem ... but what are we to do - say we won't play unless we can have 2-3-or 4 others playing with us??? ... how much work is that going to get us? ...
And since when DIDN'T the almighty dollar count?!? ... Is there any of us that hasn't -at least at some time in our life - changed from one job/gig to another because the salary was better??? ...

Speaking of salaries, Bill, I don't think I would be too far off by saying that in the 30's $1200.00 might have been a half year's salary for most people ...

t.
PS ... I get a kick when I see a club advertise "LIVE DJ" ... at least it's not a robot ...




[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 04-30-2010).]

BTW ... weren't piano players replaced by the player piano and the disklavier ages ago???
t.

Don't forget Tony his band had at least 20 people in it. Everybody took home $60.00 or so for NYE in a snazzy hotel in NYC. Miller probably took a leaders fee, plus the arrangers/piano players usually got more, plus soloists...Some of those guys probably wound up with 30 bucks in their pockets, lol...

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 04-30-2010).]

I have a friend who was hired for a big band job by a well known orchestra. He's a Peabody trained pianist who can play more songs than most of the Zone's members combined. The pay for four hours, plus rehearsal, was $175. Total time was about 6 to 7 hours. That was only a few years ago. Break that down to an hourly wage and you're talking $25 an hour. The way I figure, that's chump change in this business. The lowest paying nursing homes in the U.S. pay at least twice that, and most pay $100 or more for an OMB.

The pay scale in much of the nation for OMBs and duos in upscale, mid-Atlantic restaurants is about $100 to $150 for a 4-hour gig. Ain't much better than being a band-member in a big band.

As for the recession/depression (call it what you will), as Diki said, it ain't over until the fat lady sings. Lots of performers are getting hammered, including my buddy the piano player. I've been trying to convince him to get into the NH biz for several years and he wouldn't budge from his restaurant job. Now he doesn't have a job. And, the NH biz is booming. I get calls every day from folks wanting me to perform, and I'm trying to cut back. Forget the robot, as stated above, they're too expensive. OMB performers are at the top of the heap these days when it comes to income. I hope it stays that way for a couple more years until the youngsters get into the game and displace me. Those kids are really talented!

Gary

I guess sometimes it is NOT about the 'almighty dollar' ...
t.

So do you guys have it what it takes to be a good DJ? You do make them sound like a talentless bunch.
http://www.internetdj.com/article.php?storyid=229
http://www.def-logic.com/articles/is_dj_artist.html

Of course, there're always the naysayers who think they can do anything until they actually have to prove themselves.
http://www.viceland.com/int/v11n5/htdocs/hey.php

As for the "almighty dollar" ... how many of you are willing to work for $1 to $3 an hour? That's what I did for two years, just to be with my family and to experience life in my wife's country.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 04-30-2010).]