Here we go, just follow this link, it is explained in there: http://www.basaristudios.com/comparisons.html


[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 04-30-2010).]

Sounds very real. Very live like.
Nice one....!!!!

Regards
James.

maybe some here wil see, what better sounds can do.

Yes, it does sound better than the Korg itself, and what we've heard from the Mediastion so far.

Not bad at all.

Thanks for sharing, Nedim.

Ian

I'd say it sound fine, but is it really worth all the work to edit, reassign, purchase programs, etc, etc, top get something "maybe" (very subjective) a slightly better to some ears sound verses the original....what am I missing?

Sound Ok but I miss the typical Korg sound the reason I bought a Korg.

Hello;

Good job Nedim. Please continue with your experiment. I am anxious to see what the converted Tyros 2 mega styles sound like.

DNJ--I suppose the purpose was to show that it can be done. Also it would allow all the Styles from Yamaha, roland, audya, korg to be played on one keyboard if so desired. Since styles are important to arranger players I beleive that this is a large benefit.

Cheers;
BN

Any chance of recording the original Korg style and doing a side by side comparison? I mean, that's what this is all about, isn't it? Is one better than the other?

Me, I was concerned about the fact that each time you hit a fill, there was a lurch or glitch in the sound. Is that usual?

If users of the various keyboards could post a style recording, specifying the style used, the variations, intro's used, (Including what order) and the style chord sequence used, (Include details on the chord recognition system being used) then record it on their instrument and convert it to a 256 'MP3, (With no tweaking of the original recording or MP3) then post a link to it on the SZ site, then as Diki says, a true comparison can be made. (Remember it is just the style we are interested in, with no right hand or anything added)

Bill

BTW: I did mention this in another thread, (now closed) but it appears to have got lost within all the posts.

Diki, i will record the original tonight or tomorow morning.
You are right, dumb me, i should've recorded an mp3 from original style.

thats a usuable style for sure Nedim. Thanks for this. I look forward to the demo of the original too.

Do you mind if i ask you did you do all the changes to all four variations or just the one variation.

so far only you and james have provided us with examples of converted styles using a vst as the core sound engine. I have no problems with what i have heard so far and they are a miilion times better than the demos i have heard in the past so well done. Whether that sounds better than the original hopefully will be settled perhaps tommorrow ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.yousendit.com/download/OHo1OU1ha0RRYTlFQlE9PQ

Here is Bandstand VST playing a converted Korg style on MediaStation..

I have yet to even set up my MS with the new OS, and graphihcs card. Hence no demos from me as yet.

It was why I said way back in the huge deleted thread it would take a couple of weeks, as I had to 1.actually get my old MS back (which had a trashed OS by the way)...
2.Get the new graphics card from Dom (OS 4 will nto run without it)
3. obtain the licence key for Live Arranger so there would be no restrictions on saving and editing.
4. Re-setup the MS with all teh Giga GM library, and the VSTi's
5. Then start recording and editing the chosen style demos.

But having seen that Nedim has provided a demonstration of the power of VST's, albeit on a PC and not on the actual Media Station..There is probably no furhter need for me to do so.

Nedims work properly demos what is possible I think. And should give everyone the info they need.

Dennis

Hi Spalding
How do you define better?

Do you ask a Korg Player?
Do you ask a Roland Player?
Do you ask a Yamaha Player?
Do you ask a Jazz Musician?
Do you ask a Classical Musician?
Do you ask a Big Band Musician?
Etc. etc.

If you ask any of the above, you will get different answers (For and against)

Which brings us back to the original question, how do you define better?

Bill

This is probably a dumb question, but wouldn't the audio interface have some influence on the quality of the sound? And things like cpu and buss speed have and influence on latency and (potential) playback glitches? My question is, is comparing a laptop/audio interface to a Mediastation really an apples to apples comparison. I would think that all the components that make up the final sound product would have to be equal for a valid comparison. Correct me if I'm wrong.

chas

Chas, of course you make sense more then anyone but all the sound quality comparison in todays audio cards is ireleveant and theoretical only. I own at least 4 different high end audio cards, from a 3000$ Apogee Rosetta 800 to a basic 300$ Emu 1616m. I know I am not dumb but used in a day by day applications there is no difference between the two in sound. Latency also, cannot play a part in the sonical qualitY of the sound itself except being early or late. As I know of the MS has high quality audio interface which won't really make any difference how Goliath sounds thru my Audio card or thru MS. In this example I am using a 6000$ Mac G5 but that still has nothing to do with sound quality...it all deppends on the actual sound. I bet you if this example was hear and recorded thru Rosetta or Emu none of you can tell the difference and I stand on it.

The soundcard is about the LAST thing anyone should worry about. Naff samples playing a naff style through the world's best D/A converter will still sound like poo... And vice versa!

The thing is, a 'better' or not judgment would have to be based on a consensus. After all, before being Roland players, or Yamaha players, or Korg players, or MS players, we are ALL musicians first and foremost. We OUGHT to be able to tell what sounds convincing, what sounds lively, what sounds 'real' without clouding it with partisanship for one brand or another. I think I have ALWAYS tried to make a fair and balanced judgment about whatever I hear, even if it doesn't jibe with long-held beliefs... After all, I would be passing up on an opportunity to sound better myself if I let my choice of CURRENT equipment dictate what I would use in the future

That being said, though, despite the INDIVIDUAL sounds of an open arranger, and often the RH sounds too, sounding VERY good, it's when you put them all together, and try to make a coherent piece of music, especially with a style not designed for those sounds you ARE using, that it often all falls apart. But rest assured, WHEN I hear it all come together, I will be the first to say how good it is! (I did it for the Audya, you'll remember, despite my reservations about it).

You see, I don't WANT it to sound just like a Roland (or Korg, or Yamaha). What's the point in that? Already got one... But what it needs to do is have the same degree of cohesiveness that a closed arranger has. Like them or hate them, you can't deny that even OOTB, the styles hang together well. Nothing sounds tacked on, out of place, a fish out of water, whatever. They are VERY carefully designed to work together, perhaps even at the EXPENSE of individual sounds standing out... After all, that is what the art of mixing is all about. It has to gel, it has to blend. If one sound is a great sound, but sticks out of the mix like a sore thumb, it is, despite sounding good, just plain WRONG.

IMO, there are VERY few, if any VSTi sample sets that are as carefully designed as an entire gestalt, as a 'ready to go' complete soundset that you have to do little to make them all blend together. Wish there was, to be honest. It would make my work a lot easier! But so far, I really have heard nothing that is along the lines of a closed arranger (or the old Sound Canvas series modules) in the degree of readiness to use.

You see, some of us may have the skill to mix an entire album, but many of us don't! And asking us to take a soundset not designed as one unit, and then voice it and EQ it and compress it and bed it all together, just so we can get something that comes that way OOTB in a closed arranger is honestly asking a LOT...

But be assured that, when I hear it (IF I hear it), what I use now won't have the SLIGHTEST influence on whether I like it or not. All it has to do is what it has claimed to do all along... Sound WAY better than a closed arranger. As a whole, though, not individual sounds.

Looking forward to hearing it...

Here we go, just follow this link, it is explained in there: http://www.basaristudios.com/comparisons.html

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 04-30-2010).]

By the way Diki the glitches are gone in the new Demos and they werent in the fills but it
was few times all over, due to my stupidity, i was working in 128 Buffer and forgot it like
that when exporting which caused it.

Pretty good translation. As you said, sound balance could be tweaked to be better, but then again, if you are comparing apples to apples, it's possible to tweak the Korg to sound better, too, I guess!

But, in fairness, this isn't much of a challenge. A VERY simple style, no Intros or Endings (or if there was an ending, the MS sounded kind of abrupt), and not really a style that presents much of a challenge. How about a Korg style that uses its' Guitar Mode, and some of the DNC voices? Some of those really cool smooth jazz styles, the triphoppy, acid jazz kinds of things?

What was that style called, BTW? Perhaps I have a translation of it, and can post a G70 version? Oh, and, can you do us a favor? I'm not trying to be nasty, just want to hear the style properly, but your timing on the lead line was a bit rough, it made checking whether the style was tracking well a lot harder. Can you do future stuff with NO lead sound at all? Let's just stick to the style all by itself, take the RH out of the equation.

As I said, a good translation, I'm not going to deny it. But hardly head and shoulders above the Korg version (if it was recorded as hot, and the drums tweaked a bit louder, it would have compared quite well, IMO), and this is on a style that can only charitably be called simplistic..! But look into the PA800's style library, and I'm sure you can find something that shows off the Korg better...

You are right, i agree with you again, it is a very simple style. This is only Apples to Apples
comparison, honestly there is difference, i hear it right away at the first second...and also
you are right again, Korg's styles can be tweaked, my own sound better then the factory.
But keep in mind...what if we actually tweaked the Style on Goliath? I know for my own taste
Korg would dissapear UNDERWATER many times in front of Goliath. Now, going back to
DNC and GM as i said in the other post, GM wont translate as it is but i can turn only that
track into a MIDI, bring it back to the same style on MediaStation, run it thru a better Guitar
and Voila! As for DNC no talks at all...no need to translated...we can just get a 4-5 Gigs
Strings or any sound from a Big Library with its own DNC and again Voila! Right?
DNC Translated, i think its fair enough. Remember, my point on this is not exact as yours.
Your point is how can it be easier and with no work, mine is how can i sound better then
you (not litereally) meaning, i am after the quality, no matter of time and work (which we
both know its almost the same or less then translating from Korg to Roland). The RH was
there only for whatever reason, a better Piano i guess. Later on i will do a more complicated
Style and i already know the result will be the same as this, same timig of work and result.
Then after that i will do what gets me Horny...tweaking Korg's style but then tweaking it in
Goliath too...YAY! If one only pays a lil attention to the Snare and Toms in the Goliath MP3.



[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 05-01-2010).]

Well, for me, as a full time gigging player (in addition to the studio work), I'm afraid that time spent translating and tweaking is EVERYTHING. Which is why, to be honest, I actually use very few translations. They are generally more bother, timewise, than they are worth.

Sure, nice simple styles are a snap, but who wants to play nice simple styles? (I got plenty of those!) The more attention and detail put into the style in the first place to leverage the technology of the original keyboard, the very thing that makes you WANT to translate it, is also the very thing that makes the translation so hard to do. Sure, strip out all the hard stuff, translation is easier. But what you end up with is a shadow of its' original glory.

What would be a REAL test of the whole thing (and I know it's a lot to ask for) would be for you to pick perhaps the dozen absolute BEST, most groovy, jaw-droppingly fabulous styles in the PA800, with no regard to whether they are simple or not, and all of quite different sound. Some rock, some jazz, some modern alternative, whatever...

Now translate them into MS styles using VSTi's, and don't rest until they sound BETTER than the originals. Then let us know how long it really took you. That would give us a 'real world' set of figures to estimate for ourselves what translating our favorite style libraries would take.

You see, as I kind of keep pointing out to those that have actually had an MS for quite some while, but still don't feel confidant enough with their work to post any of it, for a working musician, it's no good that the MS COULD sound MUCH better than a closed arranger if it takes so long to actually get it there that you never get around to actually doing it. Some of them have had MS's for YEARS now, and STILL they won't post anything they are proud of, and those that do, well, let's just be charitable, and say better luck next time?

The whole POINT of the MS is to use it live. A lot of us already GOT VSTi rigs to do home and studio work on. But the MS is supposed to be gigged. And, in that case, it has to be able to be set up fast enough that someone steadily gigging actually has enough time to do it! Sooner or later, to convince us skeptics, someone is going to HAVE to show us how fast it can all be done, and not just on the easy styles..!

I wish I had enough time to be able to take my own sweet time getting it ready to gig. But unfortunately (or not!), I would rather be earning money playing, than NOT earning money programming...!

You make your own points too and you are right but whats the fun in just playing without tweaking.
I mean, everything takes time, one can have an MS for year and a half and gig on something else
as most of us usally do till we get it ready, i guess then the time was worth it.
Not necesarilly one has to sit down 6 hours a day to program an MS, do it once in a while.

And hearing lies the difference between having a closed arranger mind and an open arranger mind.
Makes no sense having an open arranger but still having the mindset of a closed arranger user.

A tool is a tool. Doesn't matter if it is closed or open if it doesn't do the JOB.

But if having a closed arranger mind means leaving yourself enough time to actually GIG (and maybe eat and sleep too ) then put me down as one of those...

There are people that like to tinker with cars, build them from scratch, love kit cars, and making the car is the entire purpose. Then there are people trying to GET SOMEWHERE...!

I get the impression that the open arranger mind is like the guy who is more concerned with building the car than driving it.

An open arranger is not that much different to a closed arranger as it relates to customizing it to your needs. Except that the open arranger gives you more options.


Some one may be able to take a converted style to a G70 use make-up tools and get a good sounding style in less than 15 minutes.
Another person could do the same thing and take 30 minutes and not have a good sounding result.

It all depends on the person.

Now it does not appear that if you play using styles 100% taking the MS from the box straight to the gig is not the intended use.


Even if you play using styles, I am sure everyone does something to customize a new arranger to their unique playing style and gig requirements.


Whether closed or open, one should be spending a few hours customizing the keyboard to his or her needs initially.
From there, whether to use an open or closed arranger depends on the skill level of the user.

You might be almost correct there...

But its more like this

Building the car
Driving the car
Finetuning the car
Driving the car
Improving the car
Driving the car
Improving the car
Driving the car
Updating the car
Driving the car...

Open arranger people do drive, and maybe even a lot. But they also like to play with the mechanics of their toy car.

But if you are dependant on your car for your work, constantly breking things down in your car to rebuild them might not be a good idea... You need atleast 2 cars to do this. As your first car should allways be fully operational.

I myself belong to the people (>90% of arranger players do) that don't gig, but just play at home, and for us it doesn't really matter if a keyboard is not working for 2 days (and a lot of time invested) as long as it improves continually.


But for for professional players and others dependent on their instruments, you really made a point there. Those people can't afford to play around to much with new feautures and need to have a working system every night...

So either they need 2 open Mediastations or Dom needs to implement a backup system that lets you store the whole system including all VSt's ans setting on an immage on an external hard disk... When things go wrong, you could allways store back the image, which should work rather quick for a USB3 device even if there are 100's of GB's data.

If Dom can implement this on MEdiastation, you might have helped to improve Mediastation and other open keyboards with your wise remark

Thanks Diki for the constructive remarks

Probably less than 5% of arranger keyboards are used for gigging, the other 95% are used purely in the home or a home studio, and for these users (The majority) the amount of time required to set a keyboard up, has little relevance.

Bill

Thing is, of the 95% of arranger not used for gigging, probably 95% of THOSE are used by people with insufficient technical skill to DO all the extensive tweaking, translating, setting up VSTi libraries, etc., etc. an open arranger NEEDS. Heck, a fairly high % get used by people who can barely PLAY, let alone know a damn thing about programming.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it... Just because you have the TIME doesn't say a damn thing about whether you have the skill. For one reason or another, the VAST majority of arranger players don't have what it takes to use an open arranger. Thing is, as always, if one of the manufacterers took the time, got off his fat arse, whatever, and set the damn thing up so that at least OOTB it bettered the closed arranger, it would sell like hotcakes. But rather than provide TOTL sounds and styles, they are sold as 'kitcars' and you build it yourself. As I have been saying forever, 99.999% of people just want to BUY a car to drive around. They DON'T want to have to build it first.

Just face the facts, guys. You are a TINY, tiny minority of arranger players, somehow thinking that your way of doing things is commoner than it is...

You've acknowledged that gigging arranger users are in the minority. Now take the next step...

Here is the thing. If 99.99 percent of “arranger” players can not operate an electronic musical instruments and require everything to be made for them exactly how they need it OOTB, then an open arranger is not for them period.
And, not even a closed arranger is for them because I don’t know that a closed arranger meets everyone of the 99.99 percent of that population.

The open arranger/workstation is the next progressive step in keyboard technology. You want arrangers to attract more younger persons. You want arrangers to handle more modern music? Then an open arranger is the logical step to accomplishing those task.
Modern players are accustomed to using Loop based programs, VSTs and mixing and matching thing. That is the market for open arrangers. Or and by the way, to beauty of an open arranger is that it is not just an open arranger.

An open Arranger/workstation gives the user the chance to have a Motif xs and a T3 in one.

Try and answer this question from the perspective of our youth..

They don't do anything else as abusing their computer stuff in anyway possible. Did you ever wonder why the youth turns to VSt's and ableton live ?

Because that is exactly what they want, they wanna play and finetune this stuff..

Now you old men obviously should stick to the closed arrangers while Lionstracs creates an open arranger that is attractive to the youth..

Open arrangers are the only way to save the arranger market from impending doom. Because its what our youth wants...


Sadly Diki, you answer everything from your own narrow minded perspective of this world, and from your opinion i get the feeling that you think that everyone thinks just like you... You better wake up from that vision and show some interest in our youth..

Weren't you the one complaining that all arranger players are at the age of visiting a resthome for the elder any time soon? Sadly your vision about these instruments shows your age...

Innovation is what is needed, and only Mediastation is innovative enough to save the arranger market.. but i bet that soon Korg will follow this path too... And then they are a step ahead of Yamaha.

The music & songs of today's youth is mostly NOT created with Arranger KB's.....so why does anyone think today's youth needs to even learn how to play a KB.....when it's mostly computer driven, drag a few loops, VST's, sounds tracks, beats, etc, etc, ....no need for an arranger KB that someone needs to bear down and learn how to play an instrument.Yes arrangers as we know them will change obviously incorporating newer technology but that's just because of the every changing technology.....doesn't mean everyone has to embrace it or is it good for your needs versus the older units......I hope they hurry and bring out the new so that the old will come down in price and is just as good for players to use & own also.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-02-2010).]

So after the last 3 posts...Diki, you really think Dom should care what 5% of Old people
want today or what 95 of millions of people
would want in the years to come?
That is the reality.

Well i might be wrong but i still think i am correct, even what i do is something that i look
for in the future, i am not looking just for 5-6 pottential buyers today only.

A nice idea will be with the new LSPC James tool or by Qsampler tool.
Creating different simple and complex GM/GS/GX GIGA soundbank, with the all files located in ONE directory only and add the LSCP file loaded.

Under thus way we can create a lot of nice and different giga soundank and the user can choose to startup with the one that like better.

IF soomeone there will make it, I wil help to to sell too, now I have a lot of user that request me this new sounds too.
let me know..

Bottom line is that 95% of those kids are also too technically challenged to use an MS, and already are doing EXACTLY what they want to with their laptops and home computers. As we watch the gigging scene basically disappear (I'm talking about PAID gigs, which is how you can afford a TOTL keyboard!), what's the POINT of a gigging VSTi setup?

Maybe in your area it's different, but here, no kids are replacing the older players and playing modern loop based music in commercial venues. Only DJ's are doing that. And they are laptop jockeys to a man.

When the price of open keyboards drops down to comparable with a closed one, whether arranger or WS, WITH ALL THE CONTENT, perhaps you'll see an upswing. But when you factor in the cost of the TOTL VSTi's you are going to need to make it sound TOTL, it all starts to get outside the budget of the kids (who are hit harder by the recession than their older brethren).

My mind isn't closed by any means. My eyes are wide open to all the potential pitfalls, hidden costs, and prodigious skill needed to make a barebones keyboard the equal of a MoXS, Oasys, or even a PA2Xpro. To be honest, the only ones with closed minds round here are those who have convinced themselves that newer MUST be better, despite the fact that none of them yet has managed to make quality music on it that they aren't ashamed to post...

To 'close' your mind off to point after point of reasoned objection, and to resort to taunt and slander rather than example, all the time without the slightest SHRED of evidence that you actually DO know how this stuff all works in practice is the height of hypocrisy. The closed mind of the open arranger user...

While you continue to write and write, rather than play and play, that's all the proof I need that my opinion is the correct one.

But you also have to define what MAKING MUSIC also means...would it be something played
live as an arranger? Or someone that played home? Or if i sit on my setup and create a song
then mix it and master it and everything...if the latest is the definition of MAKING MUSIC do you
really think any Arranger or WS would come close at all to something that me or you would
produce in a studio? I personally dont think so.

I'll take you up on that offer.
My to-do list right now is finish LSPC Gen, build a GM bank for myself out of my premium content, and then I will be looking at releasing sounds for the MS/Groove.

With LSPC Gen it should be possible to merge libraries together by drag and drop too. So there's nothing stopping anyone from having the GM Bank in memory as normal and having something like OASYS ASSAULT loaded into the Synth Bank all at the same time.

Regards
James.

Just as you seem to be as well

But lets keep the prices reasonable hey?

Always do ...!!!!
I know OASYS ASSAULT is expensive but the OASYS was a very limited keyboard and due to my own forum policies at KORG Forums of not allowing any advertisements as such. I never really expected to make much from the library.

Bringing the library to the Mediastation opens up a new market and I can offer the library at a much reduced price as it supports an open format that any DAW user can also make use of.

Not that I ever do any of this for money anyway. There's near next to no profit in sound design. lol.... with that said....LSPC Gen will be released for free to Groove and Mediastation users

Man I so need to get a life.

Cheers
James

James...now that you are engaged with the MS...I think I may look at buying one.

I have the skills to do a lot with it too...and when I get this damm house built I will have a lot more time.

OR...maye I'll build one myself? If I did it would be 2 manual, pedalboard etc. a very hip modern organ using readily available MIDI components and of couse great VSTi content. Prbably use Live-Styler along with other things.

Lee S.

Hey Lee it will be good to have you on-board with the MS/Groove....

Get to it man!!!!

Dennis

This is your life, don't be sorry for it

I think it would be wonderful to do the things you can. I just never had the aptitude.

Now anything hardware related with PCs, or keyboards no problem. I even converted an 88 note M-audio Keystation Pro to a 73 note version, 6 octaves C-C (same as the Korgs).

But the programming of either software or sounds, nope..I leave that to the talented folk like yourself

My sound tweaking began and ended with the Roland JX3P , that was complicated enough LOL.

As for your software, it is REALLY generous of you to offer it to MS/Groove users free, but I think you deserve reward for effort, and I for one would be happy to pay for a licence (even if I DO help with beta testing)

Dennis

Sorry, Dennis, but the reason I am so skeptical about the open arranger is BECAUSE of my familiarity with VSTi's and loop production, not through ignorance, which I honestly believe is at the root of so much fanboy gushing here...

Yes, it OUGHT to be easy to make great music on an open keyboard, but the fact is, it is not. No more than it is easy to make great music with a computer based VSTi rig. There are issues about sound balance, response, EQ, and the like which don't plague closed keyboard users, because the factory has already done all that work for you. You take a Best Service bass guitar, marry it with a BFD drumkit, add in an Ilio piano, and a Garritan string section, and best of luck getting it all to sound cohesive. They don't record the samples in similar environments, using similar mikes and miking techniques, and just like mixing a pop piece recorded in several different studios, it's often a nightmare to get them all to gel.

And, unlike an SMF, a one-off production that you can balance elements together just for that one piece, an arranger presents different challenges, where ALL the parts need to fit together ALL THE TIME... because you never know in advance what you are going to need until you need it... No time on the gig to do that last minute EQ tweak to the floor tom so it doesn't swamp the upright bass, for instance (while it doesn't swamp the picked bass).

No, I'm not afraid of new technology, just realistic about how long it would take to hammer it into anything approaching a closed arranger's all round general usefulness. Going by the YEARS that some have had theirs and still not been proud enough of anything to post, I think I am pretty much on the mark.

Once again, I point out an arranger is NOT a WS. It isn't a Loopstation/Groove product. It is an ARRANGER. I have no problem with the MS being used as the former. It is what it is best at, after all (and what the designer, bless him, has finally decided it actually IS!). But when the same people that have been unable to produce any music not outright embarrassing in style mode continue to trumpet its' superiority as an arranger (and this isn't the forum to tout it as a WS/Groovebox), I am afraid I HAVE to say 'The Emperor STILL has no clothes'

Diki I am sure James has been using VST's as long as you have, together with a far greater depth and knowledge of soundscape design, and I am pretty damn sure I have been using VST's/Dxi's as long as you have as well.

And a couple of other MS users I could mention are way WAY above your league when it comes to it as well.

I think that as we have both the experience with VST's AND we actually OWN a Media Station/Groove keyboard, that we are better placed to make these comments than you.

You are making guesses from the sideline, trying to prove you know more than the coach.

And will you PLEASE stop using those puerile derogatory adjectives like fanboy, and gushing et al..

Dennis

........

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 05-03-2010).]

Ahahahaha this guy is getting ridiculous with all due respect to him. He IGNORES the fact that
me and hundreds of players around the world use Laptop and Controller with an ArranerSoft
for a wholle Gig and yes, all setup for the UNEXPECTED things...never had any problems.
What a waste of words...lolllllllllzzzzzzzzzz....And i personally use Kontakt and PA Arranger,
every sound coming out of Kontakt, everything on the fly and yes, Intros, Endings, Fillins,
Program changes and all...in miliseconds...and i've been doing this since 1999 and 2000
with PA80 and the begining of Reaktor, when there was no Kontakt and Giga and Goliath.
I dont know if its worth replying to ignorance...he tries to beat the fact that is already out and
functioning for ages...all he keeps saying is show some music. I've shown, more then YOU
and more then ANYONE on this forum...if you type my name has over Million hits on the net,
every single corner is full of MP3s and videos of me, on every one possible site that deals
with music and videos on the net...me being good or bad musician it doesnt matter, you are
just ignorant...if i dont have music recorded who the hell else on the world has?
I am on:
YouTube
MP3.com
MySpace
FaceBook
BasariStudios.com
SZ Forums
KorgForums
MidiEastForums
5-6 BalkanForums
Every possible European, Turkish and Middle Eastern bears my name and a link to my
website, every single page i mentioned above contains AT LEAST 150 MP3s of me...
what do you really want and need? Life? ...lollllllzzzzzzzzzzz..........
I already know your response to this...should i write it for you? No, I'll wait for you...
Yes, You Diki!

My apologies Nedim, I should have remembered to include you as one of the other people with far greater programming knowledge and experience.

Diki does seem to think (judging by the rhetoric in his posts) that he is the oracle on SZ for all to do with programming, setting up data, VST operations, studio recording, style recording, and probably a lot of other things I left out.....

Dennis

I am not showing off nor an disrespect to Diki but i bet even though he is older and more
experienced then me he still havent touched a real VST programming earlier then few of us.
I might be young but not as young, i have 34 years passed thru my ass, that is not young.
Recording Albums, or playing on Someones Album, or Producing it, or being a better
HANDS ON musician doesnt also make you a programmer or know it all. I am not the
greatest musician of all but please when Computer DAW skills are in question do not
approach me with comments and compliments...its annoying how he has an answer for
everything and he is always right even though most of the times he has no clue nor seen,
playing, programming or anything about the machines we talk. All he talks is his G70 with
stupid Step Sequencer from 15 years ago...aproach me, i will destroy you and your G70
with a stupid PA500...and i know your response to this too, dont waste your words how
your music is great and my music is Stupid and whatever as you said few times earlier
even though you know YOUR music comes from MY music and without the Music in My
culture you wouldnt have no MUSIC at all today...i am saying all this cuz i know what he
will come down to my earlier comments of my MP3s on the net...Oh, forget some Middle
Eastern music and stuff...that noone cares about...cuz he said that once to me and its said
that the music he plays today comes actually from that Middle Eastern music. My music to
him is not valid unless is western and its what he plays only....nothing else. But the sad fact
again is i can play your music, a little or a lot i do have a clue about it but you cant even grab
a single note of my music...since you called them few times like that mine and yours.
No matter what you think of me i am till Nedim from Basari Studios who did work for Ketron,
Korg and will do so in the future, who is approached by Native Instruments and Open Labs
and Liontracks...no matter how bad of a musician i am or a programmer they still approached
me and i am proud of it and yes i reserve the right to show off, it is something special cuz not
anyone or everyone has those privilegies...my point is, they are not calling you, they call me.
Why? Maybe cuz i am not good or stupid...ask them. I dont understand how he puts down
everyone in here and grabs onto something that has no base to it with his stupid 15 years
old G70...come on man, wake up, its not the 60es, unless you are stuck in there, look at the
world around, they are talking about going to Mars, there is Artificial Soft Singers that sing
way better then you, there is Keyboards that play music by themselfs, there is Computers
which can read your mind and play music already...leave your Banjo and come out of the hole.

Diki... why do you have to be so negative and totally unproductive all the time lately.

This is not the Diki I had come to respect. I can't even talk to you any more and I used to enjoy our conversations. Now it's all just Diki in lock down negativity mode all the time.

I really don't understand why you are like this these days. There's a lot you don't know mate and I don't understand why you have this fear of admitting that.

You can only ever become a wise man when you listen to others. Free your mind mate.

Regards
James

LOL, Nedim one thing I would like to suggest is you use paragraphs a little more

Makes reading a long post far easier

D

Lol Denis, i was typing from my Blackberry, hahahahaha.

I'd say it's almost time for the LOCK

Come off it Diki, all VST hosts allow you to set up Reverb, EQ etc. for every Plug-in you have loaded, and all can be saved in an overall configuration, so stop trying to emphasize a problem (Mommy it’s difficult to balance my plug-ins) that hasn’t existed for years.

If you really want to go for it then use Kore 2 http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/kore-2-software-edition/ or if you want hands on control while live http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/producer/kore-2/ which can host as many plug-ins as you want, as well as mix & match any of the voices from them, so that it seems just like using 1 plug-in. (The number of plug-ins will determined by Ram and HDD, which with modern hardware means more than you are ever going to use live)

Before you mention CPU power, Kore 2 only uses it when the voices are selected, which means worrying about CPU overload will be minimal.

EG: The Wersi can host 4 plug-ins, however if you load Kore 2 into each slot, and then (For instance) load in 12 different plug-ins to each Kore 2 used, then you have access to (4 x 12) 48 plug-ins, which as the CPU is only used on the voices selected means you have a wealth of sound to choose from, all of which can easily be balanced and saved. (And before you go on about loading times while playing, all voices are pre-loaded so there is no delay when changing between one voice and another)

In one of your previous posts in this thread you complained about the difficulty in making an open keyboard do the same as a closed keyboard
Question Diki: Why would anyone buy an open keyboard if they just wanted to make it like a closed keyboard?
To do so is just plain stupid, (Of which SZ members are not) if you wanted a closed keyboard you would buy one.

Sorry to say Diki, but you are completely out of touch with what open keyboard players want, so stop trying to make your personal hang-ups with them, sound like a fact, when it is not.

Bill

Bill, i think he is completely out of touch with reality too...English being his language
i dont think he understands it very well...he should look up the words OPEN SYSTEM.

Do you have any personal experience with Kore?

If so, how do you like it?
Do you also use the Kore controller?

you can download Kore Player for free and install to test by your self.

Hi AFG
Unfortunately Kore player lacks the performance pre-sets, and cannot load Plug-ins, only the full Kore 2 version can do this, however you can download a trial of Kore 2 to test.

Hi Bachus
I have used Kore 2 software version, and it is stonking the way you can mix & match plug-ins, combine this with what you can do with the performance pre-sets, (You can set up virtually any combination of functions, all of which can be called up with just 1 program change message) and wow, it is a cracking VST.
I will be purchasing the full version (I have been using a friend’s Kore 2 on his computer and the trial version on my Abacus) later in the year when I will be attending some college courses. (It’s available at a reduced price for students)

Hope this helps

Bill

you are right, but it is not bad for testing and it has a small sound library.

i have been away for the weekend so just catching up on his thread . Just listened to Nedims conversion demo of the korg country style.

Let me say first off that to my ears it was a useable conversion. But it was not in my ears better than the korg other than the piano used in the right hand.

Let me qualify what i am saying.

Firstly the two recordings are not done at the same levels so the Goliath demo was much louder through my speakers than the Korg demo. The bass was heavy and not balanced with the other instruments . The instruments used were not like for like. The Korg demo used either steel string and 12 string guitars in the style or just the 12 string. You can actually hear the twang of the bass string on the steel string guitar and the sound is nicely separated from the true bass guitar. Nedim what instruments did you use in the style you compared with the Korg ? I thought you probably used a nylon string in the style ? Can you note down what instruments wee used in the goliath style and compare them to the Korg and also what tracks they were on. You will probably realise that the korg styles often use two guitars tracks at the same time and you may have picked the wrong guitar for at least one of the guitar tracks. Please do a direct comparrison as the Goliath demos sounded like you used different instruments. I dont know if the steel string guitars was replaced with an electric one (which of course is your choice ) but i wanted to hear what the MS would sound like when the instruments were replaced like with like. Is that what hapened here ? Or are my ears completely wacked ? If the fault is mine and my ears are out then i wont participate in these discussions anymore simply because i am not qualified to but i know i have a keen ear. I am pretty sure they were not the same types of guitars, basses etc used .

Remember the test was that simply by using the superior VST instrument the style would sound better ? Did it ? Was it even easy trying to select the correct instruments ?

The demo underlines what dikki was saying about EQ and balance. In the Korg drum fills the sound volumes are nice and balanced and no one percusive instruments jumps out during a fill . The toms sound nice and rounded and balanced .When i turn up the volume of the korg demo so it sounds as loud as the goliath one, the bass does not boom and the kick drum does not boom and drown out the rest of the style. Thats not about volume, thats about correct EQ' tweaking. Listen again to the Goliath demo and the drum fills . The toms sound like they are being hit through paper.A floor tom does not sound like that. Thats not the fault of the sound source. Thats partly because the drums kit indivually needs to be balanced eq'd correctly to get the roundness of the toms.

I can hear the imbalance and rawness. Was i the only one that heard that ?

I know that this is all subjective. Maybe Nedim was trying to get the sound that he did.

But this test showed a very basic style conversion and dont misunderstand me its useable (but to my ears not up to the quality in terms of balance and overall cohesive sound ) of the original korg style. The the piano sounded better on the goliath demo and one of the electric guitars.i know that there are better selections of pianos and guitars on the korg than the one in the demo.

How about picking a style that obviously uses RX sounds, scrapes, muted notes dead notes and slides like a korg funk style.

This demo was no different than the one James did and i appreciate it nedim honestly i do. I have appreciated the work you have done on the Korg forum as well as here. I simply want to see how those sounds that are non musical that are integrated into the styles like the picks, scrapes, dead notes etc translate into a conversion using the best sounds like with like.

Even from this limited test i can see that the subtleties are lost when the wrong instruments, guitars , drum kits and balance are used within the converted style. I imagine it would take a fair while to even select the best drum kit as you dont know which instrumemnts in the kit are going to jump out in a fill. The choice gets harder if you are faced with maybe 4 different fills.

In my ears the goliath demo sounded more live but i would like to qualify that. I mean that in a live situation it is dificult to get the balance right and to get the right tone from your guitar and to get your drum kit mic'd up correctly. The Korg is renounded for its live sound but that does not mean imbalanced.

Dennis i have read somewhere that you wont be doing a A B demo of a style converted and played on the MS. Please reconsider. There will be lots of differences in peoples tastes but if the exact same instruments are used in an AB comparrison then the only margib=n for variance will be the skill of the style converter. the more examples fro different users that we have the more we can get a sense of how much skill is required to get a style converted beyond just acceptable. If in our experiments we find that evcen with the best sounds we cant get the styles to sound overal better then we (read i) would be wasting my time buying all these great sound libraries if i could not get the richness of sound they are capable of.

Thanks again for all your help James Nedim and Dennis.

Hi Spalding
Pity the weather was a bit of a washout over the weekend, still hopefully you had a good time.

Back to the post:
Personal preference will be different between users, (Hence my post of how do you define better) however may I make a suggestion.
The Korg is an excellent controller keyboard, and there are some excellent free VSTi available, (Check out http://www.kvraudio.com/ ) so load the VSTi of your choice on to your computer, then connect your PA1x to the computer to control the VSTi, that way you will be able to directly swap sounds, and see how easy is it is (Or not) to adjust them.
Obviously you will not be converting a style, but it should give you a good idea of how it works on the MS, and as you are setting it up, there is a better chance of getting the correct sound that you want. (You could have 100 or more different types of steel guitars available with VSTi, so it would be pot luck as to whether another user would choose one that just happens to suit you)
Hope this helps

Bill

Hi Spalding,

Yes I was considering not worrying about it as Nedim produced and excellent example of what could be done, in a short space of time.

However there is another snag..And one that I thought would be the case, but Norbert(LiveArranger developer) confirmed it for me.

Saving any editing on the LiveArranger is restricted on the demo version. And I have just had word from Dom about the the price of the full licence, and at 149 euros, its just not THAT important to me.

And to do all the work necessary to get a good A/B example up, and NOT be able to save it for my future use, just seems like a total waste of time.

I might just HAVE to get my head around Q-Tractor/Ranger instead....Although it is a LOT different to Sonar I can tell you.

Still with the big external screen option now working on the MS, I think editing will be a lot easier.

The only down side is it will take a LOT longer to get something decent sorted, in amongst the other stuff I am doing....

Sorry, but I cannot see any way around it.

I really do NOT want to spend, what to us out here is approx $275, JUST to provide a comparison demo.

Dennis

fair enough dennis. looks like its not going to happen. it just seems ridiculous that a simple AB comparrison has not been done yet with RX or mega voice alternatives used in a style on a like for like basis. this should have been done years ago. Maybe James will come through

He will have the same issue. Not being able to save edits in the Live Arranger demo version. This means any instrument changes, volume tweaks everything!

As for a comment like "Maybe James will come through", well, pop psychology like that does not work on me

I am merely stating my position, to try and engage me in guilt trips, you are wasting your time

As for one not being done years ago, well its never REALLY been fully marketed as an arranger.

The arranger modules were all tacked on, so to speak, for those who really wanted it to have that option.

Tell you what, you give me the $275 and I WILL do comparisons....Lots of em

Dennis

I'm also tied up with the programming of LSCP GEN for MS/Groove users and this takes top priority over everything else right now I'm afraid.

Regards
James

Hi Spalding, thanks for your commends and...and i agree with you on most of the points.

1. Korg's level is lower cuz i tried to do AB comparison, thats what Korg output can give
in a live situation connected to a Mixer and also thats what Goliath (in this case) on an MS.
2. In general i still believe mine is an AB comparison, given that none of the Styles were
edited...the only difference is that the Sounds in the Goliath Demo i added by my choice,
they are not what the Style itself automatically selected (that is the point of an Open System)
to actually be Open to anything on the machine.
3. Someone else on here mentioned, i think it was Diki, what would happen if we took
Korg's style and edited but we forget one thing in there...what would also happen if i took
that same style and Edit it with Goliath, same as i would on an MS, what would happen if i
took that same style and ran it thru DAW Compressors, EQ's, Limiters, Maximizers?
Do you really think any of those arranger would stand a chance to even be turned on?
Thats said it is just being fair...if you Edit the style on the Korg then i believe we both know
that the person with MS would edit his style too withh whatever Sounds he has on his MS.
4. Diki's blabbering doesnt really makes sence here since i dont think he knows anything
about what we are talking about...he tries to ignore every possible fact out there...telling him
that i STRICTLY use DAW for my arrangers on Laptops when i play Live with no flaw at ALL
to him is not enough, it has to be his word, which i respect and dont have to comment on it.
5. And to add all this into one i would ask one simple question which i asked before:
''You have a familly of 2 Kid's...why would you buy a BUS to drive them to school?''
One first has to sit down and study the basic word of Open System and then study the concept
of Open System and then thinkk if he can operate one and at the end if he has the mony to
buy it and time enough to actually set it up (which is almost the same as a Closed Synth)
and i know that for a fact cuz thats what i do for living for years. One cannot beat something
out of me and prove me wrong at something that i do for living while the other has probably
never seen it or touched in his life.

Every point, question or dedicated words above was not directed at you personally.

1. You are completely correct and i completely agree with you but as we both know none of us would
just convert the style and use it as it is, all of us would do some Balancing by their own preference.
Yes, there is better selection of Sounds on Korg but dont forget, AB requires that on both platforms,
the question is the same again, what would happen if one chosed better Sounds on Goliath?
2. Picking a Style with more complex Elements and Sounds can be done too, at east to my knowledge
and experience it will be easily achievable and fast with great results...that maybe doesnt justify you
buying an Open System keyboard but my point is that i can be actually done and not in 3 days or in
3 months as Diki says, it can be done in a reasonable ammount of time.

Remember one thing, the biggest time consuming process for me and James is actually collecting and
creating sounds, way before we even had/have an MS, once that is done all else is butter and milk.
Once i have the Sounds nothing stops me from turning a plastic Korg's style into a 12 piece live
Orchestra with any of todays available libraries in the pro music world...and i mean in 20 minutes.
Lets say 30, i dont believe it will take me that long but for the hell of it...i believe tat almost all of us
sometimes spend way more then 30 minutes on some style to make it just as we want if we like it.
To me again, it seems reasonable enough...Now, if one is looking for a Turn it On and Play machine
trust me, not You, not Me nor Diki nor anyone will EVER find one and we'll be always unhappy.

Question is not whether you would BUY a bus to take your kids to school... it's whether you would BUILD one!

I still can't find a better analogy than the kit car... most people don't want to BUILD a car to drive. They want to BUY one already built. they got places to go, people to see, and being stuck in a garage for YEARS (that's how long some of you have had your MS's) before you can go anywhere or see ANYBODY strikes me as ridiculous in the extreme.

I have been collecting VSTi's and sample sets for Akai and Kurzweil for well over ten years. I've got a pretty decent collection. And there is still NOTHING that works as an all-around, go to every time set. For the studio work I do, each song, each project demands different sounds. But an arranger is a one stop shop for sounds. When playing live, either everything you MIGHT want to do is ready to go, or you can't do it!

It is obvious beyond a doubt that everyone SAYING how quick and easy it is is completely unable to back up their words. Or they would have posted long ago.

It is neither...

As I said in my previous post Diki, “You are completely out of touch with what open keyboard players want”.
If you want easy play OOTB, (Which is what you appear to be looking for) then like I have “Always” said, buy a closed arranger, as an open system is not for you.

My suggestion Diki is; avoid threads with open keyboards in them, as they are not what you are looking for, that way users who want this type of keyboard won’t have bother keep wading through the irrelevances (To open keyboard users) you keep posting about.
Regards

Bill

Bill, this is an ARRANGER forum, and as such, I believe I know EXACTLY what the vast majority of arranger players of any stripe want. And it ain't a do-it-yourself arranger. Sorry, but them's the FACTS.

Stop confusing what I say with a general criticism of it as an open KEYBOARD. I have never faulted it as a WS or Groovebox. That's what it IS.

But as an ARRANGER, it basically blows. Now, if you can't differentiate between what I say and what you WISH I was saying, I'm sorry, I can't help you. But my criticism is aimed squarely at its' use as an ARRANGER...

Clear..?

Hi Diki
All the deep stuff is on the dedicated forums, however items that may interest others (Or requested by others) get posted on the General arranger forum, that they drift off to more in depth talk is just the way forums work.
Hopefully the above will help you understand better.
Regards

Bill

BTW should we ban arranger or expander modules off here as well, just because they don’t have keyboards attached? If so then yes arranger software could also be banned, but somehow I don’t think SZ members see it like this, (Apart from you) so live with it. (You are not the centre of the universe)

I hear you Nedim. And we are on the same page in terms of what theoretically should be able to be done on the MS. I know theoretically I could take any style from any keyboard and with enough time and skill I could tweak it on my existing Korg PA and make it sound better. An open keyboard would simple give me a wider pallet to select sounds from but that only makes my job harder not easier ha ha :-
) . What I wanted to tie down is the idea that simply by selecting “better/higher quality sounds” you can convert styles to sound better than the original. You and I know that clearly is not the case. The MS has been promoted as the mother of all arrangers and part of that claim was the ease with which styles could be made to sound better on it than the original instrument it came from.

That claim has yet to be substantiated. The claim should be tempered with these additional words:

“This entirely depends on your level of skill and available time to convert styles. Similar results can be achieved with any style conversion on any keyboard if you have the time and skill to do it. Please be aware that you will need to purchase the full license for Livearranger to save any changes that you make to styles on this product. Prices may vary”.

That would be an honest statement of fact and not the current misleading idea that has been promoted by the manufacturer either explicitly or implied for the last 7 years if the economic environment allows.

Now it looks like all bets are off because the software needed to do what the manufacturer claimed the instrument could do, does not come packaged with the instrument in any practical way. (What’s the point in having the ability to tweak styles to your hearts content if then you cant save that without buying more software?).

Anyway. Thank you all for trying to do what the manufacturer claimed could be easily done but has not thought it necessary to provide one example to support their claim.

Dennis I wasn’t baiting you :-) you are a stand up guy in my book. I hope you continue to be amazed by the MS or whatever instrument you move on to next :-) (now that’s me baiting you !).

Best of luck

Spalding (Worth)

Bit of a stretch, there, Bill... Arranger modules getting banned from here? You can't come up with something more coherent than that?

I've never advocated a complete ban on the MS. But I'm determined to keep a level of reality interjected in the middle of the unremitting fantasy island bull that surrounds the MS's use as an arranger. Wild claims are made daily by people whom it is obvious have never tried to do any of what they claim in their lives...

Or are ashamed to let us LISTEN to what they HAVE done.

Me, I've got GB's worth of stuff I have recorded using my G70. Posted several things as examples. I am prepared to let others judge my opinions by LISTENING to it. Not so the MS players. Apparently, an open arranger gives you the right to say it can do ANYTHING and never have to show us actually doing it!

And if you are swayed by that sort of empty rhetoric, I've got some land in Florida you might be interested in. Just send me the money. You can't POSSIBLY want to actually see it first, can you? Just take my word on it..... OK, maybe I haven't actually SEEN it myself, but it OUGHT to be good...

Just send me the money first...

One thing everyone must remember is that the extent one can use the MS to its full potential depends on the recourses (sounds and VSTs) available to the user.


I could buy a DAW software program to make radio ready music. But, unless I have the relevant sounds (VSTs or hardware keyboard), I am not going to produce a radio ready recording.

And, it looks like the MS users are busy using their MS arranger they want to use it, not the limited way some people want them to use it.

The point of an MS is to make the style sound the way “you” want it to sound. How “you” want it to sound may not be how “I” want it to sound.

So why should “you” put up a demo when “you” and “I” do not have the same taste?

“The point of an MS is to make the style sound the way “you” want it to sound. How “you” want it to sound may not be how “I” want it to sound.”

Genesys even that statement is misleading. How i want it to sound depends on my ability to make the style sound how i want it to sound regardless as to the tools in front of me !

Your comments should equally be qualified as above .

The MS is not the Nirvana it is being promoted as being for style conversions to whatever your tastes may be.

I don't think anyone on this forum is going to buy a MS/Groove strictly for it's arranger functions. So what, if someone long ago and far away said it would make a great arranger. Who cares. Why keep banging away at something no one cares about anyway? Why keep trying to 'save' people that clearly don't want to be saved. Once you've made your point(s) and the handful of people who are interested in the MS have responded with 'thanks, I hear you, but I still like the machine', then maybe it's time to let it go and move on. Everyone here is over 21 and capable of making up their own minds. Plus, as long as they're paying for their own equipment with their own money, why should anyone else be concerned about what they like or what they purchase?

The point is, we can (and should) point out what we like and dislike about a piece of equipment but should NOT insist that everyone else share OUR point of view. What we believe is valid for us, what the other guy believes is valid for him. We need to respect that. Once we've presented (our view of) the information and the 'other guy' chooses to ignore it and ends up making a purchasing mistake, well that's his right; he's an adult. Maybe he'll listen to you next time, maybe he WON'T, that's his right, too. We all know what happens when someone DEMANDS that everyone come around to their way of thinking. We should probably try to avoid that here on SZ, no matter how passionately we feel about something (musical). JMO.

chas

Hi Spalding
Let’s say an MS user has (With on-board VSTi) 75 Steel String Guitars available to choose from. (Remember the Komplet 6 VSTi I have mentioned previously has over 7000 sounds available to the user, so 75 Steel String Guitars is a drop in the ocean)

Which one of the 75 does he choose to replace the Steel String Guitar in a converted Korg style that would be acceptable to you?

Bill

He should use his two ears to answer that question.

I really don't get any of the arguments against all this. It's no different than loading a midi file into your keyboard. To improve any midi based file on your keyboard you simply select other sounds and adjust the volume.

If people are saying that they can't or won't do that, well what the hell are they doing even reading this thread ?

Nobody is saying that the MS/Groove is universally better for every users.

James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-05-2010).]

Abacus it’s not about selecting the right steel guitar that sounds right to me. If you have 75 steel guitars better than the Yamaha or korg steel guitars that are present in the original style and you think it would make the style you are converting sound better than the original, then simply replace it with JUST ONE STEEL GUITAR.I mean you have over 75 that are better, just pick one. Let me hear it. The purpose of the demo’s that have been requested (granted mostly by me) was not about seeing whether selecting an electric guitar or banjo or Koto or sitar or zither if you feel like it could b done on the MS. That’s not even being debated. How is anyone able to make any comparison with the original style like that? I am looking at apples to apples. That’s not rocket science and I am amazed at the amount of avoidance this one request has generated over the last 7 years. If it was just about making styles sound different to the original or unique to the user then anyone can do that on any arranger using no skill in whatever way they want and the user could validly make the same boast about style creation using a Casio or bontempi.

And James, I know some people are content just to swap the GM sounds on a midi file and then perform with that as it is. If all you are hearing is midi notes then I guess that will do I suppose…unless you heard the original file that had been programmed on the original instrument that showcased the original instruments capabilities. But we can agree to differ James , it wont affect my view of the very good foundation you are working out for future MS users and I am a believer in most aspects of the MS (and korgs karma feature as an arranger tool ) purely thanks to your efforts. That’s saying something. If korg integrate karma in its arranger products then it would change the game again!

Actually that’s something I might start as a thread on the Korg forum using you demo if that’s ok with you?

But Chas is right pretty much on every count. Enough has been said already. Thanks Chas.

I enjoyed the discussion anyway and we did achieve something in getting a musical example or two of what the MS is capable of as an arranger in the hands of experienced professional musicians. I guess anyone interested (if I haven’t bored them all to tears) can draw their own conclusions from those…….Cheers worth.

Ok.. don't take what I'm saying directed at you, this is a general reply to everyone.

To even care what the style sounded like on the original keyboard is an utter waste of time because no Lionstracs keyboard will ever sound like a Yamaha if you load a Yamaha style, just as no Yamaha will ever sound like a KORG if you load a KORG style into that.

Everyone needs to accept that fact and get over it. Cause and effect guys....!!! There is a argument here on this subject at all. You simply cannot make use of RX notes or other items that trigger layers in sounds unless you clone the sounds.... and since that's not going to happen why is anyone even talking about comparing.

It's like this..... You get a style from whatever keyboard, it DOES NOT MATTTER.... and you load it into your Mediastation and you assign the best sound you have. The end result of this will depend on the sounds you picked and what your two ears tell you. Either way you will still end with a Style that's totally playable. There are no technical aspects of anything that will prevent that from every happening unless your completely tone deaf and lack the ability to follow some simply instructions.

If you want more and better sounds... then you do what we are doing right now which is building our own GM bank from premium content.

The better the sounds the more layers you have, the longer the samples, and the more of them you get per individual sound. Which automatically = superior sounds which will perform any midi data you throw at them in a superior way, more dynamics and everything will just sound far more realistic.

So wondering what an original style sounded like is an utter waste of time.



That's all anyone CAN do. You can't reproduce RX trigger notes on any other keyboard unless you clone the sounds just as you can't do the same with Yamaha mega vocies and so on.

You have to also understand that the reason those technologies even exist is because the sounds don't have the layers a premium Giga file is going to have or the responses it will give at certain velocities.

This trigger data is very specific to the sounds selected, but yet I you assign a premium giga file it will reproduce the straight midi notes in far more detail than the original sound. Sure the triggers won't be there, but the dynamics of the instrument will respond far better to the note velocity.

So there is a balance to all this. One one hand you won't be able to get access to the triggers, but on the other hand your sounds are superior in every way imaginable and they respond to straight midi notes far better than the original sounds.



Now that's something that nobody could ever even attempt to emulate by conversion processes. If KORG put KARMA inside an arranger.... well game over for all other closed arrangers.



Go for it. You never know what the future may hold. All I can say is that KORG see everything that goes on. More so than you can ever know.

Regards
James

Hello James;

Is it possible to program ones own triggers into the midifiles? Either from scratch, or by taking an RX style or Megavoice style and using the upgraded GM/GS bacnks ( i.e. giga, vst like you and nedim are working on) and add triggers to various instruments in the styles?

I recall that Wersi has an OAA ( open arts arranger) software upgrade that converts Tyros mega syles to the Wersi sound banks ( improved samples) The converted styles then played wersi sounds in place of the Yamaha sound bank including triggers and the styles sounded considerably better then the original Tyros styles. More realistic, live, dynamic etc... So it must be possible to do this some how

Thanks;
BN

HI BlkNotes.



Yes as the triggers are usually nothing more than a simple note values and very specific pitches and velocities. For example in KORG land they use very high notes and assign the effect in there. Like C7 to C9 could contain a range of guitar effects for example. Or if on any of the keys a velocity is received over a certain value, that triggers off a samples too.

This is exactly how Giga and other premium libraries have always worked.




KORG actually bests everyone in this regard because from the Pa1X Series onwards there is a new funtion in arrangers that allows it to scan the midi file and actually apply RX Technology (trigger notes) to the midi data to get the most from the sounds assigned to the midi file.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-05-2010).]

Hi BN
Wersi created and programmed a special voice bank for the Yamaha styles that matched the Yamaha voices, thus no conversion of style is required.
It can be done manually, but it is not an easy job, particularly as most of the Yamaha Mega voices are played using Midi instruments. (IE; A Mega Guitar is played and programed by using a Midi Guitar, rather than a keyboard etc.)
Hope this clarifies it for you.

Bill

Actually, Yamaha has had this same feature for some time...since the Tyros1 at least.

Ian

You do realise that the T1 only had 10 Mega VOices ? Mega Voices are not a technology. It's a gimmick for people who don't understand anything about sampling.

KORG's RX/DNC is a technology and it applies to everything on the keyboard.

James



[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-05-2010).]

Actually the T1 still had the idea first...and Korg obviously copied it...no shame really, as it is done quite a bit in the industry.

Ian

No worse gimmick than anything else... RX/DNC idea copied from Yamaha...no shame.

That's why those who are smart, handsome, very cool, and extremely modest use Yamaha arrangers.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-05-2010).]

And those who are smarter, handsomer, cooler, modester, and certainly geekier , use open keyboards :P



Dennis

Of course they do, and only because we closed arranger players gave them permission to indulge in that illusion.

It's only fair.