you are right, but it is not bad for testing and it has a small sound library.

i have been away for the weekend so just catching up on his thread . Just listened to Nedims conversion demo of the korg country style.

Let me say first off that to my ears it was a useable conversion. But it was not in my ears better than the korg other than the piano used in the right hand.

Let me qualify what i am saying.

Firstly the two recordings are not done at the same levels so the Goliath demo was much louder through my speakers than the Korg demo. The bass was heavy and not balanced with the other instruments . The instruments used were not like for like. The Korg demo used either steel string and 12 string guitars in the style or just the 12 string. You can actually hear the twang of the bass string on the steel string guitar and the sound is nicely separated from the true bass guitar. Nedim what instruments did you use in the style you compared with the Korg ? I thought you probably used a nylon string in the style ? Can you note down what instruments wee used in the goliath style and compare them to the Korg and also what tracks they were on. You will probably realise that the korg styles often use two guitars tracks at the same time and you may have picked the wrong guitar for at least one of the guitar tracks. Please do a direct comparrison as the Goliath demos sounded like you used different instruments. I dont know if the steel string guitars was replaced with an electric one (which of course is your choice ) but i wanted to hear what the MS would sound like when the instruments were replaced like with like. Is that what hapened here ? Or are my ears completely wacked ? If the fault is mine and my ears are out then i wont participate in these discussions anymore simply because i am not qualified to but i know i have a keen ear. I am pretty sure they were not the same types of guitars, basses etc used .

Remember the test was that simply by using the superior VST instrument the style would sound better ? Did it ? Was it even easy trying to select the correct instruments ?

The demo underlines what dikki was saying about EQ and balance. In the Korg drum fills the sound volumes are nice and balanced and no one percusive instruments jumps out during a fill . The toms sound nice and rounded and balanced .When i turn up the volume of the korg demo so it sounds as loud as the goliath one, the bass does not boom and the kick drum does not boom and drown out the rest of the style. Thats not about volume, thats about correct EQ' tweaking. Listen again to the Goliath demo and the drum fills . The toms sound like they are being hit through paper.A floor tom does not sound like that. Thats not the fault of the sound source. Thats partly because the drums kit indivually needs to be balanced eq'd correctly to get the roundness of the toms.

I can hear the imbalance and rawness. Was i the only one that heard that ?

I know that this is all subjective. Maybe Nedim was trying to get the sound that he did.

But this test showed a very basic style conversion and dont misunderstand me its useable (but to my ears not up to the quality in terms of balance and overall cohesive sound ) of the original korg style. The the piano sounded better on the goliath demo and one of the electric guitars.i know that there are better selections of pianos and guitars on the korg than the one in the demo.

How about picking a style that obviously uses RX sounds, scrapes, muted notes dead notes and slides like a korg funk style.

This demo was no different than the one James did and i appreciate it nedim honestly i do. I have appreciated the work you have done on the Korg forum as well as here. I simply want to see how those sounds that are non musical that are integrated into the styles like the picks, scrapes, dead notes etc translate into a conversion using the best sounds like with like.

Even from this limited test i can see that the subtleties are lost when the wrong instruments, guitars , drum kits and balance are used within the converted style. I imagine it would take a fair while to even select the best drum kit as you dont know which instrumemnts in the kit are going to jump out in a fill. The choice gets harder if you are faced with maybe 4 different fills.

In my ears the goliath demo sounded more live but i would like to qualify that. I mean that in a live situation it is dificult to get the balance right and to get the right tone from your guitar and to get your drum kit mic'd up correctly. The Korg is renounded for its live sound but that does not mean imbalanced.

Dennis i have read somewhere that you wont be doing a A B demo of a style converted and played on the MS. Please reconsider. There will be lots of differences in peoples tastes but if the exact same instruments are used in an AB comparrison then the only margib=n for variance will be the skill of the style converter. the more examples fro different users that we have the more we can get a sense of how much skill is required to get a style converted beyond just acceptable. If in our experiments we find that evcen with the best sounds we cant get the styles to sound overal better then we (read i) would be wasting my time buying all these great sound libraries if i could not get the richness of sound they are capable of.

Thanks again for all your help James Nedim and Dennis.

Hi Spalding
Pity the weather was a bit of a washout over the weekend, still hopefully you had a good time.

Back to the post:
Personal preference will be different between users, (Hence my post of how do you define better) however may I make a suggestion.
The Korg is an excellent controller keyboard, and there are some excellent free VSTi available, (Check out http://www.kvraudio.com/ ) so load the VSTi of your choice on to your computer, then connect your PA1x to the computer to control the VSTi, that way you will be able to directly swap sounds, and see how easy is it is (Or not) to adjust them.
Obviously you will not be converting a style, but it should give you a good idea of how it works on the MS, and as you are setting it up, there is a better chance of getting the correct sound that you want. (You could have 100 or more different types of steel guitars available with VSTi, so it would be pot luck as to whether another user would choose one that just happens to suit you)
Hope this helps

Bill

Hi Spalding,

Yes I was considering not worrying about it as Nedim produced and excellent example of what could be done, in a short space of time.

However there is another snag..And one that I thought would be the case, but Norbert(LiveArranger developer) confirmed it for me.

Saving any editing on the LiveArranger is restricted on the demo version. And I have just had word from Dom about the the price of the full licence, and at 149 euros, its just not THAT important to me.

And to do all the work necessary to get a good A/B example up, and NOT be able to save it for my future use, just seems like a total waste of time.

I might just HAVE to get my head around Q-Tractor/Ranger instead....Although it is a LOT different to Sonar I can tell you.

Still with the big external screen option now working on the MS, I think editing will be a lot easier.

The only down side is it will take a LOT longer to get something decent sorted, in amongst the other stuff I am doing....

Sorry, but I cannot see any way around it.

I really do NOT want to spend, what to us out here is approx $275, JUST to provide a comparison demo.

Dennis

fair enough dennis. looks like its not going to happen. it just seems ridiculous that a simple AB comparrison has not been done yet with RX or mega voice alternatives used in a style on a like for like basis. this should have been done years ago. Maybe James will come through

He will have the same issue. Not being able to save edits in the Live Arranger demo version. This means any instrument changes, volume tweaks everything!

As for a comment like "Maybe James will come through", well, pop psychology like that does not work on me

I am merely stating my position, to try and engage me in guilt trips, you are wasting your time

As for one not being done years ago, well its never REALLY been fully marketed as an arranger.

The arranger modules were all tacked on, so to speak, for those who really wanted it to have that option.

Tell you what, you give me the $275 and I WILL do comparisons....Lots of em

Dennis

I'm also tied up with the programming of LSCP GEN for MS/Groove users and this takes top priority over everything else right now I'm afraid.

Regards
James

Hi Spalding, thanks for your commends and...and i agree with you on most of the points.

1. Korg's level is lower cuz i tried to do AB comparison, thats what Korg output can give
in a live situation connected to a Mixer and also thats what Goliath (in this case) on an MS.
2. In general i still believe mine is an AB comparison, given that none of the Styles were
edited...the only difference is that the Sounds in the Goliath Demo i added by my choice,
they are not what the Style itself automatically selected (that is the point of an Open System)
to actually be Open to anything on the machine.
3. Someone else on here mentioned, i think it was Diki, what would happen if we took
Korg's style and edited but we forget one thing in there...what would also happen if i took
that same style and Edit it with Goliath, same as i would on an MS, what would happen if i
took that same style and ran it thru DAW Compressors, EQ's, Limiters, Maximizers?
Do you really think any of those arranger would stand a chance to even be turned on?
Thats said it is just being fair...if you Edit the style on the Korg then i believe we both know
that the person with MS would edit his style too withh whatever Sounds he has on his MS.
4. Diki's blabbering doesnt really makes sence here since i dont think he knows anything
about what we are talking about...he tries to ignore every possible fact out there...telling him
that i STRICTLY use DAW for my arrangers on Laptops when i play Live with no flaw at ALL
to him is not enough, it has to be his word, which i respect and dont have to comment on it.
5. And to add all this into one i would ask one simple question which i asked before:
''You have a familly of 2 Kid's...why would you buy a BUS to drive them to school?''
One first has to sit down and study the basic word of Open System and then study the concept
of Open System and then thinkk if he can operate one and at the end if he has the mony to
buy it and time enough to actually set it up (which is almost the same as a Closed Synth)
and i know that for a fact cuz thats what i do for living for years. One cannot beat something
out of me and prove me wrong at something that i do for living while the other has probably
never seen it or touched in his life.

Every point, question or dedicated words above was not directed at you personally.

1. You are completely correct and i completely agree with you but as we both know none of us would
just convert the style and use it as it is, all of us would do some Balancing by their own preference.
Yes, there is better selection of Sounds on Korg but dont forget, AB requires that on both platforms,
the question is the same again, what would happen if one chosed better Sounds on Goliath?
2. Picking a Style with more complex Elements and Sounds can be done too, at east to my knowledge
and experience it will be easily achievable and fast with great results...that maybe doesnt justify you
buying an Open System keyboard but my point is that i can be actually done and not in 3 days or in
3 months as Diki says, it can be done in a reasonable ammount of time.

Remember one thing, the biggest time consuming process for me and James is actually collecting and
creating sounds, way before we even had/have an MS, once that is done all else is butter and milk.
Once i have the Sounds nothing stops me from turning a plastic Korg's style into a 12 piece live
Orchestra with any of todays available libraries in the pro music world...and i mean in 20 minutes.
Lets say 30, i dont believe it will take me that long but for the hell of it...i believe tat almost all of us
sometimes spend way more then 30 minutes on some style to make it just as we want if we like it.
To me again, it seems reasonable enough...Now, if one is looking for a Turn it On and Play machine
trust me, not You, not Me nor Diki nor anyone will EVER find one and we'll be always unhappy.

Question is not whether you would BUY a bus to take your kids to school... it's whether you would BUILD one!

I still can't find a better analogy than the kit car... most people don't want to BUILD a car to drive. They want to BUY one already built. they got places to go, people to see, and being stuck in a garage for YEARS (that's how long some of you have had your MS's) before you can go anywhere or see ANYBODY strikes me as ridiculous in the extreme.

I have been collecting VSTi's and sample sets for Akai and Kurzweil for well over ten years. I've got a pretty decent collection. And there is still NOTHING that works as an all-around, go to every time set. For the studio work I do, each song, each project demands different sounds. But an arranger is a one stop shop for sounds. When playing live, either everything you MIGHT want to do is ready to go, or you can't do it!

It is obvious beyond a doubt that everyone SAYING how quick and easy it is is completely unable to back up their words. Or they would have posted long ago.

It is neither...