Glenn agreed......that's why an open keyboard like Media-station units could be the future also. Being able to update with purchasing another KB makes sense to me.

There's a slight problem with this, though, Donny... Do you know why Detroit won't make a car that will last for 100 years? That's right, everybody would buy one, and then never buy another car again!

Continued development of a product is based on sales. The money that comes in pays for the NEXT improvement. Now, what happens when you buy an open keyboard, that you never have to buy another keyboard with? Where does the money come from for these improvements you want? It isn't coming in from new keyboard sales, that's for sure!

What's the non-musician equivalent of the open arranger? Yep, the computer. But the computer model isn't that you buy a computer, and then you never have to buy another one, merely keep updating the software. If this were the case, there wouldn't BE any innovation in computers, we would already have all we need... In fact, for many people, the computer is the one piece of gear they update the MOST. And the sales that that constant upgrading generates pays for the innovation that makes you WANT to upgrade.

Remind you of anything? Yep, closed arrangers! Every new feature is payed for by the sale of the previous generation, then incorporated into the new, you go out and buy it, and that pays for the NEXT new feature. But take that sale out of the picture, what pays for the innovation?

Let's paint a picture, and assume that open arrangers are bought by everyone that can use them (which, as technical to operate as they are, is still, IMO, a tiny part of the total market). Now, after that saturation point, what pays for innovation in its' OS? What pays for continued improvement? What pays for Dom's breakfast, once all those that ARE going to buy one, do?

Planned obsolescence is what drives the computer industry. I'm not sure that without this, a keyboard manufacturer (a tiny, tiny industry compared to just about anything you can think of) can survive. From what I read here, it seems that a large portion of the membership turns over their arranger every three years or so, maybe a bit longer, but I know I am considered an oddity expecting ten years or so out of an arranger! But just imagine where the industry would be if we ALL kept our arrangers that long... Sales would only be a FRACTION of where they are now. How many features we take for granted today would not have been developed, because the R&D money would be a fraction, too?

Extrapolate that onto the open keyboard concept, and the rosy picture of a never-ending improvement path, without a never-ending hardware upgrading path (not mere componentry, but the entire arranger) may not be what you anticipate.

Computer software manufactures get the R & D resources from the money they get from users paying for the upgrades, and new users (Of which there is always a continuous supply) that buy it because of the new features added.
Open keyboards are no different. (Unless you’re suicidal enough to give away large software upgrades for free)

Think about it Diki, would you hang on to the same software on your keyboard for 10 years if you could upgrade it relatively cheaply (At a fraction of the cost of changing the board) to get the latest and greatest.
The software upgrade route also usually means that you don’t lose features, they just get added to. (Just think if all you had to do was to buy a software upgrade to get all the features of a G70 for a G1000 without losing any existing features)

Bill

'Computer software manufactures get the R & D resources from the money they get from users paying for the upgrades, and new users (Of which there is always a continuous supply) that buy it because of the new features added.
Open keyboards are no different. (Unless you’re suicidal enough to give away large software upgrades for free)'

I had to qoute this Abacus. Isnt this Doms cast iron gaurantee ? That each and every OS upgrade would be free for the MS ???

If computers existed in the tiny numbers that open keyboards are in, do you honestly think that software innovation would proceed at the pace that computer software does? There are MILLIONS of users for most popular software titles. And only a few hundreds, or maybe thousands (tops) of MS's and Grooves out there.

Look at the PRICE of custom bespoke software... it can run to thousands of dollars per upgrade for specialized fields. Without the sales of hardware to support it, this is what happens to highly specialized software.

My G70 had TWO major upgrades. FOR FREE. But imagine what the price of those upgrades would have been, for the tiny few hundreds that bought G70's, if they never made the G70 and simply introduced software for a G1000 that added the same capability. To break even, it would have had to have cost a significant portion of what a hardware G70 actually cost...

If you look at Dom's promise of continued, never-ending OS development FOR FREE, in the light of what a small user base he has, without constant sales of new product (after all, apparently, you buy ONE, you never buy a second!) and factor in what a tiny number of potential users he might get (compared to the ease of use of conventional keyboards), that pace of innovation may slow considerably, or he may need to amend that promise of free improvement...

hmmm
does the promise of free OS updates still apply ?

i just noticed the Liontracs website has an interesting disclaimer now

last update: December 22-2008)

'LIONSTRACS SRL reserves the right to make changes at any time, without prior notice, regarding software updates and 3th party software available.'

What does this mean ?

I, along with many other MS/Groove users, are very grateful and appreciative of the service that Dom and LionsTracs provides.

However, that said, I would be just as happy if Dom charged a fee for major upgrades.

For example if he charged say, 50 Euro for the next major upgrade to 5.0..No problem at all, well for me anyway. And I do not think it would be a problem for most of us here who are MS users.

As always LionsTracs ALWAYS provide bug fixes, and minor improvements for free. (well I do think they should continue to charge a small server cost fee, but thats just my opinion, after all he is NOT a benevolent society )

Or perhaps offer a yearly subscription. Say 100 Euro a year for all upgrades??? Excluding bug-fixes.

However, I DO think he gets so much grief and complaint about ANY extra fees (or as he says "stressing me") from European customers, that he just could not be bothered. Take the recent small (and it was small) fee he charged/wanted to charge for folks downloading from the website as an example. And that was ONLY to cover server expenses, nothing else.

I think, he would rather just get on with being creative, and continue the development.

In any case, I think the sales of the MS are far greater than ANYONE here can know.

So just quietly, between you, me, and the gatepost, I think he is doing okay.

Especially in Europe. You only have to see the number of re-sellers appearing for the LionsTracs product range to realise that.

And they ARE selling product!!!

I think the ball has well and truly started rolling for Dom and LionsTracs.
The trickle that started a few years back, has developed into a much bigger stream, and as the word goes futher, it will develop into a flood.

There would be many Open Labs users, who would be SERIOUSLY looking to replace with the Groove series, not to mention Motif and Fantom users as well.

So my view is as long as the fees are reasonable, go for it Dom. No complaint from me.

Dennis

sorry but I disagree with you.

There is no software company which asks money for updates. Wersi or openlabs are perhaps only ones, if they ask for money i do not know about this.

Each software manufacturer brings after so many years maybe 1 or 2 or 3 years completely new software version. you pay for new versions with new gui interface. completely different design another type of use, based on new hardware and O.S etc. ......................

but if you use open source software that provided freely given away but is based on donations, you do not have to pay but you can donate if you like it(do not forget open source does not always mean free of charge). There are many open source software based on donations. There are even free software for Windows and Mac based on donations and they are good and stable. Some ask even not for donation because they are backed by large companies.

free update makes hardware and software companies stronger and more reliable to end users. but a totally new version is another story.




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-21-2010).]

Hi AFG
Have a look on any software manufactures websites, and you will find both upgrades and full versions. (The upgrades are cheaper as if you already have a previous version many of the features are already in it)
This has been common practice since the at least 60s, (Or possibly even earlier) although it only became mainstream in the 80s.
Regards

Bill

you say upgrade, upgrade is not the same as update.maby I misread your first post so sorry.

for upgrade they ask you for money but updates are free.you upgrade over several years.

but still there are plenty of software makers who only ask for donation or even there are software free of charge even if you download new upgrades.

it depends on what you want, to use. while there is more to use. times change there are more and more good free and open source software based on donations and even without donations for windows too.

a good example for for musicare Ubuntu Studio or 64Sudio, but both are base on linux.


[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-21-2010).]